Giant Bomb asked Cory Barlog about recent Labor Issue debate in video game industry

[z1yin9c]

edit: timestamp 46:08. it is a audio interview, no spoiler in the interview, interviewer didn't finish the game
really don't want to quote directly from the audio, I am lazy and just want people to go to GB website.

edit:

Well, I have too much time on my hands. Here's the full quote in question:

--------
Brad Shoemaker: You mentioned, you know, like five plus years of work. You know, people being there at three in the morning and stuff like that. I feel like labor in game development has become kind of a hot topic as of late. Do you have any thoughts on how you guys handled things, in retrospect, now that you guys are on the other side of it? Like, how did you handle that?

Cory Barlog: I mean, it's always a tricky thing for us, we, we really... We depend on the passion of the people there, right? When I was talking about what our studio used to be, this idea of... My second week at the studio, I was at the studio, three in the morning burning a TGS demo disc. Because I cared, not because anybody asked me to be there. In fact, there was probably 25 people there, and none of 'em needed to be there. There needed to be one person there, just to burn the disc. And we were all staying because we were so excited. We finished God of War II, we stayed until like two or three in the morning burning, you know, gold candidate discs. And then instead of just playing for like two minutes to test it at work, we played for like an hour and a half, and just everybody around watching me play because we cared, we were really into it. And I think this is a similar thing that, while we go through our ups and downs and people's doubts, I think, at its heart, when everyone starts seeing that what we're making is something special, it just feels like everybody puts so much into it. The first level, you know, it was completely re-arted even though nobody asked for it. That they were just like, "I wanna redo one of the trees." And then all of a sudden, three weeks later, I had a producer running in my office and yelling at me, like, "Why did you have them redo the art of everything, we're never gonna finish this game" and I'm like, "I didn't-- What're you talking-- What's happening?" Right? And then I go find out that they just weren't happy with it. Right? And it's that level of perfection, that level of drive, that, you know, I guess to an outsider, they'd say, "Oh, everybody works really hard." But it's like, most people, they're doing it because they love this. They're doing it because it means something. And the entertainment industry is very different, right? When people are at their, their jobs that're not related, I think, to being judged by the entire public on its end result, it's a very different thing to say like, "I didn't, I don't stay late filling out these reports." 'Cause you're not being judged by the world, right? Like, what we put out there, the entire world judges us of whether or not we've worked hard enough, right? So the same people that probably say, "I really sympathize with you guys, and that sucks that you guys have to work hard" are the same people that're gonna tell you, "Get gud. Why don't you guys work harder? This game sucks. Why isn't it as good as Red Dead," right? And it's like... It is a weird thing, but it's pervasive throughout all entertainment. Like you look at guys in movies and it's the same thing. nobody wants to put out a bad movie. Everybody's working their butt off trying to do something great. And it's even more painful when it's not great, right? And I mean, I've worked on my share of really crappy games, right? And that isn't to say that people didn't work hard, they didn't put everything they had into it. It is just bad, right? There's no way to put lipstick on that pig, man. They're just bad games. And when you get an opportunity to potentially work on something that's good... There's a lot of people in this business that're gonna put everything they've got into it.
--------

TD;DR: Cory dodged the intended question and talked instead about why people working on games work overtime (they're passionate about their work, and what they're working on is being judged by the public).

Click to shrink...

It is the last question in the interview, about in the last 8 minutes. Brad asked about recent developer unionizing effort.

Recently Cory made some waves because of that viral video about developers working hard on projects and sacrificing a lot and delivering a really good game from any aspect. But his response, from what I interpreted, is not fair to people who working on talking about games or even other developers. What he said to me is that every developer should be considered to be given a pass by reviewer or consumer, totally he avoided the employers' role in treating devs. it seems that the abuse of people talking shit on internet is the greatest threat to how developer lives a life.

I totally understand he is not in good position to talk about his employer publicly, and I would appreciate he had responsed to Brad that " this is a hard issue to talk about" or " I don't think the industry is mature enough to go for organizing labor", or " we need to talk about it".

I don't think people talking or showing about video games need to be more close to developers. I believe the opposite, they are too close. And those developers or voice actors are close to video game personality on internet are not representative of most of people working on games I believe.


Really appreciate Brad asking that, listened to so many interviews from cory, this is the only one question I wanted to hear. Really anticipate Jason from Kotaku will have an interview soon.

https://www.giantbomb.com/podcasts/god-of-god-of-war/1600-2314/
edit: that video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR7IX5RTPPA&t=84s

I love Cory this person more than god of war the game, he is such sincere person and I believe he is trying to do good to his fellow co-worker and all the devs. But at his position that he delivered really good product with a lot of hard work i don't think he helped them with that response.

P.S: people don't understand this post. Cory's response is really elusive and you can interpret in a lot of ways. But it is not an answer.

 

[Cokesouls]

I don't understand

 

[Neiteio]

I read the OP and I'm not clear on what's being said here. Also can't watch video at the moment.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

You need to quote his actual response and put it in the OP if you want people to discuss it

 

[deepFlaw]

Your OP could be a little more clear; you might want to link the viral video for context because it's not viral enough that I've heard of it personally, which I imagine could be true for others. Admittedly, I'm not interested in GoW but I'm surprised I didn't see anything about it since I usually see talk about controversies around crunch.

Anyway, if I'm following this correctly, the topic is that Brad asked him about crunch and he gave a disappointing response?

 

[AuthenticM]

are you quoting what he said or are these your words?

 

[reclaimerzzzzz]

I can't quite comprehend what you're trying to communicate across in the OP, also a timestamp was where this discussion took place would be very helpful, that is a 54 minute podcast.

Also, at the very least you should post the question and response verbatim, what you've posted is simply your interpretation of what he supposedly said.

Also, you say his answer is elusive and not taking a stand but at the same time you wish he had given a non-answer?

 

[Daniel Westlake]

My dude put the actual quote in the post.

 

[HStallion]

Cory has talked about how making God of War has strained his relationship with his family and the other issues in making such a gigantic polished product. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the OP but he hasn't been that elusive on these things even if he hasn't given a definitive statement on the subject.

 

[Gobias-Ind]

Can't really understand the message in the OP nor can I watch the whole hour but I've got a feeling I need to hurry up and finish GoW before I do understand.

 

[jack_package_200]

Industry needs to unionize.

 

[UltraGashInferno]

As it's written, it looked to me like the OP is saying that Cory deflected and said the real problem is games journalism/criticism/fans on the internet and I'm really hoping that's not even close to what Cory's answer was, right?

 

[z1yin9c]

Cory has talked about how making God of War has strained his relationship with his family and the other issues in making such a gigantic polished product. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the OP but he hasn't been that elusive on these things even if he hasn't given a definitive statement on the subject.

Click to shrink...

Yes, but in the question he was basically saying that devs love working late. And working late without a pay or not is not even an discussion or not.
His answer is transferring the question back to interviewer in some sense, like "just don't hate bad games people work hard on, working overtime with pay is not important but we made bad games with terrible responses is so important to us"

 

[Alberto Robert]

As it's written, it looked to me like the OP is saying that Cory deflected and said the real problem is games journalism/criticism/fans on the internet and I'm really hoping that's not even close to what Cory's answer was, right?

Click to shrink...

I think so.

 

[kennyamr]

I just listened to that, starting at 46:15.

What he basically said was that people at Santa Monica worked extra hard, not because they were told to, but because they knew they were doing something special.

He also mentions that they world judges dev teams if they out out bad games so they, again, worked extra hard to make sure the game was excellent and met everyone's expectations.

That's pretty much it to my understanding.

 

[imbarkus]

Surely you must understand that anyone who is a manager of people must consider unionization a failure of management: to treat employees in a way which lets them feel they have a voice and a recourse, and to work in a way that lets them live a balanced and fruitful life.
You're never going to get a statement advocating or even hinting at advocating labor organization from a project director. Closest you ever got was Jason Rubin at the DICE 2004 summit, and homeboy left his position shortly (real shortly) thereafter IIRC.

I believe in fair treatment of workers and labor, my father was a Teamster. But the hard truth is the U.S. developers face the same challenges as U.S. manufacturing labor:
In a global market like today's, if you want to benefit the lives of American laborers, you need to organize Indonesia and benefit the lives of laborers everywhere.
Because companies are just outsourcing to the cheap labor there, and eliminating the more expensive labor here.

And organizing in Indonesia will be the dangerous, at-a-gunpoint work that it was in America at the turn of the last century.

 

[KrigareN-]

Can't really understand the message in the OP nor can I watch the whole hour but I've got a feeling I need to hurry up and finish GoW before I do understand.

Click to shrink...

Lmao

 

[Dance Inferno]

OP is not very clear, not sure I understand what Cory said.

 

[z1yin9c]

As it's written, it looked to me like the OP is saying that Cory deflected and said the real problem is games journalism/criticism/fans on the internet and I'm really hoping that's not even close to what Cory's answer was, right?

Click to shrink...

That was I interpreted. He avoid putting publisher or employer in the response. The "answer" is all about dev work hard and they want to work late, it is the bad response like you game is not as good as red dead, are hurting devs.

 

[resident_UA]

P.S: people don't understand this post. Cory's response is really elusive and you can interpret in a lot of ways. But it is not an answer.

Click to shrink...

So is this thread meant to be a rorschach test or something?

In any case - shitty working conditions are unacceptable, BUT employment law in the US is shit. So unless there's a union, I don't know what can be done.

 

[z1yin9c]

I can't quite comprehend what you're trying to communicate across in the OP, also a timestamp was where this discussion took place would be very helpful, that is a 54 minute podcast.

Also, at the very least you should post the question and response verbatim, what you've posted is simply your interpretation of what he supposedly said.

Also, you say his answer is elusive and not taking a stand but at the same time you wish he had given a non-answer?

Click to shrink...

No, I don't mind simply avoiding the answer, nobody knows what is really right. He was doing the it is the people don't like bad games and express those feelings hurting devs more

 

[Courage]

Brad asks him how his team handled the pressure and pointed to their passion, I don't think the question was aimed to be anything beyond that.

 

[Bhonar]

Yes, but in the question he was basically saying that devs love working late. And working late without a pay or not is not even an discussion or not.
His answer is transferring the question back to interviewer in some sense, like "just don't hate bad games people work hard on, working overtime with pay is not important but we made bad games with terrible responses is so important to us"

Click to shrink...

That was I interpreted. He avoid putting publisher or employer in the response. The "answer" is all about dev work hard and they want to work late, it is the bad response like you game is not as good as red dead, are hurting devs.

Click to shrink...

And? You are free to disagree with Barlog.

But Barlog is not obligated to feel the same way as you on this topic. It's just different opinions, it's not "wrong".

Personally I'm very anti-union in general (outside video games), so I have no problem with it.

If you're pro-union, that's fine too but don't expect everyone to feel the same way.

 

[Animal Liberation Ⓥ]

Brad asks him how his team handled the pressure and pointed to their passion, I don't think the question was aimed to be anything beyond that.

Click to shrink...

Agreed.

 

[ReginaldXIV]

Sure it must be awesome to want to work late hours on something you believe in and have the motivation to put in that crunch time. If GoW ended up being a mismanaged hellhole where you were still forced to work the same amount of extra hours on something that you know deep down is a horrible shit show, then the narrative would be much different.

 

[reclaimerzzzzz]

No, I don't mind simply avoiding the answer, nobody knows what is really right. He was doing the it is the people don't like bad games and express those feelings hurting devs more

Click to shrink...

Ok, my mistake in misinterpretation. Although, I didn't interpret his response as deflection on people who don't like bad game, he just said it is different for the entertainment industry as the success of a game or movie is based on purely subjective feelings to the game and no developer wants to put his/her name on a bad game so they do their best to make a good game. Even then it is not crazy to expect that some devs don't necessarily like the people that criticize them for being lazy, you can see some of those sentiments on here.

 

[QuixoticNeutral]

Irrespective of the case for or against unionization, it's a bit presumptuous of enthusiast mags and podcasts to take up the mantle of actively campaigning for it based on their limited and selectively sourced knowledge of working conditions in the industry. (Game journalist groupthink strikes again.) In the tech sector, crunch is a cultural thing, driven as much or more by peer pressure than by demanding bosses. It isn't a deflection at all if Barlog is suggesting that developers push themselves past limits they would rationally tolerate due to a sense of duty to the quality of the project at hand. That's the kind of thing that leads to the burnout for which the industry is rightly notorious, which in turn leads to alarming turnover in staff, but to frame it as a traditional labour dynamic of bosses overstretching their underlings is woefully naïve and misunderstands why many enter the industry in the first place.

 

[z1yin9c]

If you're pro-union, that's fine too but don't expect everyone to feel the same way.

Click to shrink...

I don't know. I don't know his opinion from what he said. I was expecting a very political way saying "it is a hard question" or directly saying "it is a direction" or " it is not good for the industry". Not like "ok everyone wants to burn their hours. And it is the people's response matter the most"

edit: If he just said people wants to work late passionately, I would understand his stand. That is cool

 

[z1yin9c]

Irrespective of the case for or against unionization, it's a bit presumptuous of enthusiast mags and podcasts to take up the mantle of actively campaigning for it based on their limited and selectively sourced knowledge of working conditions in the industry. (Game journalist groupthink strikes again.) In the tech sector, crunch is a cultural thing, driven as much or more by peer pressure than by demanding bosses. It isn't a deflection at all if Barlog is suggesting that developers push themselves past limits they would rationally tolerate due to a sense of duty to the quality of the project at hand. That's the kind of thing that leads to the burnout for which the industry is rightly notorious, which in turn leads to alarming turnover in staff, but to frame it as a traditional labour dynamic of bosses overstretching their underlings is woefully naïve and misunderstands why many enter the industry in the first place.

Click to shrink...

And that is totally great answer. But why did he just drag in people who don't like some games and express those feelings. Your answer is great and you answer can be a lot more obscure and still be great. Or just say game journalists don't understand the situation, totally valid, and it is really hard to argue.

 

[Deleted member 721]

Im confused with this thread

 

[DemonSwordsman]

Put the quote not your interpretation. Not able to watch video yet but like many others said op is very confusing

 

[TheModestGun]

It seems like you are trying to stir controversy OP. It's pretty clear Corey was only speaking from his own personal experience and the choices he's made and the pressure to perform because games are judged so harshly.

He does not make any statements on his stance on unions or what he thinks development culture SHOULD be. Just what it HAS been for him.

and frankly I can empathize. As an artistic type myself, I know what that fear of judgment can be when working on a big project. It drives you to go well beyond behavior of a normal job setting, and the reality is, to make something of a high caliber that is professional, you have to be passionate in the arts.

 

[LifeLine]

This thread really is pointless without a written quote especially because as you mentioned, his answer can be "interpreted in a lot of ways"

 

[Deleted member 1185]

What did Cory actually say?

 

[lordlad]

Eh..op either u r on a phone typing full of typos or English is not your native language. Your post doesn't make any sense

 

[z1yin9c]

Sure it must be awesome to want to work late hours on something you believe in and have the motivation to put in that crunch time. If GoW ended up being a mismanaged hellhole where you were still forced to work the same amount of extra hours on something that you know deep down is a horrible shit show, then the narrative would be much different.

Click to shrink...

That is a point I want to express too. They made a great thing and in a position to represent all the devs and worker in the industry and Cory just ignored all the people in not a good or happy position in work.
It is usually this case in the business. It is people who made a great product and received praise to represent people who did not. And people who made not so stellar things also worked hard and created value.

 

[Einbroch]

"I mean, it's always tricky thing for us. We depend on the passion of the people there, right? When I was talking about what our studio used to be, this idea...my second week at the studio, I was at the studio at 3 in the morning burning a TGS demo disk because I cared. Not because anyone asked me to be there, in fact, there were probably 25 people there and none of them needed to be there, there needed to be one person there to burn the disk, but we were so excited." It goes on like this.

He reiterates that any crunch was self-imposed in his case. I'm sure it's hell elsewhere, and maybe he's lying or covering something up, but that's what he said.

I don't know where the OP is coming from. Nothing in their OP is even remotely mentioned. I guess he deflects the question, but he does give an answer from his perspective.

 

[TheModestGun]

That is a point I want to express too. They made a great thing and in a position to represent all the devs and worker in the industry and Cory just ignored all the people in not a good or happy position in work.
It is usually this case in the business. It is people who made a great product and received praise to represent people who did not. And people who made not so stellar things also worked hard and created value.

Click to shrink...

I think you are putting a lot of pressure and expectations on someone without knowing explicitly how he feels on the subject or what he was actually trying to say in the interview.

Could it have been a good opportunity to talk about the issue? Sure? Why is it an expectation that he has to take some big fucking grandstand on the issue? Maybe he feels he is ill equipped to make any strong statement one way or the other. Brad also said the interview needed to end and sprang it as the last question so he didn't exactly get a lot of time to have a fleshed out conversation full of subtlety.

So why is this an issue?

 

[the_wart]

You're never going to get a statement advocating or even hinting at advocating labor organization from a project director.

Click to shrink...

ACKHTUALLY, Josh Sawyer (director at Obsidian, did Fallout: NV and Pillars of Eternity) gave a talk about crunch where he explicitly discussed unionization as a potential solution. So this is not totally true. Though of course Obsidian, as one of the few remaining mid-sized developers out there, has a lot more flexibility than a large multinational corporation. I agree that I wouldn't expect that from someone working for Sony, Microsoft, EA, etc.

 

[z1yin9c]

Eh..op either u r on a phone typing full of typos or English is not your native language. Your post doesn't make any sense

Click to shrink...

All of those ... Really recommend to listen to it at 46:05. It is an audio file without spoilers. It is a long answer. I don't think his answer is clear and even misleading for me. But his unclear answer is really worth talking about imo.

 

[z1yin9c]

I think you are putting a lot of pressure and expectations on someone without knowing explicitly how he feels on the subject or what he was actually trying to say in the interview.

Could it have been a good opportunity to talk about the issue? Sure? Why is it an expectation that he has to take some big fucking grandstand on the issue? Maybe he feels he is ill equipped to make any strong statement one way or the other. Brad also said the interview needed to end and sprang it as the last question so he didn't exactly get a lot of time to have a fleshed out conversation full of subtlety.

So why is this an issue?

Click to shrink...

No....... I did not expect a stand at all, it is the most natural and human thing to avoid the question.
I thought I make it clear. I think it is fair to say Cory pointed out that some people is from the outside devs circle want to make this union thing an issue but they are the exact the same people express dislike about some bad games. That doesn't make any sense for me. I am not upset about any stand or without a stand about dev union thing. I am upset about people trying to say in review process you need to be "gentle" and people worked hard on this.

 

[Kuno]

Well, I have too much time on my hands. Here's the full quote in question:

--------
Brad Shoemaker: You mentioned, you know, like five plus years of work. You know, people being there at three in the morning and stuff like that. I feel like labor in game development has become kind of a hot topic as of late. Do you have any thoughts on how you guys handled things, in retrospect, now that you guys are on the other side of it? Like, how did you handle that?

Cory Barlog: I mean, it's always a tricky thing for us, we, we really... We depend on the passion of the people there, right? When I was talking about what our studio used to be, this idea of... My second week at the studio, I was at the studio, three in the morning burning a TGS demo disc. Because I cared, not because anybody asked me to be there. In fact, there was probably 25 people there, and none of 'em needed to be there. There needed to be one person there, just to burn the disc. And we were all staying because we were so excited. We finished God of War II, we stayed until like two or three in the morning burning, you know, gold candidate discs. And then instead of just playing for like two minutes to test it at work, we played for like an hour and a half, and just everybody around watching me play because we cared, we were really into it. And I think this is a similar thing that, while we go through our ups and downs and people's doubts, I think, at its heart, when everyone starts seeing that what we're making is something special, it just feels like everybody puts so much into it. The first level, you know, it was completely re-arted even though nobody asked for it. That they were just like, "I wanna redo one of the trees." And then all of a sudden, three weeks later, I had a producer running in my office and yelling at me, like, "Why did you have them redo the art of everything, we're never gonna finish this game" and I'm like, "I didn't-- What're you talking-- What's happening?" Right? And then I go find out that they just weren't happy with it. Right? And it's that level of perfection, that level of drive, that, you know, I guess to an outsider, they'd say, "Oh, everybody works really hard." But it's like, most people, they're doing it because they love this. They're doing it because it means something. And the entertainment industry is very different, right? When people are at their, their jobs that're not related, I think, to being judged by the entire public on its end result, it's a very different thing to say like, "I didn't, I don't stay late filling out these reports." 'Cause you're not being judged by the world, right? Like, what we put out there, the entire world judges us of whether or not we've worked hard enough, right? So the same people that probably say, "I really sympathize with you guys, and that sucks that you guys have to work hard" are the same people that're gonna tell you, "Get gud. Why don't you guys work harder? This game sucks. Why isn't it as good as Red Dead," right? And it's like... It is a weird thing, but it's pervasive throughout all entertainment. Like you look at guys in movies and it's the same thing. nobody wants to put out a bad movie. Everybody's working their butt off trying to do something great. And it's even more painful when it's not great, right? And I mean, I've worked on my share of really crappy games, right? And that isn't to say that people didn't work hard, they didn't put everything they had into it. It is just bad, right? There's no way to put lipstick on that pig, man. They're just bad games. And when you get an opportunity to potentially work on something that's good... There's a lot of people in this business that're gonna put everything they've got into it.
--------

TD;DR: Cory dodged the intended question and talked instead about why people working on games work overtime (they're passionate about their work, and what they're working on is being judged by the public).

 

[z1yin9c]

Well, I have too much time on my hands. Here's the full quote in question:

--------
Brad Shoemaker: You mentioned, you know, like five plus years of work. You know, people being there at three in the morning and stuff like that. I feel like labor in game development has become kind of a hot topic as of late. Do you have any thoughts on how you guys handled things, in retrospect, now that you guys are on the other side of it? Like, how did you handle that?

Cory Barlog: I mean, it's always a tricky thing for us, we, we really... We depend on the passion of the people there, right? When I was talking about what our studio used to be, this idea of... My second week at the studio, I was at the studio, three in the morning burning a TGS demo disc. Because I cared, not because anybody asked me to be there. In fact, there was probably 25 people there, and none of 'em needed to be there. There needed to be one person there, just to burn the disc. And we were all staying because we were so excited. We finished God of War II, we stayed until like two or three in the morning burning, you know, gold candidate discs. And then instead of just playing for like two minutes to test it at work, we played for like an hour and a half, and just everybody around watching me play because we cared, we were really into it. And I think this is a similar thing that, while we go through our ups and downs and people's doubts, I think, at its heart, when everyone starts seeing that what we're making is something special, it just feels like everybody puts so much into it. The first level, you know, it was completely re-arted even though nobody asked for it. That they were just like, "I wanna redo one of the trees." And then all of a sudden, three weeks later, I had a producer running in my office and yelling at me, like, "Why did you have them redo the art of everything, we're never gonna finish this game" and I'm like, "I didn't-- What're you talking-- What's happening?" Right? And then I go find out that they just weren't happy with it. Right? And it's that level of perfection, that level of drive, that, you know, I guess to an outsider, they'd say, "Oh, everybody works really hard." But it's like, most people, they're doing it because they love this. They're doing it because it means something. And the entertainment industry is very different, right? When people are at their, their jobs that're not related, I think, to being judged by the entire public on its end result, it's a very different thing to say like, "I didn't, I don't stay late filling out these reports." 'Cause you're not being judged by the world, right? Like, what we put out there, the entire world judges us of whether or not we've worked hard enough, right? So the same people that probably say, "I really sympathize with you guys, and that sucks that you guys have to work hard" are the same people that're gonna tell you, "Get gud. Why don't you guys work harder? This game sucks. Why isn't it as good as Red Dead," right? And it's like... It is a weird thing, but it's pervasive throughout all entertainment. Like you look at guys in movies and it's the same thing. nobody wants to put out a bad movie. Everybody's working their butt off trying to do something great. And it's even more painful when it's not great, right? And I mean, I've worked on my share of really crappy games, right? And that isn't to say that people didn't work hard, they didn't put everything they had into it. It is just bad, right? There's no way to put lipstick on that pig, man. They're just bad games. And when you get an opportunity to potentially work on something that's good... There's a lot of people in this business that're gonna put everything they've got into it.
--------

TD;DR: Cory dodged the intended question and talked instead about why people working on games work overtime (they're passionate about their work, and what they're working on is being judged by the public).

Click to shrink...

Thanks... can I put this in OP? or is it proper to ask this?....

 

[TheModestGun]

No....... I did not expect a stand at all, it is the most natural and human thing to avoid the question.
I thought I make it clear. I think it is fair to say Cory pointed out that some people is from the outside devs circle want to make this union thing an issue but they are the exact the same people express dislike about some bad games. That doesn't make any sense for me. I am not upset about any stand or without a stand about dev union thing. I am upset about people trying to say in review process you need to be "gentle" and people worked hard on this.

Click to shrink...

Ah, I get what you are saying. Yeah, well I don't think he really made that claim. I think he was more pointing out that in the Arts, no one wants to put out something that sucks, so naturally there is a lot of pressure to do everything you can to make sure it doesn't. I don't think what he said was a criticism of reviewers. Just the reality of it. People expect a good game, and as artists, people want to make sure their art represents them well.

 

[Principate]

Well, I have too much time on my hands. Here's the full quote in question:

--------
Brad Shoemaker: You mentioned, you know, like five plus years of work. You know, people being there at three in the morning and stuff like that. I feel like labor in game development has become kind of a hot topic as of late. Do you have any thoughts on how you guys handled things, in retrospect, now that you guys are on the other side of it? Like, how did you handle that?

Cory Barlog: I mean, it's always a tricky thing for us, we, we really... We depend on the passion of the people there, right? When I was talking about what our studio used to be, this idea of... My second week at the studio, I was at the studio, three in the morning burning a TGS demo disc. Because I cared, not because anybody asked me to be there. In fact, there was probably 25 people there, and none of 'em needed to be there. There needed to be one person there, just to burn the disc. And we were all staying because we were so excited. We finished God of War II, we stayed until like two or three in the morning burning, you know, gold candidate discs. And then instead of just playing for like two minutes to test it at work, we played for like an hour and a half, and just everybody around watching me play because we cared, we were really into it. And I think this is a similar thing that, while we go through our ups and downs and people's doubts, I think, at its heart, when everyone starts seeing that what we're making is something special, it just feels like everybody puts so much into it. The first level, you know, it was completely re-arted even though nobody asked for it. That they were just like, "I wanna redo one of the trees." And then all of a sudden, three weeks later, I had a producer running in my office and yelling at me, like, "Why did you have them redo the art of everything, we're never gonna finish this game" and I'm like, "I didn't-- What're you talking-- What's happening?" Right? And then I go find out that they just weren't happy with it. Right? And it's that level of perfection, that level of drive, that, you know, I guess to an outsider, they'd say, "Oh, everybody works really hard." But it's like, most people, they're doing it because they love this. They're doing it because it means something. And the entertainment industry is very different, right? When people are at their, their jobs that're not related, I think, to being judged by the entire public on its end result, it's a very different thing to say like, "I didn't, I don't stay late filling out these reports." 'Cause you're not being judged by the world, right? Like, what we put out there, the entire world judges us of whether or not we've worked hard enough, right? So the same people that probably say, "I really sympathize with you guys, and that sucks that you guys have to work hard" are the same people that're gonna tell you, "Get gud. Why don't you guys work harder? This game sucks. Why isn't it as good as Red Dead," right? And it's like... It is a weird thing, but it's pervasive throughout all entertainment. Like you look at guys in movies and it's the same thing. nobody wants to put out a bad movie. Everybody's working their butt off trying to do something great. And it's even more painful when it's not great, right? And I mean, I've worked on my share of really crappy games, right? And that isn't to say that people didn't work hard, they didn't put everything they had into it. It is just bad, right? There's no way to put lipstick on that pig, man. They're just bad games. And when you get an opportunity to potentially work on something that's good... There's a lot of people in this business that're gonna put everything they've got into it.
--------

TD;DR: Cory dodged the intended question and talked instead about why people working on games work overtime (they're passionate about their work, and what they're working on is being judged by the public).

Click to shrink...

Use of the word passion is massive red flag among the discussion of how much people care and level of commitment. Employees can show passion and commitment without doing for example 90 hour weeks (and lets be honest if everyone around you is doing 90 hour weeks how likely are you to buck that trend.

 

[Kuno]

Thanks... can I put this in OP? or is it proper to ask this?....

Click to shrink...

Yep, that's fine.

 

[z1yin9c]

Ah, I get what you are saying. Yeah, well I don't think he really made that claim. I think he was more pointing out that in the Arts, no one wants to put out something that sucks, so naturally there is a lot of pressure to do everything you can to make sure it doesn't. I don't think what he said was a criticism of reviewers. Just the reality of it. People expect a good game, and as artists, people want to make sure their art represents them well.

Click to shrink...

And the GOW team delivered a great thing. He is the person people are interviewing and people want to listen to. And at his moment he is really persuasive. Imo, game journalists are under appreciated. They do some stupid or even bad things but they are important. The problem in game reviewers or reporters is definitely not that they don't have empathy to people work on games.

 

[UltraGashInferno]

Well, I have too much time on my hands. Here's the full quote in question:

--------
Brad Shoemaker: You mentioned, you know, like five plus years of work. You know, people being there at three in the morning and stuff like that. I feel like labor in game development has become kind of a hot topic as of late. Do you have any thoughts on how you guys handled things, in retrospect, now that you guys are on the other side of it? Like, how did you handle that?

Cory Barlog: I mean, it's always a tricky thing for us, we, we really... We depend on the passion of the people there, right? When I was talking about what our studio used to be, this idea of... My second week at the studio, I was at the studio, three in the morning burning a TGS demo disc. Because I cared, not because anybody asked me to be there. In fact, there was probably 25 people there, and none of 'em needed to be there. There needed to be one person there, just to burn the disc. And we were all staying because we were so excited. We finished God of War II, we stayed until like two or three in the morning burning, you know, gold candidate discs. And then instead of just playing for like two minutes to test it at work, we played for like an hour and a half, and just everybody around watching me play because we cared, we were really into it. And I think this is a similar thing that, while we go through our ups and downs and people's doubts, I think, at its heart, when everyone starts seeing that what we're making is something special, it just feels like everybody puts so much into it. The first level, you know, it was completely re-arted even though nobody asked for it. That they were just like, "I wanna redo one of the trees." And then all of a sudden, three weeks later, I had a producer running in my office and yelling at me, like, "Why did you have them redo the art of everything, we're never gonna finish this game" and I'm like, "I didn't-- What're you talking-- What's happening?" Right? And then I go find out that they just weren't happy with it. Right? And it's that level of perfection, that level of drive, that, you know, I guess to an outsider, they'd say, "Oh, everybody works really hard." But it's like, most people, they're doing it because they love this. They're doing it because it means something. And the entertainment industry is very different, right? When people are at their, their jobs that're not related, I think, to being judged by the entire public on its end result, it's a very different thing to say like, "I didn't, I don't stay late filling out these reports." 'Cause you're not being judged by the world, right? Like, what we put out there, the entire world judges us of whether or not we've worked hard enough, right? So the same people that probably say, "I really sympathize with you guys, and that sucks that you guys have to work hard" are the same people that're gonna tell you, "Get gud. Why don't you guys work harder? This game sucks. Why isn't it as good as Red Dead," right? And it's like... It is a weird thing, but it's pervasive throughout all entertainment. Like you look at guys in movies and it's the same thing. nobody wants to put out a bad movie. Everybody's working their butt off trying to do something great. And it's even more painful when it's not great, right? And I mean, I've worked on my share of really crappy games, right? And that isn't to say that people didn't work hard, they didn't put everything they had into it. It is just bad, right? There's no way to put lipstick on that pig, man. They're just bad games. And when you get an opportunity to potentially work on something that's good... There's a lot of people in this business that're gonna put everything they've got into it.
--------

TD;DR: Cory dodged the intended question and talked instead about why people working on games work overtime (they're passionate about their work, and what they're working on is being judged by the public).

Click to shrink...

That's more in line with what I expected- fairly neutral and non-committal response. Dude just got a blank check and unlimited time to make this game, I don't think he's about to lead the charge for unionization, Sony probably treats him great. If anything, I'd guess he's in too comfy a position to talk about the issue in detail. I've never heard of Sony's dev teams having that sweatshop atmosphere like Rockstar or EA where everyone is made to feel expendable.

People probably did work some crazy over time at points in this game's development. I think one thing he was indirectly saying was that it takes more than 9 to 5 or sometimes people have the momentum and just want to keep going late into the night

 

[TheModestGun]

And the GOW team delivered a great thing. He is the person people are interviewing and people want to listen to. And at his moment he is really persuasive. Imo, game journalists are under appreciated. They do some stupid or even bad things but they are important. The problem in game reviewers or reporters is definitely not that they don't have empathy to people work on games.

Click to shrink...

But again, that isn't what he said.

 

[TheChungusAmongUs]

Well, I have too much time on my hands. Here's the full quote in question:

--------
Brad Shoemaker: You mentioned, you know, like five plus years of work. You know, people being there at three in the morning and stuff like that. I feel like labor in game development has become kind of a hot topic as of late. Do you have any thoughts on how you guys handled things, in retrospect, now that you guys are on the other side of it? Like, how did you handle that?

Cory Barlog: I mean, it's always a tricky thing for us, we, we really... We depend on the passion of the people there, right? When I was talking about what our studio used to be, this idea of... My second week at the studio, I was at the studio, three in the morning burning a TGS demo disc. Because I cared, not because anybody asked me to be there. In fact, there was probably 25 people there, and none of 'em needed to be there. There needed to be one person there, just to burn the disc. And we were all staying because we were so excited. We finished God of War II, we stayed until like two or three in the morning burning, you know, gold candidate discs. And then instead of just playing for like two minutes to test it at work, we played for like an hour and a half, and just everybody around watching me play because we cared, we were really into it. And I think this is a similar thing that, while we go through our ups and downs and people's doubts, I think, at its heart, when everyone starts seeing that what we're making is something special, it just feels like everybody puts so much into it. The first level, you know, it was completely re-arted even though nobody asked for it. That they were just like, "I wanna redo one of the trees." And then all of a sudden, three weeks later, I had a producer running in my office and yelling at me, like, "Why did you have them redo the art of everything, we're never gonna finish this game" and I'm like, "I didn't-- What're you talking-- What's happening?" Right? And then I go find out that they just weren't happy with it. Right? And it's that level of perfection, that level of drive, that, you know, I guess to an outsider, they'd say, "Oh, everybody works really hard." But it's like, most people, they're doing it because they love this. They're doing it because it means something. And the entertainment industry is very different, right? When people are at their, their jobs that're not related, I think, to being judged by the entire public on its end result, it's a very different thing to say like, "I didn't, I don't stay late filling out these reports." 'Cause you're not being judged by the world, right? Like, what we put out there, the entire world judges us of whether or not we've worked hard enough, right? So the same people that probably say, "I really sympathize with you guys, and that sucks that you guys have to work hard" are the same people that're gonna tell you, "Get gud. Why don't you guys work harder? This game sucks. Why isn't it as good as Red Dead," right? And it's like... It is a weird thing, but it's pervasive throughout all entertainment. Like you look at guys in movies and it's the same thing. nobody wants to put out a bad movie. Everybody's working their butt off trying to do something great. And it's even more painful when it's not great, right? And I mean, I've worked on my share of really crappy games, right? And that isn't to say that people didn't work hard, they didn't put everything they had into it. It is just bad, right? There's no way to put lipstick on that pig, man. They're just bad games. And when you get an opportunity to potentially work on something that's good... There's a lot of people in this business that're gonna put everything they've got into it.
--------

TD;DR: Cory dodged the intended question and talked instead about why people working on games work overtime (they're passionate about their work, and what they're working on is being judged by the public).

Click to shrink...

Did he really dodge the question?

He answered based on behalf of SSM and what he saw, that people worked overtime because they were passionate about the game they were making. And the question was about how SSM handled it.

It was about how SSM handled it, not "what do you think of the current labor controversies"