100%. Sometimes you have to take baby steps. If a company gets chastised every time it does something right for "not being perfect yet" then nobody's going to be motivated to try.
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Gillette’s inspiring new ad addressing toxic masculinity asks: “Is this the best a man can get?”
- Thread starter MouldyK
- Start date
Oh no my fragile masculinity
This is a blanket statement that can be applied to literally every corporation in America/the world. It's not worth bringing up as a way to discredit efforts made.
It makes it more unfocused. Statements towards men advancing a version of masculinity that isn't fucking garbage for once shouldn't be obliged to also say 'oh yeah women you too' for the sake of the same thin-skinned fragility that powers 'all lives matter' and '#notallmen' and nasal interjection "ACKCHTUALLY" hand-wringing about whether or not the message is 'complete' enough.
The message is plenty complete. No need to muddy the water and make people who think women are part of the problem feel better.
I guess this is the cue that i need to abandon this thread, I'm ok with arguing people but I can't stand passive aggressiveness from people that don't even attempt to engage in the conversation. Have fun with the rest of the thread. I'm out.
Firstly, I think the ad was perfectly fine.
Secondly if this was my company, I would record these calls and make a separate ad with the screaming people in it and " This is what we mean " in the tagline
Bring up #MeToo but also say "and women you're also part of the issue too"
Amazing clarity.
Fantastic adverstising.
Extremely concise.
Amazing clarity.
Fantastic adverstising.
Extremely concise.
The cue that you needed to abandon this thread was that nobody even for a moment was buying into your bullshit.
Men, especially white men and double-plus-especially the type of white men who comprise a lot of YouTube's userbase, really don't like being told that they aren't already perfect as they are
I don't know why y'all are entertaining this Hefty goon who is clearly arguing in bad faith. Do like I just did and put him on your ignore list. That poster isn't here to have a nuanced discussion or listen to anyones point of view, lol.
It's fun to watch this thread go on. Every few pages an obvious troll shows up, says something super inflammatory, a number of people call them out for it and the original poster cries about how mean everyone is and disappears into the night. You'd think after all these years there'd be different tactics.
I don't get it. What part of that video do you watch and are like "No! I want to keep doing that!" I mean you're fucking weird if you watch that and are like "yes, I want to keep doing all these things"
This is an absolutely fantastic idea. Would they have to pay the shitlords who called in, though? Or if they had that "this call is being recorded" bit at the beginning of the phone call would that cover them? If they kept the callers anonymous it would be absolutely hilarious to see a lawsuit started where they outed themselves as the callers in an attempt to get paid.
Keep it anonymous with a short explanation on what is happening. If they put themselves in the firing line so be it.
Why do these trolls always follow the same pattern?
"Oh no, some guy found out my bullshit. Better publicly say I'm leaving the thread"
They really should do that. God it would be so incredible.
Trust me when I say this: some people just suck and there's not much to be done. Everyone answering a phone at your agency is probably going to get some of that for a while, if you guys can I'd do something nice for them.
Fucking LOL
Posts like these give me life, keep 'em coming :)
I think it's more like: "But I don't do any of these things! I respect women already* and I'm a good person! This ad is an attack on my entire gender! Wahhhhhh!"
* bonus point for "I have daughters/sisters and was raised by a loving single mom" of course
You'd think that if that was the case, and it didn't apply to them, they'd just move the fuck on.
and for the last two "Midnight Jon reports them and they get duration-pending bans"
if someone could tell me what font face is being used in that comic so I can make the dialogue-box edit as seamless as possible, i'd appreciate it
Hahaha... what the fuck? He who points fingers is usually the most guilty. Can't believe people could say such stupid things.
one of the two dozen other comic fonts on the internet, probably
This whole "but what about women" is deflection 101. Its the less honest version of "the real issue are women!".
Anyway, did this with Comic Sans and it looks a little weird but WHATEVER there's a JOKE HERE
You eventually ignored all of my posts when I tried to engage with you so I guess I wasted my time. Bounce out anyway, I guess.
You know that saying, "if I stepped on your toes, just say ouch..."
A lot of men don't like saying ouch. Because it means accepting responsibility for the culture they directly participate in and contribute to. It makes them uncomfortable. We see this all the time, really: people trying to ease away from the reality of things that make them uncomfortable.
If you're going to make a claim that something is wrong with masculinity and how it's been distorted into something toxic, then a company like Gillette should also admit that they were part of the problem as well. Remember, this is the same company that did these:
(marketing fail due to products being sent out to the wrong demographics, but the message is still weird, shaving somehow arbitrarily makes you a manly man? I get that they're a shaving company but this was unnecessary)
(speaks for itself, the idea of women as a passive observer and property to be acquired by men)
And if you want to bring women into the equation:
(wtf is "shave like a woman?")
Keep in mind that women are generally charged a premium for shaving products compared to men (aka "pink tax"), which is incredibly ironic considering Gillette created the whole "women grooming" industry out of the sexist mentality that women should be expected to be "shaved clean" for their man.
Idk why you're resorting to the lame "well nothing would have satisfied you anyway" argument. I think I'm being fair, especially as it's ridiculously easy for companies to capitalize on a social movement with zero accountability, which in turn starts to lessen its influence and runs the risk of diluting the message (less of a concern in this specific case, but it is a central problem with Nike and Kaepernick. His message has long been lost thanks to idiots and Nike trying to make a quick buck off of his struggles). All I'm saying is, make a commercial where you admit you were part of the problem instead of just writing meaningless text in a press release, and showing life experiences. Show that you actually meant a word of what you said.
Of course advertising influences everything, but there comes a certain point when advertising starts to become toxic and serve as a "culture script" for how men and women should behave. This is why I can't take your "sex sells" argument seriously. Yes, sex sells, but there is a difference between the typical "sex sells" marketing that we see on a regular basis (as seen in the older Gillette ads) that leads to men having ridiculous expectations of how women should behave vs. "sex sells" where positive elements are shown and re-affirmed (for instance, beauty standards changing to better represent the average women), and where expectations on all genders have changed.
It's not like I'm unaware they have been poor on gendered issues or that they are in fact a part of the culture they were saying needs to get better. Originally you said they should address it. I gave you a link specifically calling as to why they made the video and that they do in fact say (we'll see whether they fully follow through) we are to blame and need to get better and commit. Then you changed the argument to them needing to do it in the video. That's why:
I'm pegging you with this, which I stick by.
Again, why is the text meaningless now? It's a less than 2min video. It has a solid message that is concise and to the point and you want them to add in, "we were shit too" because . . . you just want them to say they were shit in the video? Yes, I do think what you're asking for is entirely missing the point.
And no, the Kaepernick Nike issue did not lessen the message in my opinion. That's a whole other topic though.
Sex does sell, as in, they don't have to change their ads or how they choose to market their products. They could continue marketing the old way. They didn't need to come out and make a public stand and choice to move away from that nor challenge their base to either.
You're preaching to the choir man. If you're whole point is, "they should have been harder on themselves in the video" I mean, sure, run with it. I think it's a dumb thing to be hung up on when the info is clearly out there that they recognize their failure and yes, it seems more like you want to have a lame jab at corporations taking a stand opposed to seeing the positives of it.
Remember, this is what you said this
(there is more yes but it's a regurgitation of what you have already said) Which I addressed with the link and then you responded with this:
You can not seriously be telling me that all they needed to do was add a part about "oh we also played a role" and then suddenly your whole view of this would change. You and I both know that's not true.
Changing the argument would be you giving me a commercial where they address their complicity and then me saying that "oh well they should run a full ad on magazines/etc." Keep in mind I was saying that to begin with in my initial post regarding the commercial's weakness, so I don't understand why you're acting like this was a sudden goalpost shift that I brought on mid-argument. In fact, this was said in my very first post ITT that you used to counter:
To clarify, this was in regards to the commercial and not the press release as I was pointing out what they did in the commercial and contrasting it alongside what they didn't do. Posting a press release doesn't constitute that. It means I don't take their word as 100% because 1) words are just words until you back them up (which is where the commercial fell flat for me), and 2) they aren't really showing any reason for me to think that they understood the extent in which they were responsible for reaffirming toxic cultural beliefs for men and women. All that commercial is really doing is pointing out where they see the flaws with masculinity in the current era, and what should be done to stop it. If they had shown aspects how of their advertising/marketing contributed to the harmful beliefs, it would make them appear more believable and show understanding as opposed to being "corporation #20,193,213 using social movement #45,678,988 to make profit."
Do I think there is a positive message to be had? Of course, but just because a message is positive, doesn't suddenly mean I'm going to ignore the history behind Gillette and what it stood for from its inception to now (which is the same reason why I don't buy Nike's advertising with Kaep, again a separate argument but it's Nike's insincerity coupled with the dilution of Kaepernick's original protest message). Again, a press release is not significant enough for me to believe that because they said it that I'm 100% into their platform. Words are just words until you back them up with actions.
And you know my thoughts based on what? Pure guesswork to prove a flimsy point, at best? I would legitimately think differently of the commercial if they managed to use their platform to show their errors, how it affected men, and then show what real masculinity is all about without any of the past non-sense like men being in control of women, etc. This is how you know they understand the nuances of what they did as opposed to coming off as an insincere profit-generating machine.
I really wish any time an ad like these gets blowback the company would do this.
Also feel really bad for the people who have to field these calls.
I finally broke down and watched this "controversial" ad.
Holy shit I dont get people. This isn't the pepsi commercial with the woman trying to change views via beverage. It was just a male focused razor company making sure their audience knows where they stand and asking men to set an example for eachother. I get there's some cynicism here at it being a marketing ploy to garner clicks and buzz. But it's not that bad and even pretty tasteful since they didn't highlight razors in this "short film".
Holy shit I dont get people. This isn't the pepsi commercial with the woman trying to change views via beverage. It was just a male focused razor company making sure their audience knows where they stand and asking men to set an example for eachother. I get there's some cynicism here at it being a marketing ploy to garner clicks and buzz. But it's not that bad and even pretty tasteful since they didn't highlight razors in this "short film".
This will be my last post to you on this topic since we are reaching a point of stand off
Actually no. At no point in your posts (and I have read them multiple times) did you say Gilletter didn't address the issues in the video and that's why it doesn't hit. You only mentioned the commercial AFTER I showed you the link to the press release where they actually did acknowledge it. That is changing the argument. Perhaps in the commercial is what you original meant but I'm not a mind reader so I'm not going to assume stuff you didn't type.
That didn't happen either. You started you're argument about how corporations doing this stuff is hollow and self serving. This is what you started the conversation with. Your very first post in the thread. Sentence 1 and 2.
What I said is entirely consistent with what you posted.
You don't even use the word commercial in your first post. You don't ever imply that they need to address it in this commercial for it to be valid. I'm literally responding to exactly what you typed man. I'm not even being nit picky.
As I said, you only actually mentioned the commercial specifically after I showed you the press release. Before then all you said is they haven't acknowledged their past. But really, I didn't write you off after you shifted. I wrote you off because the bolded:
Is the only time in the entire thread you have said the ad had any good. That's it. One time after I have had to basically argue with you to acknowledge it.
Obviously I can't read minds man but you haven't said a single positive thing about the ad but a shit ton of "it's a ploy". You can argue you feel they should have done stuff differently but if you spend the entire thread posting criticism after criticism with literally nothing positive, you can't whine when someone says they don't feel you are ever going to be satisfied. But do you man.
Aight, I'm out with this discussion, good day.
Actually no. At no point in your posts (and I have read them multiple times) did you say Gilletter didn't address the issues in the video and that's why it doesn't hit. You only mentioned the commercial AFTER I showed you the link to the press release where they actually did acknowledge it. That is changing the argument. Perhaps in the commercial is what you original meant but I'm not a mind reader so I'm not going to assume stuff you didn't type.
That didn't happen either. You started you're argument about how corporations doing this stuff is hollow and self serving. This is what you started the conversation with. Your very first post in the thread. Sentence 1 and 2.
What I said is entirely consistent with what you posted.
You don't even use the word commercial in your first post. You don't ever imply that they need to address it in this commercial for it to be valid. I'm literally responding to exactly what you typed man. I'm not even being nit picky.
As I said, you only actually mentioned the commercial specifically after I showed you the press release. Before then all you said is they haven't acknowledged their past. But really, I didn't write you off after you shifted. I wrote you off because the bolded:
Is the only time in the entire thread you have said the ad had any good. That's it. One time after I have had to basically argue with you to acknowledge it.
Obviously I can't read minds man but you haven't said a single positive thing about the ad but a shit ton of "it's a ploy". You can argue you feel they should have done stuff differently but if you spend the entire thread posting criticism after criticism with literally nothing positive, you can't whine when someone says they don't feel you are ever going to be satisfied. But do you man.
Aight, I'm out with this discussion, good day.
Considering the thread was about the commercial, what else would I be talking about? It's pedantic at this point when you can clearly see what I was saying even without putting the word "commercial." So again, I didn't change the argument, and even went into further detail as to why a press release statement =/= commercial. In fact YOU were the one who brought up the press release, and I countered with what I said. I had no idea it existed until you showed me.
Two times. I also made a comment saying the idiots who are complaining about this commercial's message are failing to realize how harmless the message as a whole is. The content of the message wasn't what I was interested in explaining (since frankly, it speaks for itself), it's the company behind the message that I was more interested in.
Great ad, saw people share this on Facebook I went to school with.. joining a boycott of their razors..., so I've unfriended them. Great message here, those attacking it arent real men, their perpetrators of sexual harassment claiming "boys will be boys"
It's fucked up that as a society, we've devolved to the point where an ad for razor blades advocating to teach it's audience that women are, in fact, human beings, causes so much outrage. It's amazing how petty and trifling grown people can be. Boycotting? Angry tweets and phone calls? How miserable are you to even think about doing that?
Obviously the message is good. Nothing wrong with it all. What worries me is that there is some moron out there, who's finally convinced by this ad, to not be a piece of shit towards women. Like, after all your years on Earth, it took a goddamn ad for razor blades to finally evoke a sense of compassion and empathy within you? Better late than never, maybe, but holy shit. It took THIS for you to finally get it?
At the end of the day it's still just an ad for a big ass corporation that wants you to feel good enough to buy their crap. I know, that's a cynical outlook, but that's just how I am with everything. Again, good on them for promoting a positive message. The end goal was to get people talking, which obviously, worked.
Obviously the message is good. Nothing wrong with it all. What worries me is that there is some moron out there, who's finally convinced by this ad, to not be a piece of shit towards women. Like, after all your years on Earth, it took a goddamn ad for razor blades to finally evoke a sense of compassion and empathy within you? Better late than never, maybe, but holy shit. It took THIS for you to finally get it?
At the end of the day it's still just an ad for a big ass corporation that wants you to feel good enough to buy their crap. I know, that's a cynical outlook, but that's just how I am with everything. Again, good on them for promoting a positive message. The end goal was to get people talking, which obviously, worked.
I'm just now realizing how widespread the co-opting of "woke" as a slur against the left is, and it's really got me feeling a certain kind of way
Also, like, what?
"What about Gillette being part of this problem with their ads?!" The second thing they showed was a clip from one of those ads. Dudes looking themselves in the mirror > old Gillette ad with the "Best a Man Can Get" slogan > kid being chased by bullies breaks through the wall/screen the ad is being projected onto.
"What about women?!" Women are often afraid to turn men down for dates, out of fear for their safety. Yeah let's ask them to confront dudes about their behaviour (that encourages what makes women afraid to turn them down in the first place).
Seriously, what?!
"What about Gillette being part of this problem with their ads?!" The second thing they showed was a clip from one of those ads. Dudes looking themselves in the mirror > old Gillette ad with the "Best a Man Can Get" slogan > kid being chased by bullies breaks through the wall/screen the ad is being projected onto.
"What about women?!" Women are often afraid to turn men down for dates, out of fear for their safety. Yeah let's ask them to confront dudes about their behaviour (that encourages what makes women afraid to turn them down in the first place).
Seriously, what?!
The negative reaction to this spot really makes me sad, and quite angry. I mean, it's not perfect, yet I thought we were better than this. I feel so alone sometimes, even with my friends, when I'm clearly one of the few males who completely rejected toxic masculinity since the first days of school. The strange thing is that all of my friends, male or female, appreciate my opennes and they almost envy it... like, what's so hard about being yourself in front of other people?
They have qualities I can only dream about, and mine isn't even a "quality". You know, letting go that fucking masculinity is just a choice and it's really that easy.
They have qualities I can only dream about, and mine isn't even a "quality". You know, letting go that fucking masculinity is just a choice and it's really that easy.
User Banned (Permanent): Racism. Trolling. Account still in junior phase.
Well like you say you are black so you wouldnt understand its a white boy thing :) just kidding but, look at it this way it shows predominantly white men acting like assholes, and we feel like, hey that ain't me, and why dont you show a "Diverse" representation of all colours being Toxic?
Now if you made it mostly black men being toxic the outrage would be huge, BLM, Farrakhan, Jessie Jackson would all be on the news talking about Racist Gillette, the advert would be removed and an official apology given for the insensitivity of it all.
But whites are fair game in this day and age, and even when we are depicted as toxic woman haters and bullies, if we complain we are told to STFU and stop being racist.
So yeah fuck Gillette and their Virtue signalling, we have Sharia law where I live, where women are covered and beaten if they dont behave, but I didn't see anyone from that part of society, that still treats women like slaves and cattle, to be sold and used as breeding machine represented either - cause well that would be Islamaphobic, plus they rarely shave so Gillette has a no win there!