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Going forward, I hope Nintendo doesn't stick to the "main" character first for the Super Smash Bros roster

Busaiku

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,048
One of Super Smash Bros's biggest problems is a complete lack of PoC/women representation.

Besides the "avatar" characters (Inklings, Mii, Villagers), the only humanoid characters that aren't white/adjacent are Ryu (being Japanese) and Ganondorf (being a Gerudo, who are largely inspired by Middle Eastern people).
Female representation is a bit better, but still much worse than the number of males.
Someone here did a thread on representation seen among fighting games this gen, and I believe Super Smash Bros was worst in every metric.

A large part of this is due to the lack of non-white characters among Nintendo (and 3rd party) game leads.
Like in the case of The Legend of Zelda, there are other Gerudo (like Urbosa) that are now very iconic for the franchise, or Sheikah like Impa, who has always been a series mainstay.
However, they've only elected to focus on the main 3 characters of the franchise.

Now many might argue that they should only use the characters that are the biggest, but Super Smash Bros is a bigger franchise than most of the series represented, and more often than not, makes those characters the icons they are now, rather than the other way around.
For instance, in the case of F-Zero, people know Captain Falcon now, but that's largely due to the Super Smash Bros series. Instead of just using Captain Falcon though, they could've instead used Kate Alen or someone else. Let's be honest, nobody knew Captain Falcon before Super Smash Bros.

Other crossover fighting games, or guest characters in fighting games don't just limit themselves like this.
Like in Tekken, we see characters like characters like Geese and Negan instead of Terry or Rick.
Let's not forget that Morrigan was not the main character of the Darkstalkers franchise, but has become the face of the franchise due to Capcom's crossover games.

So in future Super Smash Bros games, I'd much rather see Wonder Black or Twintelle over Wonder Red or Spring Man. Not saying these franchises will be represented, but should they use franchises with a rich cast, I really hope they don't limit themselves to just more white guys.
 

yuoke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,172
This is mainly up to sakurai, so if he is there, it's going to be main characters and villains first.
 

LunarKnite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
120
While I agree that Smash could have better representation of minorities, I'm wondering how is it worse in every metric? Maybe if you're talking percentage/ratio-wise, but that's largely unfair for a series that features 30% animals/non-humanoid characters.
 

Illusion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,330
I agree. Some series just don't have main characters that fit or offer a lot to the look and feel of Smash Bros if it was strictly main character first.

We have mascots, villains, or specific characters that represent the series in bigger ways.

Yokai Watch you have Mascot Jibanyan (We wouldn't expect the main character to be in).
Resident Evil you have the zombies or even Wesker that better represent the series dark/horror tone. (But people want to argue why we need cops with basic weaponry need to be added).
Undertale you have Sans who stands out the most of any character to the wider public due to fan art and appeal of Megalovania. (But Frisk is the main character. Or why not Undyne at that point)?

People will always feel otherwise and think the main characters are more deserving because they are the star. And that other characters should come second, but it feels like we are just introducing characters just so we can get other characters to join in and get where they need to be. Some characters shine more and are equal to their star. Or are so wacky they'd be a cool addition.

I want more things like Piranha Plant. I want to be surprised with wacky ideas.

Edit: anyone who mentioned Rodin or Twintelle I love you.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,650
I can understand. As much of a household name as ST Falcon is, it's the ST Garam that's on the cover.

 

Aigis

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,973
other Gerudo (like Urbosa) that are now very iconic
I dunno about that one there chief, Impa would be cool though.

Either way *most* franchises are represented in a way that we are either digging into 3rd party characters which opens up the pool more hopefully or tapping into secondary characters within a franchise. Even with ARMS™ and TW101, I could see them skipping completely. I honestly dont know who they plan to add anymore at this point
 

UsoEwin

Banned
Jul 14, 2018
2,063
Why not just add Kate Alen as well, instead of having to take away Captain Falcon?

You are just going to upset people if you start taking away
 

DecoReturns

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,447
Nintendo?

You mean Sakurai. Looks like Nintendo gives him 99% creative control nowadays, for a while even.
 

yuoke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,172
I agree. Some series just don't have main characters that fit or offer a lot to the look and feel of Smash Bros if it was strictly main character first.

We have mascots, villains, or specific characters that represent the series in bigger ways.

Yokai Watch you have Mascot Jibanyan (We wouldn't expect the main character to be in).
Resident Evil you have the zombies or even Wesker that better represent the series dark/horror tone. (But people want to argue why we need cops with basic weaponry need to be added).
Undertale you have Sans who stands out the most of any character to the wider public due to fan art and appeal of Megalovania. (But Frisk is the main character. Or why not Undyne at that point)?

People will always feel otherwise and think the main characters are more deserving because they are the star. And that other characters should come second, but it feels like we are just introducing characters just so we can get other characters to join in and get where they need to be. Some characters shine more and are equal to their star. Or are so wacky they'd be a cool addition.

I want more things like Piranha Plant. I want to be surprised with wacky ideas.

Edit: anyone who mentioned Rodin or Twintelle I love you.
The main characters represent resident evil because in all the ganes, you play as them. Sakurai likes to try to make characters and series represented accurately for the most part, with taking some liberties. Having wesker being playable doesn't fit with how series are represented in smash.
 

Crashman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,387
I knew coming in here this would be Anti-Spring Man.

I feel like as a fighting game character that you *could* away with not adding him, since his importance to the overall story is close to being equal with everyone else. I'd hesitate to add Twintelle as the sole representative though since...well she uses hair arms not arm arms. I think Minmin would work better, but whatever.

Wonder Black over Wonder Red would just feel wrong though. Its Wonder Red's game and if anyone would get in first for W101, it should be him....not like even that's going to happen though.
 

Raccoon

Member
May 31, 2019
1,214
Unpopular opinion: I don’t think the onus of representation is on Smash. Smash Bros should always have the main character of a series first, but new series should have more diverse main characters.

also spring man is cool
 
Nov 4, 2018
413
Part of the whole crossover appeal of the series is getting the best character that represents that series in first.

Like would people be flipping out about Banjo content in Smash but the playable character is Napper instead?
 

RochHoch

Member
May 22, 2018
5,037
Even if they pass up on Spring Man in the next Smash, you’re still not getting Twintelle. Min Min won the popularity contest, so she’d be next in line.

That being said, I see no reason for Nintendo/Sakurai to change course on this. Main characters represent their series best and are the most well known, its simple as that.
 

Niosai

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,038
I didn't realize just how badly I want Urbosa in Smash until just now.

That being said, Nintendo properties in general seem to not have a lot of representation, but hopefullu that starts to get better soon.
 
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Busaiku

Busaiku

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,048
While I agree that Smash could have better representation of minorities, I'm wondering how is it worse in every metric? Maybe if you're talking percentage/ratio-wise, but that's largely unfair for a series that features 30% animals/non-humanoid characters.
I was wrong regardless, I forgot about Dragon Ball FighterZ.
Why not just add Kate Alen as well, instead of having to take away Captain Falcon?

You are just going to upset people if you start taking away
I'm not arguing for replacements/erasure at this point, unless they want to have a more limited roster.
That is why Claude should be the next FE rep in smash
Yes.
I knew coming in here this would be Anti-Spring Man.

I feel like as a fighting game character that you *could* away with not adding him, since his importance to the overall story is close to being equal with everyone else. I'd hesitate to add Twintelle as the sole representative though since...well she uses hair arms not arm arms. I think Minmin would work better, but whatever.

Wonder Black over Wonder Red would just feel wrong though. Its Wonder Red's game and if anyone would get in first for W101, it should be him....not like even that's going to happen though.
Again, other games/franchises starred certain characters who were passed on for the crossover games, and now those characters are much more synonymous with the franchise.
Darkstalkers is the most noteworthy example in games that I can think of, but if we go to other media (though these characters do get game representation), there's stuff like X-Men or Fantastic Four.
Even if they pass up on Spring Man in the next Smash, you’re still not getting Twintelle. Min Min won the popularity contest, so she’d be next in line.

That being said, I see no reason for Nintendo/Sakurai to change course on this. Main characters represent their series best and are the most well known, its simple as that.
Why would someone like Spring Man represent ARMS better than Min Min or Twintelle? He's certainly not more well known. Though of course if he was a playable fighter in Super Smash Bros, he would be more recognizable than anyone else, by virtue of this franchise being much bigger.
If Great Tiger or Lilina were chosen to represent their respective franchise/game, I'm sure they'd be more recognizable than Little Mac or Roy.
 

LegendofLex

Member
Nov 20, 2017
3,087
Unpopular opinion: I don’t think the onus of representation is on Smash. Smash Bros should always have the main character of a series first, but new series should have more diverse main characters.

also spring man is cool
Yeah. I think this is the real problem that produces a lack of diversity in the Smash prime roster. Nintendo needs more PoC leads, and Smash can follow while sticking to its all-star lineup ethos.
 

smurfx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,839
publishers aren't gonna want side characters to get in over their main characters. of course nintendo has the a lot of say of who gets in but ultimately they need permission from publishers to include characters.
 

Neoxon

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,495
Houston, TX
That’s more of Sakurai’s mentality than anything else, which will likely stick as long as Sakurai has the final say with character selection.

For reference, Capcom is much more lax with their character selection process for Versus games (Ex: Morrigan over Donovan, Zero & Tron Bonne over Mega Man, etc.).
 

RochHoch

Member
May 22, 2018
5,037
Why would someone like Spring Man represent ARMS better than Min Min or Twintelle? He's certainly not more well known. Though of course if he was a playable fighter in Super Smash Bros, he would be more recognizable than anyone else, by virtue of this franchise being much bigger.
If Great Tiger or Lilina were chosen to represent their respective franchise/game, I'm sure they'd be more recognizable than Little Mac or Roy.
Spring Man is the one who’s front and center on the box art and I believe there is an ARMS comic in which he is the main character. He’s firmly positioned as the frontman for the game, and that makes him the most logical choice to represent it by default.
 

Neoxon

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,495
Houston, TX
I was wrong regardless, I forgot about Dragon Ball FighterZ.

I'm not arguing for replacements/erasure at this point, unless they want to have a more limited roster.

Yes.

Again, other games/franchises starred certain characters who were passed on for the crossover games, and now those characters are much more synonymous with the franchise.
Darkstalkers is the most noteworthy example in games that I can think of, but if we go to other media (though these characters do get game representation), there's stuff like X-Men or Fantastic Four.

Why would someone like Spring Man represent ARMS better than Min Min or Twintelle? He's certainly not more well known. Though of course if he was a playable fighter in Super Smash Bros, he would be more recognizable than anyone else, by virtue of this franchise being much bigger.
If Great Tiger or Lilina were chosen to represent their respective franchise/game, I'm sure they'd be more recognizable than Little Mac or Roy.
I should note that Smash Ultimate is at 18.75% of its roster being comprised of women or female-by-default characters. The only games that have a worse female fighter percentage than Ultimate are MvCI (2nd worst) & DBFZ (the worst).

For the record, I was the one who made the female fighters percentage thread.
 
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Busaiku

Busaiku

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,048
Spring Man is the one who’s front and center on the box art and I believe there is an ARMS comic in which he is the main character. He’s firmly positioned as the frontman for the game, and that makes him the most logical choice to represent it by default.
Yes, I'm not saying he isn't the "default" choice, just that "default" isn't the best.
I mean, at one point, Pikachu was not the mascot of Pokémon, not being on the box, and not headlining the comic.
 

Josephl64

Member
Oct 25, 2017
361
Houston
While the sentiment is nice, I'd rather have the main character(s) of a series first rather than any side character(s).

They just represent the series better.
 

Neoxon

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,495
Houston, TX
Yes, I'm not saying he isn't the "default" choice, just that "default" isn't the best.
I mean, at one point, Pikachu was not the mascot of Pokémon, not being on the box, and not headlining the comic.
The thing is, as long as Sakurai is the man in charge &/or has the final say regarding character selection (even with the Fighters Pass, Sakurai had to sign off on the character), he's probably gonna stick with his protagonists-first mentality. It makes sense on paper, but as you said, it's a double-edged sword that ends up hurting the potential for women & people of color getting in Smash.

On the ARMS point, assuming that we get a sequel between now & the next Smash game, said next Smash game will likely get playable ARMS representation. But due to said mentality, it'll probably be Spring Man. Even if we get a 2nd character that isn't an echo, Twintelle would have to duke it out with Party Crash Bash winner Min Min.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,176
I should note that Smash Ultimate is at 18.75% of its roster being comprised of women or female-by-default characters. The only games that have a worse female fighter percentage than Ultimate are MvCI (2nd worst) & DBFZ (the worst).

For the record, I was the one who made the female fighters percentage thread.
IP made from the ground up as fighting games tend to have a lot of female fighters. Smash being a largely Nintendo all-star gimped itself super hard in that aspect due to Nintendo's history. DBFZ was expected because DB itself has always had pretty pathetic representation.
 

Neoxon

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Oct 25, 2017
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IP made from the ground up as fighting games tend to have a lot of female fighters. Smash being a largely Nintendo all-star gimped itself super hard in that aspect due to Nintendo's history. DBFZ was expected because DB itself has always had pretty pathetic representation.
Going into making that thread, I fully expected DBFZ & MvCI to be the Bottom 2. What I didn't expect was Smash's percentages to be as low as they ended up being regarding defaults (I.E. the same restriction put on Injustice 2).

Speaking of which, I probably need to update said thread at some point.
 

Lucas M. Thomas

Editor-in-Chief of Nintendo Force Magazine
Verified
Oct 30, 2017
644
Kentucky
Twintelle could be the easiest one to turn into a Smash fighter, since she could use her normal arms to use items.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,433
Unpopular opinion: I don’t think the onus of representation is on Smash. Smash Bros should always have the main character of a series first, but new series should have more diverse main characters.

also spring man is cool
Completely true. Don't blame Sakurai for not including one of those dead heroes in that one Zelda game that got like 5 minutes of screentime at most, blame Nintendo for not putting those characters more at the forefront in their own home series. Smash is a popularity contest, you're not going to see the likes of Pokemon's Lenora in it ever.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,796
Smash Bros is Videogame All-Stars, so the characters from each franchise are generally the stars of their respective series.

That being said, there was the time Sakurai opted for Lucina over Chrom. Granted, Robin is effectively the co-star of Awakening and was added as well (with the male as the default), but I still thought going for Lucina as a clone over Chrom was a nod to her being more popular than her dad, and bringing an element of diversity as a female fighter.

So that's at least one possible time when Sakurai looked at two characters and said, "Well, -this- one is technically the lead, but I'll go with -this- one because they're more interesting."

Perhaps Twintelle could get in over Spring Man for similar reasons. Although I quite like Spring Man.
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,543
Lucina was very much a throw it in choice since she was supposed to be a alt. costume at first. It's clear Robin was the main FE representative while she was treated as a bonus.
 

Neoxon

Community Resettler
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Oct 25, 2017
28,495
Houston, TX
Smash Bros is Videogame All-Stars, so the characters from each franchise are generally the stars of their respective series.

That being said, there was the time Sakurai opted for Lucina over Chrom. Granted, Robin is effectively the co-star of Awakening and was added as well (with the male as the default), but I still thought going for Lucina as a clone over Chrom was a nod to her being more popular than her dad, and bringing an element of diversity as a female fighter.

So that's at least one possible time when Sakurai looked at two characters and said, "Well, -this- one is technically the lead, but I'll go with -this- one because they're more interesting."

Perhaps Twintelle could get in over Spring Man for similar reasons. Although I quite like Spring Man.
Lucina got in since she was originally gonna be an alternate costume for Marth. Robin was the co-protagonist of Awakening (sharing the role with Chrom), so he is mainly seen as the Awakening rep back in Wii U/3DS. Lucina was a pleasant bonus.
 

Poltergust

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,490
Orlando, FL
Why would someone like Spring Man represent ARMS better than Min Min or Twintelle? He's certainly not more well known.
Uh, Spring Man is an Assist Trophy in Ultimate. That puts him leaps and bounds over every other character from ARMS because he's the only visible character from that game to people who never played it, outside of Spirits.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,796
Lucina got in since she was originally gonna be an alternate costume for Marth. Robin was the co-protagonist of Awakening (sharing the role with Chrom), so he is mainly seen as the Awakening rep back in Wii U/3DS. Lucina was a pleasant bonus.
Sure, but I'm just saying Chrom could've easily had been the alternate costume for Marth, but instead he chose Lucina.
 

Neoxon

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Oct 25, 2017
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Sure, but I'm just saying Chrom could've easily had been the alternate costume for Marth, but instead he chose Lucina.
The original concept for Chrom was a half-way point between Marth & Ike, which wouldn't have fit. Lucina's whole thing early on was pretending to be Marth, which made her a perfect alternate costume candidate.
 

jnWake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,064
Arms is a very new franchise. They could switch the main protagonists for a sequel after seeing who are fan faves.
 

Mory Dunz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,438
Your best bet are franchises that have a lot of reps actually.

Cause the main characters for franchises with few reps will be the first choice main characters, as they should. They're usually more popular.
Getting a rep from Xeno1 that wasn't shulk would likely be disappointing (and strange) to someone who played the game

Like getting Kairi when Sora is available. That'd be some reaction

imo, A better ask is people like Impa and Urbosa. Or Claude. Instead of single rep franchises

Not franchises who only get one rep asking to ignore their main and popular character.
ARMs is whatever though. That can be anyone yeah like Twintelle. Since no one matters much to begin with. She's the most interesting by far.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,796
The original concept for Chrom was a half-way point between Marth & Ike, which wouldn't have fit. Lucina's whole thing early on was pretending to be Marth, which made her a perfect alternate costume candidate.
Ah, I didn't know we knew anything about Chrom's original concept. I'll take your word for it. That's interesting.
 

Neoxon

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Oct 25, 2017
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Arms is a very new franchise. They could switch the main protagonists for a sequel after seeing who are fan faves.
Unless fans really raise a ton of stink regarding Spring Man, I doubt that Nintendo will change course on him being the face of ARMS.

Ah, I didn't know we knew anything about Chrom's original concept. I'll take your word for it. That's interesting.
Funny enough, Chrom makes sense as a Roy echo when you consider what was originally conceptualized for Chrom back in the Smash Wii U/3DS days.
 

DecoReturns

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,447
Unless fans really raise a ton of stink regarding Spring Man, I doubt that Nintendo will change course on him being the face of ARMS.


Funny enough, Chrom makes sense as a Roy echo when you consider what was originally conceptualized for Chrom back in the Smash Wii U/3DS days.
There hasn’t been a course decided for an ARMS rep.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,796
Funny enough, Chrom makes sense as a Roy echo when you consider what was originally conceptualized for Chrom back in the Smash Wii U/3DS days.
The Chrom we ended up getting is pretty neat. Roy's fighting style with Ike's recovery makes him surprisingly distinct. A unique Final Smash, as well.
 

Neoxon

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Oct 25, 2017
28,495
Houston, TX
There hasn’t been a course decided for an ARMS rep.
The apparently-canon graphic novel (whenever that comes out, since Dark Horse said it's still coming.....albeit pending Nintendo's decision on when to release it) pretty clearly paints Spring Man as the protagonist. Likewise, Springtron very much plays into the hero's-evil-clone trope.