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Deleted member 4609

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
767
I mean, you can keep dancing around my point instead of addressing it, sure. My point is that DMC was never a serious artistic franchise, it was always a bastion of edge and camp with writing that ranges from "so bad it's good" to "just flat out bad". DmC isn't that out of character in that sense. And no one is acting like DmC is high art either. So this indignance about the game from hardcore fans of pre-reboot just rings hollow. You were into the 2000s anime teen edgy aesthetic and you don't like the 2010s western edgy teen aesthetic. We get it.

But you're the one trying to dance around stuff, though. DMC1 literally created a genre and revolutionized the way third-person action games were designed, inspiring stuff all the way to God of War half a decade later. If you don't like the cutscenes, you can just skip them and enjoy the game. Same goes for 3 and 4. Ninja Theory were given the franchise despite a fairly poor track record in terms of gameplay design in their previous action games because they were perceived as an upgrade with regards to storytelling, which would make up for the deficiencies when compared to the work of one of the best team of action game system designers in the world. And yet here we are, with a game whose storytelling is a side-step in quality at best and even a downgrade from 3 and a predictable downgrade when it comes to the actual gameplay as well. I wonder if that might have something to do with the narrative complaints.

No, it must be anime fans or some other strawman.
 
Oct 27, 2017
720
Like someone in this thread allready said: DmC traded the japanese tryhard style for a western tryhard style. Both aged about as well as a chicken left in the sun.

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with this.

I'm not claiming that the original DMC series wasn't "edgy", what I will say though I wouldn't call it try hard. DMC2 is awful, i think we can all agree with that. DMC1 however was clearly playing things straight. Dante and playing as him was supposed to be cool, sure. But otherwise it was going for something. It didn't really work, ending up like how a lot of PSX/PS2 games end up but that leaves it with some charm. It's a lot like revisiting an old fun action b-movie where you're there mostly for the cool action scenes and visuals but enjoy the full ride warts and all. DMC series also benefits from a fun backstory. There's an earnestness in the first game that has me enjoying it's dumb bullshit. You can think it's cool, lame or entertaining, but it certainly isn't trying to make you think it's cool.

DMC3 is where it became a lot more aware and had some fun with it. It isn't insanely meta or tongue in cheek, which honestly would have made it overbearing. But it certainly aware of itself enough to have more levity. Ironically, it's probably the only character action I'd say has a decent story, a genre that mostly lives and dies on characters. It's not deep, smart or anything like that but it never had to be. It was a fun action game and knew it, and used tried and true framing devices to push that forward. It honestly has one of my favorite ludonarrative moments in gaming where it tracks you and Dante's progression with the three Vergil boss fights. It doesn't aim high with it's story but does a decent job.

DMC4 I'll give you, that was full anime, unfinished, and what was there narratively wasn't particularly good. And it was a thousand times sillier with it's antics.

DmC, on the other hand, seems obsessed with having you think it's cool and even smart. Every other line reads straight out of a spiral notebook. "The world is your bitch, as am I", "I have a bigger dick", the thousands of "FUCK YOU", etc, etc. reads like it was written by some 13 year old edgelord. It wanted to be irreverent as opposed to earnest. Guess it's subjective but I found it awfully cringe inducing. And I'm not some anime fanatic as I usually prefer the western idea of "cool".

I mean, you can keep dancing around my point instead of addressing it, sure. My point is that DMC was never a serious artistic franchise, it was always a bastion of edge and camp with writing that ranges from "so bad it's good" to "just flat out bad". DmC isn't that out of character in that sense. And no one is acting like DmC is high art either. So this indignance about the game from hardcore fans of pre-reboot just rings hollow. You were into the 2000s anime teen edgy aesthetic and you don't like the 2010s western edgy teen aesthetic. We get it.


...Where was that brought up? i doubt anyone, fan or not, sees DMC as "high art" nor have they pretended it to be such. You can argue whether one works or doesn't as it pertains to you, and I feel like a discussion here can be had without throwing insults around.
 

AgentLampshade

Sweet Commander
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,311
My comment (and the thread in general) is obviously about the tone though.
Then nobody is claiming it as a masterpiece. I think its fair to critique Ninja Theory on the grounds that their story is bad. That's a major reason they were hired for the project after all. It's easy enough to bring up that cutscene and say the OG series is as bad if not worse, but it ignores the context of why the reboot was brought up in the first place.
 

petethepanda

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,184
chicago
Maybe I'm just misremembering, but DmC had its tongue planted way too firmly in its cheek to read as tryhard for me.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,374
That's not edgy, though.
Devil may cry's first scene, (literally the name though), is a demon looking dude surrounded by flames swinging his sword at nothing while narration plays:
Hy0SXPj.gif


The game cuts to a scene where a woman wearing sunglasses in the middle of the night drops then from a blood red moon before looking at a shop literally named devil may cry:
uq4d1Dm.gif


We are then treated to our first glimpse of the shop, which is filled with skulls pinned to the wall by swords, alcohol bottles all over the place, the woman finds a motorcycle, and then drives the entrance:
mHEZbJR.gif


Our protagonist is so cool that this literally doesn't phase him. They then proceed to make sex puns while he grabs his di-I mean sword off of this poster:
Ir273MI.gif


DMC1 was pure edge mixed with anime cliches. DmC was pure edge mixed with tv show cliches.

I'm not claiming that the original DMC series wasn't "edgy", what I will say though I wouldn't call it try hard.
The above isn't tryhard?
 

Sumio Mondo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,935
United Kingdom
People tend to interpret this as "Dante's gay" but what they actually intended to do was to show how out of place old Dante looks in a western movie.

https://www.engadget.com/2013/03/28/seen-gdc-imagine-dante-in-a-western-movie/

They also shopped him into fight club

ogn9mk2.jpg


It's not exactly a great argument because I'd say Dante isn't supposed to fit into a realistic movie but at least it's not intended to be homophobic

Well Capcom Japan certainly took it to heart and are now making the cast photorealistic instead of the anime art style from previous titles! So maybe Dante in DMC5 will be able to fit into that Fight Club picture next time, haha.
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
Devil May Cry was already tryhard IMO. Its part of the "charm".

DMC took it in a slightly different direction sure. Less anime edge. More shitty emo edge.

The problem is, DmC missed the point, previous games in the series had this ironic twist to them, they were on the joke that the game was ridiculous, and DmC was like "nooooo this is serious we're gonna make it adult an cool and not a joke".
 

Spartancarver

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,453
Right around the cutscene with the

"Fuck you!" "Fuck you!" "FUCK YOU!"

exchange with a boss was when I realized that every aspect of the game was an irredeemable shitstained bag of trash.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,016
The game is really really bad story-wise

Ninja Theory can forever go fuck themselves.

I'm glad they got bought by MS and I can just ignore them for life now. Homophobic trash.

We almost never see series go back after a reboot, but DmC was so shit that we're getting DMCV, thanks guys.

I'll be fair to the game and say that they did fix a lot of the gameplay problems with the remaster, the original game is legit trash and the remaster is a million times better, but by then the damage was done.
 

Deleted member 4609

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
767
Devil may cry's first scene, (literally the name though), is a demon looking dude surrounded by flames swinging his sword at nothing while narration plays:
Hy0SXPj.gif


The game cuts to a scene where a woman wearing sunglasses in the middle of the night drops then from a blood red moon before looking at a shop literally named devil may cry:
uq4d1Dm.gif


We are then treated to our first glimpse of the shop, which is filled with skulls pinned to the wall by swords, alcohol bottles all over the place, the woman finds a motorcycle, and then drives the entrance:
mHEZbJR.gif


Our protagonist is so cool that this literally doesn't phase him. They then proceed to make sex puns while he grabs his di-I mean sword off of this poster:
Ir273MI.gif


DMC1 was pure edge mixed with anime cliches. DmC was pure edge mixed with tv show cliches.

I was talking about the linked video, which is not edgy. That stuff certainly seems comparable to "The world is at last your bitch, as am I" and shooting a pregnant woman in the womb, though.
 

dlauv

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,513
I think people are willing to giggle at awkward dialogue from Japan and find it endearing, like baby's first steps.

From a western perspective, DmC doesn't really have an excuse for how bad its dialogue and narrative are. And it's made worse by how seriously it takes itself for the better parts of the game. There are a couple good jokes tho, yet many that fall so fucking flat.

Also, look how fucking punchable.
ade.jpg

dmcjokes.png
 
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Oct 27, 2017
720
The above isn't tryhard?

It's edgy for sure, and I wouldn't call it subtle. But I wouldn't call that tryhard. As an opening to the game it definitely sets up a lot. Backstory, why Dante is a bad ass, what he's actually doing. It's not really that different from any action movie or anime OVA or what have you at the time. It's not so much try hard as a rushed set up to quickly get to the action game. It's corny, edgy and cheesy.

What I was arguing though, is for the overall game. DMC1's maximum edge moments were absolutely the beginning and ending (make it 5 minutes), where an action game is expected to be bombastic. While DmC itself was a deluge of tryhard throughout.

We're not talking if we'd describe either game as edgy or not, both are. Try hard is a different story.
 

Merv

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,460
DmC was fun. I tried going back to play DMC 4 and didn't like it. Hopefully 5 is good.
 

Furisco

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,084
I think people are willing to giggle at awkward dialogue from Japan and find it endearing, like baby's first steps.
It's hard to enjoy DMC characters that are purposely over the top and awesome when you're too cynical and need to nitpick every single thing about them because they don't act like real people.
460985555568558091.png
 

dlauv

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,513
It's hard to enjoy DMC characters that are purposely over the top and awesome when you're too cynical and need to nitpick every single thing about them because they don't act like real people.
460985555568558091.png

???

ÂżDark soul with light? ÂżYou agreeing or complaining about my attitude?

Because I agree with you, but I don't think some stuff is intentionally awkward.
 
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Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
I mean, the original DMC games were edgy as fuck too, with horrible writing and paper thin characters. But it was anime, so it's ok, I guess? Only 3 was self aware enough to make the camp and cheese into a selling point. 1 and 2 especially are laughably bad with their tone. Sure, DmC is kind of a tonal misfire, but the series was never the masterpiece people make it out to be.


This.
That's not edgy, though.
Riiight.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,374
I was talking about the linked video, which is not edgy. That stuff certainly seems comparable to "The world is at last your bitch, as am I" and shooting a pregnant woman in the womb, though.
Toxic masculinity is very prevalent in the character action genre unfortunately. It started with DMC1. :|
 
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gordofredito

Banned
Jan 16, 2018
2,992
I am convinced that if it wasn't called "DMC" and would've had different character names, right now the internet would be hype as fuck for the third entry in the franchise and Microsoft wouldn't have purchased Ninja Theory. =(
But on the other side, Hellblade would've never happened.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,374
It's edgy for sure, and I wouldn't call it subtle. But I wouldn't call that tryhard. As an opening to the game it definitely sets up a lot. Backstory, why Dante is a bad ass, what he's actually doing. It's not really that different from any action movie or anime OVA or what have you at the time. It's not so much try hard as a rushed set up to quickly get to the action game. It's corny, edgy and cheesy.

What I was arguing though, is for the overall game. DMC1's maximum edge moments were absolutely the beginning and ending (make it 5 minutes), where an action game is expected to be bombastic. While DmC itself was a deluge of tryhard throughout.

We're not talking if we'd describe either game as edgy or not, both are. Try hard is a different story.
Dude it's hella try hard. Try hard is pretty tied into the DNA of the genre and DMC1 is the reason. Is it the height of try hard in the genre itself, absolutely no. DmC is absolutely way edgier and more frequently at that. But then again the same could be said for pretty much every DMC game after 1. :|
 

Boya

Member
Jan 1, 2018
715
I genuienly hope that Capcom gives Vergil a trilby again in DMC5. It fits his "edgelord" archetype so well.
 

Bricks

Member
Nov 6, 2017
622
I think Lords of Shadow 2 wanted to be seen as very serious, dramatic and mature game. Too bad the narrative is unfortunately just a mess, and all the violence (probably included as a means to 'confirm' said maturity) is so over the top it becomes comical. I mean, personally I can't watch something like this (at ~2:00)



and not think of some B-grade slasher to watch just for some dumb fun.
 

Neonep

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,755
Loved the blatant homophobia being swept under the rug by everyone. Like we had freak outs over breast sizes in Dragon's Crown around the same time, but shit like this was okay.
It was ok because the games media back then had a hard on for this game and Ninja Theory.
 

Conciliator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,132
I get why people hate it but I actually personally do kind of prefer the grimy brat-punk aesthetic to the anime power-metal aesthetic

The music and lyrics in the music is pleeeenty dumb all throughout the series

i don't really know what 'tryhard' means, because if you make a video game you should try hard.
 

KarmaCow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,161
They basically traded anime edgyness with american edgyness.

Im a weeb so i prefer the first heh

DMC isn't really anime edgy, or at least it's self aware enough to double down on it to the point of absurdity and revel in the nonsense. DmC is more the western equivalent to everything related to FFVII after FFVII came out.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,374
i don't really know what 'tryhard' means, because if you make a video game you should try hard.
Try hard refers to tone. Usually it's used to negatively describe media that tries TOO hard to be dark, edgy, etc. but it's not exclusive with those concepts. Basically this but without the irony and self awareness:
8ad.jpg


Sidenote:Irony and self awareness does not exclude something from trying too hard.
 
Oct 27, 2017
720
Try hard is a nebulous concept but that's I was describing my personal impression. It varies from person to person, which is why I and Eden disagree. And I wouldn't say it's a japanese vs. western archetype for me either.
 
OP
OP
AVtechNICK

AVtechNICK

Member
Dec 13, 2017
505
You neglected to tell me your top 5 games so I could inform you how they try too hard.

The game isn't gold...but it certainly isn't what you are making it out to be. And again, I would love to know a few titles of games you think have better writing. Very curious about that.
Okay, If you insist, here you go, have fun:
  1. Undertale.
  2. Metal Gear Solid.
  3. Silent Hill 2.
  4. Fatal Frame 2: Crimson Butterfly,
  5. Devil May Cry 3.
Also, everything story-related (overall plot, characters, their development, drama and writing) in Devil May Cry 3 is a prime example how DmC should have handle it.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,374
You hate it because its true?
Tameem didn't reboot the franchise, nor did he base the design of Dante on himself, first of all, he didn't even create the character design for Dante. Which went through a metric fuckton of iteration before they even thought about creating 3D models that also, you guessed it, goes through a metric fuckton of iteration. You're quickly reaching gamersriseup levels of cringe. This isn't 4chan, or gamefaqs. Do better.
 

Monster Zero

Member
Nov 5, 2017
5,612
Southern California
Tameem didn't reboot the franchise, nor did he base the design of Dante on himself, first of all, he didn't even create the character design for Dante. Which went through a metric fuckton of iteration before they even thought about creating 3D models that also, you guessed it, goes through a metric fuckton of iteration. You're quickly reaching gamersriseup levels of cringe. This isn't 4chan. Act better.

Doesn't matter who greenlit the reboot or who did the actual designing. If you dont think the Dante they revealed in that debut trailer is based off Tameem or he didn't have any influence on the design being the games creative director then we have nothing further to discuss. I guess the artist said I love my boss so much let me make Dante look like him, that's what happened. Next you are going to tell me Kamiya had no influence on Bayonetta's design because he wasn't the actual artist.
 
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Boya

Member
Jan 1, 2018
715
Why does people think a trilby is out of place on a longcoat wearing katana wielding supremacist?
 

a Question

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,218
The game itself is really well made. Mechanically in comparison to DMC4 it has better level design and pacing, ofcourse its not better in terms of Combat complexity but even in that department DMC is good at the very least.

As for character I saw what Ninja Theory tried to make in this cutscene. Dante kinda had an arc but the problem is though DMC Dante started to being likable (In some sense) other characters still were to try hard or one note.


Again mechanically game is good but its at odds with its aesthetic and ofc with baggage of the name it carries.
I have similar problem with new SFV character G.
His animations and moves are amazing and has style of a cool character, but his story and design makes me think that at capcom people who worked at his look/lore and animations/combat were at different mindset or department.

Like G has moves and style that Terry would respect but in lore and design G is a crazy dood who tries to get views online and for no reason martial artist and can channel earth's power?
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
The game itself is really well made. Mechanically in comparison to DMC4 it has better level design and pacing, ofcourse its not better in terms of Combat complexity but even in that department DMC is good at the very least.

As for character I saw what Ninja Theory tried to make i this cutscene. Dante kinda had an arc but the problem is though DMC Dante started to being likable (In some sense) other characters still were to try hard or one note.


Again mechanically game is good but its at odds with its aesthetic and ofc with baggage of the name it carries.
I have similar problem with new SFV character G. His animations and moves are amazing and has style of a cool character, but his story and design makes me think that at capcom people who worked at his look/lore and animations/combat were at different mindset or department.


I'm not a huge fan of DmC but I will talk up that scene forever.

It's the only time new Dante displays any character other than Cocky Badass. Where he tries his hardest to console Kat and can only scream in impotent rage when she's taken from him.

That, and the "I have a bigger dick" chat, are the only good bits of writing in DmC. Ask me why about the latter.
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,800
One thing I will NEVER forget about DmC is the re-release backpedalling on some stuff. They introduced lock-on, re-jigged the combat to be better, but best of all...they removed Vergil's fedora.

I'll never forget that one. Ever. Its just too funny.