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Noisepurge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,489
sounds like yet another Ouya project. Unless they can get a huge catalogue of existing PC or console games on it like OnLive tried. But they need to like, pay everyone.

Xbox Game Pass and Playstation Now are the first versions of this that have some resemblance of the right idea, but even they suffer from a poor catalogue of games and availability of the service in general.
 

Beef Stallmer

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
875
Sounds like your typical Google product;
release now (soon), try to fix or discontinue later.
Like their home, glass, AR, it will release with a lot of problems and then dropped completely or replaced. Just my 2 cents
 

NoWayOut

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,073
Google is one of the few players that could break in this market. However, I am very skeptical about their long term commitment. Lately it looks like their strategy has been throwing a bunch of stuff out there (often half baked) and see what sticks. That approach won't work with building a new gaming platform. It took MS years to break even.
If they plan to start with a streaming only service, they are going to face even more challenges. I am not convinced. Having said that, I would love for Google to prove me wrong.
 

klauskpm

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,247
Brazil
Google has everything in their advantage: target range, infrastructure, one of the best in software, etc, etc; but, they can fail. I hope they don't, because I'm found of streaming games.

Edit:
Talking about Google take on games... When Google was looking for companies doing games for VR, they acquired Owlchemy Labs (Job Simulator, Virtual Rick-ality). They didn't want them to restrict to just one platform, but anything VR related.

My take on that is, even if they don't know how to make games, they will find who knows and try to improve what they are already doing.
 
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Lime

Banned for use of an alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,266
I hope this bombs to hell and back. I don't want Google anywhere near game streaming and expanding their surveillance capitalism to video games.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,893
I will take it seriously when I see something substantive. That being said, if there is a company that is in the position to do something new and interesting, Google is that company.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,944
Because whoever is positioned best will profit the most once the technology catches up.

Back when we were all still using 56k modems the very idea of digital distribution for games, tv shows and movies seemed flawed and look now.

Internet speed growth is still tending at around 50% a year, in line with Nielsen's law. Valve introduced Steam back in 2003 the internet was not ready at the time for what they had planned, however entering the market early and allowing the technology to catch up with their vision has paid dividends. For reference, Origin didn't launch until 2011 which was far too late as Valve had already cornered the vast majority of the market.

Valve.


It's fairly clear you haven't tried nVidia's GeForce NOW for PC/Mac. It's pretty fantastic, especially for people like me, who live near where nVidia has great infrastructure and is on gigabit internet. Once the tech is more scalable and connections catch up (they already have in most metropolitan areas), this will be absolutely golden. And honestly, in terms of infrastructure and scalability, Google is uniquely positioned.

Internet speed isn't the only issue these services contend with. The bigger issue is latency, especially when that latency is variable (which it will be, because that's how the network is). Latency is not a problem that can be fully fixed, since the speed of light is a pretty hard barrier.

There's other problems as well, such as how you're highly unlikely to get a decent experience if there is a wireless hop in the connection, but latency is really the biggest one.
 

iswasdoes

Member
Nov 13, 2017
3,084
Londinium
I have always believed there are possible solutions to the latency issue if you have enough computing power at the back end to basically simulate enough different move possibilites in game, and hardware that is specially designed to only show you the right outcome.

To explain what I mean: Say the game is Tetris. You've got 4 input possibilities for every move - move shape left, right or down, or rotate shape. Following that there are another 4 move possibilities, and then another. So over the course of 5 seconds, let's say your got 4 to the power 5 possible move combinations.

5 seconds is more than enough time for the server to stream the 1024 possible outcomes.

Then your local hardware, that has no lag, just pics the right frames that correspond to your input.

Sure it would get super complex for e.g a multiplayer FPS game, but in principle I think it could work.

And even if it couldn't (I'm just a layman of course) I feel like people who say 'how do you solve the speed of light' aren't considering other possibilities that AI could play in solving the problem
 

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,673
The Milky Way
I have always believed there are possible solutions to the latency issue if you have enough computing power at the back end to basically simulate enough different move possibilites in game, and hardware that is specially designed to only show you the right outcome.

To explain what I mean: Say the game is Tetris. You've got 4 input possibilities for every move - move shape left, right or down, or rotate shape. Following that there are another 4 move possibilities, and then another. So over the course of 5 seconds, let's say your got 4 to the power 5 possible move combinations.

5 seconds is more than enough time for the server to stream the 1024 possible outcomes.

Then your local hardware, that has no lag, just pics the right frames that correspond to your input.

Sure it would get super complex for e.g a multiplayer FPS game, but in principle I think it could work.

And even if it couldn't (I'm just a layman of course) I feel like people who say 'how do you solve the speed of light' aren't considering other possibilities that AI could play in solving the problem
Even if that could work, it's going to need a hell of a lot more computing power on the server side - with a 3D game and analogue stick there are technically hundreds of possibilities just for the next single frame, so then you need hundreds of times the computing power which is wasted as only one frame is actually correct. It's so overly complicated and inefficient and to reduce lag it would have to actually do this for several seconds in advance which is hundreds of options multiplied by hundreds of options and so on just for each frame. You'd bring down the entirety of Google and the power grid just playing one game.
 

iswasdoes

Member
Nov 13, 2017
3,084
Londinium
Even if that could work, it's going to need a hell of a lot more computing power on the server side - with a 3D game and analogue stick there are technically hundreds of possibilities just for the next single frame, so then you need hundreds of times the computing power which is wasted as only one frame is actually correct. It's so overly complicated and inefficient and to reduce lag it would have to actually do this for several seconds in advance which is hundreds of options multiplied by hundreds of options and so on just for each frame. You'd bring down the entirety of Google and the power grid just playing one game.

I feel like google, whose infrastructure is processing millions of web searches, serving up millions of hours of YouTube video etc every second, could potentially handle it.

I have no idea how rendering 3D games actually works of course, but perhaps to create the frames for 100 different outcomes for the next move doesn't take literally 100x the computing power?

Also that's where AI can come in and relieve some of the legwork. Sure There are 100s if possible moves every second but some are much more likely than others. With people playing the same games the system will learn how to prioritise frames leading to greater efficientcy. Again, Google's specialty
 

TAoVG

Verified
Oct 27, 2017
95
USA
I have always believed there are possible solutions to the latency issue if you have enough computing power at the back end to basically simulate enough different move possibilites in game, and hardware that is specially designed to only show you the right outcome.

To explain what I mean: Say the game is Tetris. You've got 4 input possibilities for every move - move shape left, right or down, or rotate shape. Following that there are another 4 move possibilities, and then another. So over the course of 5 seconds, let's say your got 4 to the power 5 possible move combinations.

5 seconds is more than enough time for the server to stream the 1024 possible outcomes.

Then your local hardware, that has no lag, just pics the right frames that correspond to your input.

Sure it would get super complex for e.g a multiplayer FPS game, but in principle I think it could work.

And even if it couldn't (I'm just a layman of course) I feel like people who say 'how do you solve the speed of light' aren't considering other possibilities that AI could play in solving the problem

What you are asking the technology to do is just absolute magic. You are asking the system to render all possible end states, button presses, movements, timed to how a person may react and stream this across the web, in realtime. End state prediction is different from the route one may take to get there. Additionally, raw computer power on the back end only reduces latency of the game, logic, rendering, execution, etc. you have little control of the latency in other networks that your stream has to traverse to get the image back to you, at 30-60x per second, with no perceptible lag, artifacts, jitter, etc.

Pieces of what you suggest are already implemented. For example,. there are certain implementations that only stream pixels that change between frames and not the whole image, but that introduces a whole different set of weirdness under the right conditions.

Processing web searches and streaming trans-coded videos from repositories through YouTube is nothing at all like streaming a live, realtime video game. Even for simple games that can utilize standard compute units in a cloud service like AWS, it is sub-optimal. Oh, and local hardware has lag, absolutely. From wireless to frame processing in modern TVs, there is always lag to content with.
 

PSOreo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,260
Phil Harrison is a kiss of death to any gaming project. The man was there for the original PS3 botched announcement and early years and then the XboxOne launch etc.
 

KratosEnergyDrink

Using an alt account to circumvent a ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
Just like how Netflix ruined movies? I'm just saying if, and it's a big IF, they can make it the tech work well, this is going to be preferable to owning local hardware for many users

Game streaming just does not work with current internet technology, at least for games that require lag free input, like racer, shooter, jump&run, most RPGs etc.
 

finalflame

Product Management
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,538
Gonna leave this here for those who think it's impossible to have good latency with streaming services. This is my GeForce NOW latency test over WiFi on a 2014 rMBP.

NrXnYV0.png
 

Arebours

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
Just like how Netflix ruined movies? I'm just saying if, and it's a big IF, they can make it the tech work well, this is going to be preferable to owning local hardware for many users
Well that's just a false equivalence.
Movies and games are completely different. The success of Netflix says nothing about how a game streaming service would impact the industry.

Things like the ability to configure and mod, preservation of games, interface support and so on are immense concerns that are non factors with movies. You'd be a fool to believe that any streaming service will make a serious effort to care about those things. Also don't forget about things like friend lists, voip support, different display modes and so on. Then there's the whole walled garden aspect - there's no way a streaming service will allow anyone to upload and make their game available for streaming. I can only see this hurting indies and smaller devs.

More than anything I don't see a need for a streaming service. People are buying hardware and games at all time rates. It's not like with movies and tv where no convenient, legal and modern platform existed before the likes of Netflix. Furthermore, people don't consume games like they consume other media. Many gamers play only one or a few games at most per year. The more you look at the details the more you realize movies and games have next to nothing in common.

I feel like google, whose infrastructure is processing millions of web searches, serving up millions of hours of YouTube video etc every second, could potentially handle it.

I have no idea how rendering 3D games actually works of course, but perhaps to create the frames for 100 different outcomes for the next move doesn't take literally 100x the computing power?

Also that's where AI can come in and relieve some of the legwork. Sure There are 100s if possible moves every second but some are much more likely than others. With people playing the same games the system will learn how to prioritise frames leading to greater efficientcy. Again, Google's specialty
no way they could handle it and 100 is a minuscule fraction of what's necessary. With just one SNES controller(which is a much easier case than modern controllers with analog sticks and buttons, swipe interfaces and so on) you are already at 4096 different frames, and predictions would suck because when it misses it drops frames - not to mention the immense waste of computing power.
 
Last edited:

Jeffrey Guang

Member
Nov 4, 2017
724
Taiwn
Game streaming just does not work with current internet technology, at least for games that require lag free input, like racer, shooter, jump&run, most RPGs etc.

Not really. The fact that PS4 remote play and Xbox One Windows 10 streaming is workable and popular proves that the tech is there.
The real problem with game streaming service is content. Games are much, much more expensive than films to get the license if you're not the existing platform owners like the big three.
There's also the problem of native application. Even if its just a port, game studios still need extra time and manpower to do the porting, which I think is the biggest reason why APPLE TV failed as a game console. They simply can't get the support from devs.
 

cryptoadam

Banned
Jan 2, 2018
400
Sounds like your typical Google product;
release now (soon), try to fix or discontinue later.
Like their home, glass, AR, it will release with a lot of problems and then dropped completely or replaced. Just my 2 cents

100% agree.

Google never sees anything through.

It will be half baked and canned within a few years.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
The way to do this is to offer a shield like console and a virtual machine client for PCs. That way enthusiasts can get the hardware they want and play locally, and everyone else can stream on any device.
 

Xeontech

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,059
Gaming in the future is going to be Amazon vs Google, after they acquire/converge with the current gaming platforms.

You heard it here first.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,944
Gonna leave this here for those who think it's impossible to have good latency with streaming services. This is my GeForce NOW latency test over WiFi on a 2014 rMBP.

NrXnYV0.png
I mean, you can get decent latencies under ideal conditions.

But ideal conditions in your case would require that 1) you are physically close to the data center 2) network conditions between you and the data center are ideal, and 3) Wi-Fi conditions are ideal. #1 tends to stay pretty consistent (though if you're not close to one there's not much you can do about it) but #2 and #3 fluctuate a lot, especially #3. As a random example, I just tried pinging my router from my phone (meaning the only thing this is measuring is the direct link between the 2 devices), with the two a few feet apart with no obstructions, and with 5 packets I got ping times ranging from 2 ms to 121 ms. Running this test a few times yields very similar ranges (that 121 ms is actually on the lower end of the max latencies, too).

Point is, it doesn't stay like that anywhere near 100% of the time. Especially on Wi-Fi. And variable latency is much worse than fixed latency, because with fixed latency you can usually at least get used to it to some degree.
 

iswasdoes

Member
Nov 13, 2017
3,084
Londinium
What you are asking the technology to do is just absolute magic. You are asking the system to render all possible end states, button presses, movements, timed to how a person may react and stream this across the web, in realtime. End state prediction is different from the route one may take to get there. Additionally, raw computer power on the back end only reduces latency of the game, logic, rendering, execution, etc. you have little control of the latency in other networks that your stream has to traverse to get the image back to you, at 30-60x per second, with no perceptible lag, artifacts, jitter, etc.

Pieces of what you suggest are already implemented. For example,. there are certain implementations that only stream pixels that change between frames and not the whole image, but that introduces a whole different set of weirdness under the right conditions.

Processing web searches and streaming trans-coded videos from repositories through YouTube is nothing at all like streaming a live, realtime video game. Even for simple games that can utilize standard compute units in a cloud service like AWS, it is sub-optimal. Oh, and local hardware has lag, absolutely. From wireless to frame processing in modern TVs, there is always lag to content with.

But is it possible tho? The point I'm making is that people usually cite the speed of light to be a hard barrier in the latency problem that makes streaming impossible. My solution is probably crazy as I just made it up, but I'm trying to demonstrate that there are ways around the problem. Also streaming services are already dealing with the latency of the network, with varying success, but I'm talking specifically about input lag.

And I know there is local hardware lag, but in the context of this conversation if you can eliminate the lag from from the server side and reduce it to the 20-30ms people are used to from local hardware, then that would be a success.
 

TAoVG

Verified
Oct 27, 2017
95
USA
But is it possible tho? The point I'm making is that people usually cite the speed of light to be a hard barrier in the latency problem that makes streaming impossible. My solution is probably crazy as I just made it up, but I'm trying to demonstrate that there are ways around the problem. Also streaming services are already dealing with the latency of the network, with varying success, but I'm talking specifically about input lag.

And I know there is local hardware lag, but in the context of this conversation if you can eliminate the lag from from the server side and reduce it to the 20-30ms people are used to from local hardware, then that would be a success.

If you could do it, sure. But the problem is that we can't do it. Not today, and not for a while. Advances in 5G, VPNs, edge base computing, etc will all help to minimize the issues, but, compared to playing locally, it will still suffer. As for the "speed of light" problem, it is shorthand for saying there is a hard limit to physics and you can only make the calculations, transport, handoff, etc. work so well. Another way to think about the complexities is the old saying, "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link." With the Internet, there are several weak links between you and a server that a service may need to contend. You don't control the mending of those links either.

As for the example you cited, as you stated and while creative, is just not possible for the vast majority of any game you would want to play. Tic-Tac-Toe? That would work though!