• The GiftBot 2.0 Launch Giveaway Extravaganza has come to a close with an astounding 8073 games given away to the community by 696 members, a huge success thanks to you! The gifting now continues with more official prizes in the new Gaming Giveaways |OT|. Leftover Steam codes are also being given away to the PC Gaming Era community.

Google Stadia Pro (4K/60, 5.1 surround) $9.99 a month. Stadia Base (1080/60) requires no subscription.

Plankton2

Member
Dec 12, 2017
1,597
Yeah it's a weird one, As technically you don't even own that £60 purchase of a game either, Wonder when they'll actually implement their family sharing aswell since their rivals all offer it. Not to mention paying for 4K at £10 a month which at least when you buy the console for £500 you get to own it and do whatever with it, When you reach £500 levels with Stadia through the 4K sub you..........won't own anything, Unless i have all that wrong.
I don't think you would own anything on the console side, but the deal they made with AMD is they would be continuously updating the hardware. So the version of Stadia you spend in Nov 2019, might be completely different on the console side in Nov 2021.
 

ClarkusDarkus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,925
I don't think you would own anything on the console side, but the deal they made with AMD is they would be continuously updating the hardware. So the version of Stadia you spend in Nov 2019, might be completely different on the console side in Nov 2021.
Yeah whats his face said it to Geoff, That Harrison guy, Geoff asked him if going forward they will move with the times regarding the specs and if they would change it, And The guy said yes most definately. Wonder if they would then charge more a month though.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,884
Seattle
It’s a brand new game console stepping into the market, of course it’s going to have exclusive games.
Yes, people keep pointing this out as if it's some revelation.

As a consumer, and not a CEO of a company that owns a game platform, I do not like when these companies buy exclusives in general.

But in the end, I like game consoles, and I buy game consoles. So while exclusivity removes some choice of platform for me, I still generally have those platforms to play the games.

I have no interest in game streaming, at all. So when a game gets bought "exclusively" for a game streaming platform I am going to grumble about it.

And apparently get a half dozen responses from people explaining the basics of game platform economics as if I'm 4 years old.
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,684
Yes, people keep pointing this out as if it's some revelation.
...
And apparently get a half dozen responses from people explaining the basics of game platform economics as if I'm 4 years old.
Because you were complaining that everyone wasn't getting completely up in arms about a game company doing what every game company does and has always done and always will do. As if this was something you hadn't expected and that was exceptionally bad or evil, rather than the norm. Or as if this was a special situation unlike anything that has happened before, but in reality it's just a new game console that you don't happen to have the hardware in your house or have to pay money for, so of course it is going to make the same business decisions. Comparing it to a game launcher making PC games exclusive, when these are not PC games nor this just a launcher.
 
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riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,884
Seattle
Because you were complaining that everyone wasn't getting completely up in arms about a game company doing what every game company does and has always done and always will do. As if this was something you hadn't expected and that was exceptionally bad or evil, rather than the norm. Or as if this was a special situation unlike anything that has happened before, but in reality it's just a new game console that you don't happen to have the hardware in your house or have to pay money for, so of course it is going to make the same business decisions. Comparing it to a game launcher making PC games exclusive, when these are not PC games nor this just a launcher.
So an online service that requires constant great internet isn't a "special situation"? Every game company has "consoles" (this isn't a console, but you called it one) that require 24/7 fast internet with low latency to play games?

Either way quit claiming I did or said things I didn't; I didn't say I was surprised, I didn't call anyone evil. I said "ugh" because I don't personally want Google buying up exclusives. It's your business if you want to cheerlead for them but quit acting surprised and confused why someone isn't.
 

MXT

Banned
May 13, 2019
646
So an online service that requires constant great internet isn't a "special situation"? Every game company has "consoles" (this isn't a console, but you called it one) that require 24/7 fast internet with low latency to play games?

Either way quit claiming I did or said things I didn't; I didn't say I was surprised, I didn't call anyone evil. I said "ugh" because I don't personally want Google buying up exclusives. It's your business if you want to cheerlead for them but quit acting surprised and confused why someone isn't.
No one is entitled to be able to play everything on the type of platform they personal prefer. No more so than me being entitled to play Nintendo Switch titles on a PC or some such nonsense. Complaining about Stadia having exclusives comes off as immature.
 
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Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,684
So an online service that requires constant great internet isn't a "special situation"? Every game company has "consoles" (this isn't a console, but you called it one) that require 24/7 fast internet with low latency to play games?
How does that make this any different in terms of exclusives? It's still a brand new game console from a new console manufacturer, even if it's not in your living room. How it functions makes zero difference for exclusives. It's nothing like the example you gave, Epic Games Store. Yes, you need acceptable internet, just like if you want to play PS4 exclusives you need a PS4, if you want to play Switch exclusives you need a Switch.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,884
Seattle
How does that make this any different in terms of exclusives? It's still a brand new game console from a new console manufacturer, even if it's not in your living room. How it functions makes zero difference for exclusives. It's nothing like the example you gave, Epic Games Store. Yes, you need acceptable internet, just like if you want to play PS4 exclusives you need a PS4, if you want to play Switch exclusives you need a Switch.
Because I’m speaking as a consumer not a gaming company like you apparently are.

I’m not criticizing a business move I’m saying what I want as a consumer. As a consumer Stadia is incredibly different than a game console, I shouldn’t have to point that out.

As a consumer in general third parties being bought as exclusives sucks. Apparently you are all Google executives, congrats on your success .
 

thebishop

Member
Nov 10, 2017
1,814
Because I’m speaking as a consumer not a gaming company like you apparently are.

I’m not criticizing a business move I’m saying what I want as a consumer. As a consumer Stadia is incredibly different than a game console, I shouldn’t have to point that out.

As a consumer in general third parties being bought as exclusives sucks. Apparently you are all Google executives, congrats on your success .
Maybe you can just disagree with people without making accusations that people are being paid to disagree with you.

On topic: Do yall think there will be more than one more Stadia Connect before November?
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,884
Seattle
Maybe you can just disagree with people without making accusations that people are being paid to disagree with you.
You disagreed with me? All you've done is defend the business decision when I have not once criticized the business decision; that's not disagreeing with me. That's why I'm frustrated, even spelled out that I am speaking as a consumer and you deleted that part of my post in your response to me to continue defending the business decision I never criticized.
 

thebishop

Member
Nov 10, 2017
1,814
You disagreed with me? All you've done is defend the business decision when I have not once criticized the business decision; that's not disagreeing with me. That's why I'm frustrated, even spelled out that I am speaking as a consumer and you deleted that part of my post in your response to me to continue defending the business decision I never criticized.
Oh hi there.

Apparently you are all Google executives, congrats on your success .

I really hope you are some paid astroturfer lol

It's your business if you want to cheerlead for them
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,884
Seattle
What? I never denied I said those things?

"Oh hi there" awesome post dude.

That's me being frustrated that all you guys keep doing is repeating back "this is how businesses operate" as if that is somehow relevant to my comments. Everyone knows how businesses operate; I don't EXPECT google not to operate in that way, I am not SURPRISED google is operating in that way, if I was google I'd do the same thing (I'm not criticising the business decision.)

Here's the thing though, we aren't google.. hence why I don't have to LIKE that they are doing it. Just like I don't LIKE when MS buys 3rd party exclusivity or Sony does it. Hence my repeated frustrated references to you guys acting like you are paid off because you are dismissing my feelings as a consumer with "well businesses do that."
 
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Dunlop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,713
What? I never denied I said those things?

"Oh hi there" awesome post dude.
Calling a poster an astroturfer without any type of proof is supposed to be a bannable offence, I recommend letting this go.

Stadia threads bring me back to the shitshow of Neogaf when the XB1 and PS4 was announced, anyone who tried to mention the XB1 positively either had their thread/post derailed or was accused of being an astroturfer.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,884
Seattle
Calling a poster an astroturfer without any type of proof is supposed to be a bannable offence, I recommend letting this go.

Stadia threads bring me back to the shitshow of Neogaf when the XB1 and PS4 was announced, anyone who tried to mention the XB1 positively either had their thread/post derailed or was accused of being an astroturfer.
MXT is in another thread claiming Google is immune to the very nature of the internet, and that Stadia magically will not suffer from any lag or bandwidth issues. He claims he has some sort of credentials to backup that absolute lie that is impossible. He's in yet another thread proclaiming that we all don't really own software so nobody should worry about Stadia/other sub services because it's no different, proclaiming in that thread that he is a legal expert.

He then called me immature in this thread, so yeah I threw around the "astroturfer" tag, the mods can warn me for it if they want but they really should look at the guy's post history. Nearly every post on this forum is a defense of Stadia and the statements he makes are patently ridiculous.

But I'm not sure how I am the one de-railing here; I made a pretty simple comment about how I'm weary of Google buying 3rd party exclusivity and got a bunch of endless not needed defenses of Google.
 

MXT

Banned
May 13, 2019
646
MXT is in another thread claiming Google is immune to the very nature of the internet, and that Stadia magically will not suffer from any lag or bandwidth issues. He claims he has some sort of credentials to backup that absolute lie that is impossible. He's in yet another thread proclaiming that we all don't really own software so nobody should worry about Stadia/other sub services because it's no different, proclaiming in that thread that he is a legal expert.

He then called me immature in this thread, so yeah I threw around the "astroturfer" tag, the mods can warn me for it if they want but they really should look at the guy's post history. Nearly every post on this forum is a defense of Stadia and the statements he makes are patently ridiculous.
I have done none of what you claim. I have thoughtful, intellectually sound opinions. That’s it. That’s I disagree with you does not make me an ‘astroturfer’, and you saying so is offensive.

I am happy to back up any claims I’ve made on this forum with moderation staff in private, if they feel those claims require such.
 

Dunlop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,713
But I'm not sure how I am the one de-railing here; I made a pretty simple comment about how I'm weary of Google buying 3rd party exclusivity and got a bunch of endless not needed defenses of Google.
Sorry was not saying you specifically were derailing the thread, I was generalizing all Stadia threads at this time. There is almost no discussion of what could be possible and instead is endless fear mongering or talks about US internet infrastructure, ect..

Your opinion on 3rd party exclusives are understandable but as Google just created there own first party Studio in the past few months I don't see what other choice they would have.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,884
Seattle
I have done none of what you claim. I have thoughtful, intellectually sound opinions. That’s it. That’s I disagree with you does not make me an ‘astroturfer’, and you saying so is offensive.

I am happy to back up any claims I’ve made on this forum with moderation staff in private, if they feel those claims require such.
Here you are proclaiming that Stadia is immune to the nature of the internet, making statements you absolutely cannot make and that aren't true (Google has no control over whether someone's internet connection lags out or has bandwidth issues once packets leave their network): https://www.resetera.com/threads/engadget-xbox-is-fighting-google-not-playstation.123775/page-10#post-21974035

Here in the same thread you are wrong about compression algorithms, clearly presenting yourself as an expert: https://www.resetera.com/threads/engadget-xbox-is-fighting-google-not-playstation.123775/post-21962075

Here you are proclaiming that Stadia changes nothing and that software licensing always meant we never owned anything: https://www.resetera.com/threads/stadia-subscriptions-and-the-death-of-game-ownership-the-jimquisition.125258/post-22181197

And in that same thread you clearly want people to believe you are a legal expert, prcolaiming it would take weeks of you teaching someone about law for them to understand: https://www.resetera.com/threads/stadia-subscriptions-and-the-death-of-game-ownership-the-jimquisition.125258/post-22189307

Oh and here you are in this thread claiming not of that is true.

Apparently you are a lawyer who specializes in understanding all the technologies surrounding game streaming. Left and right proclaiming people are "wrong" about things endlessly when you have no clue what you are talking about (maybe on the legal stuff, but the tech stuff you are pretty much entirely wrong on..)
 

MXT

Banned
May 13, 2019
646
Here you are proclaiming that Stadia is immune to the nature of the internet, making statements you absolutely cannot make and that aren't true (Google has no control over whether someone's internet connection lags out or has bandwidth issues once packets leave their network): https://www.resetera.com/threads/engadget-xbox-is-fighting-google-not-playstation.123775/page-10#post-21974035

Here in the same thread you are wrong about compression algorithms, clearly presenting yourself as an expert: https://www.resetera.com/threads/engadget-xbox-is-fighting-google-not-playstation.123775/post-21962075

Here you are proclaiming that Stadia changes nothing and that software licensing always meant we never owned anything: https://www.resetera.com/threads/stadia-subscriptions-and-the-death-of-game-ownership-the-jimquisition.125258/post-22181197

And in that same thread you clearly want people to believe you are a legal expert, prcolaiming it would take weeks of you teaching someone about law for them to understand: https://www.resetera.com/threads/stadia-subscriptions-and-the-death-of-game-ownership-the-jimquisition.125258/post-22189307

Oh and here you are in this thread claiming not of that is true.

Apparently you are a lawyer who specializes in understanding all the technologies surrounding game streaming. Left and right proclaiming people are "wrong" about things endlessly when you have no clue what you are talking about (maybe on the legal stuff, but the tech stuff you are pretty much entirely wrong on..)
The first one is you misreading what I actually said. The problem is that things you believe to be fact are not actually so.

The poster in question was wrong and, again the actual text of my post (as opposed to whatever is in your head) does not include me presenting myself as an expert. The very first post on the following page of that thread is another poster agreeing with me: https://www.resetera.com/threads/engadget-xbox-is-fighting-google-not-playstation.123775/page-7

Yes, that is correct and is not a controversial statement.

Yes.

I am licensed to practice law in several states and also understand how technologies work. I am also a member of a guild and have access to film screeners, something I posted about yesterday. These aren't rare things that do not go together. The statements I have made on the subject of Stadia are all correct and non-controversial among people that understand the subjects I post on. Just standard, non-interesting posts.

Happy to backup any of my posts or stated credentials with moderation staff if they feel so is appropriate. It continues to be inappropriate for you to accuse someone of 'astroturfing' without any proof.
 
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riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,884
Seattle
The first one is you misreading what I actually said. The problem is that things you believe to be fact are not actually so.
You literally claimed someone who experienced Lag/Bandwidth issues on PSNow would not have experienced them on Stadia. That is a complete BS statement because you have no clue whether they would experienced those issues with Stadia. So yeah,. that is you proclaiming that Stadia is immune to the very nature of the internet.

The poster in question was wrong and, again the actual text of my post (as opposed to whatever is in your head) does include me presenting myself as an expert.
The poster is not wrong, at all. You have no clue how video compression works apparently yet repeatedly told him he was wrong.

Video compression relies on removing redundancy in the frames, in order to remove redundancy the compression algorithm has to know the upcoming frames, the farther it can "look" the more it can compress. If you record a video of a person standing in front of a green screen a compression algorithm can "know" that the green background is largely redundant and doesn't have to store that part of every frame. For obvious reasons a game stream can't do that.. yet there you are in that thread proclaiming someone else doesn't understand.. even poorly re-phrasing their correct statement.

Beyond that the higher the compression rate the slower the compression and decompression, yet another obvious reason that game streams can't compress at the same rate as a recorded video.

I don't see how you can tell people they are wrong about things and then deny that you are presenting yourself as an expert.
 

MXT

Banned
May 13, 2019
646
You literally claimed someone who experienced Lag/Bandwidth issues on PSNow would not have experienced them on Stadia. That is a complete BS statement because you have no clue whether they would experienced those issues with Stadia. So yeah,. that is you proclaiming that Stadia is immune to the very nature of the internet.



The poster is not wrong, at all. You have no clue how video compression works apparently yet repeatedly told him he was wrong.

Video compression relies on removing redundancy in the frames, in order to remove redundancy the compression algorithm has to know the upcoming frames, the farther it can "look" the more it can compress. If you record a video of a person standing in front of a green screen a compression algorithm can "know" that the green background is largely redundant and doesn't have to store that part of every frame. For obvious reasons a game stream can't do that.. yet there you are in that thread proclaiming someone else doesn't understand.. even poorly re-phrasing their correct statement.
Yes. PS Now uses completely different technologies as compared to what has been used in the Stadia trial. This is public knowledge. The specific kinds of issues prone to PS Now are specific to the first generation technologies used to create PS Now.

You continue to willfully misread what I actually say, opting to replace my actual words with your bad faith interpretation.

Yeah, again, all of this is wrong. Modern video compression technologies do not rely on predicting or otherwise 'knowing in advance' what is going to happen in a piece of content. Each individual frame can be encoded as the frame arrives without needing access to past or future frames. By reducing latency in other places - think latency already present in the game or game engine - the latency incurred by encoding video can be allowed for. This has already been done. Public demos of both xCloud and Stadia have occurred. The tech works.

Additionally, even if your complete misunderstanding of how H265 works were correct, it would not matter. Games are software. A game can be modified. Games will be built with the xCloud SDK which could - if it were to actually be needed, which it is not - report possible future frames (based on current player behavior and basic prediction) back to the cloud so as to do whatever nonsense you think is required for H265. You lose on both points - you don't understand how video encoding works and you don't understand how software works. Let's take your argument further - how does Low Latency HLS work? How many frames in advance do you believe are required in order to encode video? Do you believe that the answer is 'all of them?' How does live streaming video work, in that case?

The problem we are having here is that you do not know you are talking about and you get very upset when people call you out on those grounds. You pout and whine and accuse people of astroturfing, all of which are not acceptable.
 
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riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,884
Seattle
Yeah, again, all of this is wrong. Modern video compression technologies do not rely on predicting or otherwise 'knowing in advance' what is going to happen in a piece of content. Each individual frame can be encoded as the frame arrives without needing access to past or future frames. By reducing latency in other places - think latency already present in the game or game engine - the latency incurred by encoding video can be allowed for. This has already been done. Public demos of both xCloud and Stadia have occured. The tech works.

How does Hevc work?
In most ways, HEVC is an extension of the concepts in H.264/MPEG-4 AVC. Both work by comparing different parts of a frame of video to find areas that are redundant, both within a single frame and between consecutive frames. These redundant areas are then replaced with a short description instead of the original pixels.
Modern compression algorithms are better at compressing video in real time, that does not negate the fact they can compress MORE when not having to compress in real time.

And HEVC also has various methods that increase or decrease the computational power needed to compress and decompress on either end, aka the time it takes to compress and decompress. Again, for obvious reasons game streaming would need to be tuned for speed over compression level.
 

MXT

Banned
May 13, 2019
646
Modern compression algorithms are better at compressing video in real time, that does not negate the fact they can compress MORE when not having to compress in real time.
Yes, of course! You can get a better (lower file size) result by having the entire work accessible at time of encoding. But you are not required to do so. H264 specifically supports uses cases where the entire work is not available, like live streaming. H265 was built from the ground up around those use cases. Low Latency HLS works great. Old school HLS works great. Live streaming video in general (DASH, etc) works great. Game streaming (Stadia trial - an H265 product) works great.

So what is your argument, exactly? You've gone and conceded defeat on what you appear to be arguing, so I am a little confused.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,884
Seattle
Yes, of course! You can get a better (lower file size) result by having the entire work accessible at time of encoding.
Which is what Netflix and anyone streaming pre-recorded video does.. you proclaimed in the other thread Netflix doesn't, and that nobody would :"want to."

Now you are gaslighting me.

Have a day, couldn't care less if it's nice or not.
 

MXT

Banned
May 13, 2019
646
Which is what Netflix and anyone streaming pre-recorded video does.. you proclaimed in the other thread Netflix doesn't, and that nobody would :"want to."

Now you are gaslighting me.

Have a day.
Netflix is a bit different. They aren't using old 'encode in advance, deliver to consumer' H264/5. There are products that use 'encode in advance' h265/4, like the iTunes TV/Movie store. The existence of them has no relevance to Stadia, though.

Encoding in advance and delivering that to consumers has a long list of disadvantages that are not incurred by encode-on-demand methods of delivery. Just one of the issues in play is the ability to digitally watermark delivered content, for anti-piracy purposes. Another (this one relevant to Netflix) is supporting quality levels in a meaningful way - unless one wants to encode to every possible resolution and frame rate, it makes a lot more sense to dynamically generate what each user needs and retain only the most commonly streamed versions, generating the others as needed. Netflix is built upon H264/5 live streaming technologies. When a user starts a stream, they may or may not receive an existing encoded version of a piece of content or they may receive a new, encoded-on-demand version. Generally a user watching content over a cellular network will receive both over the course of their viewing session, going back and forth based on network speed. The type of device they are watching on and the resolution and frame rate they are watching at is just one factor of many that is used in determining by Netflix what to deliver.

There are advantages posed by encoding in advance - lower file size for consumers, lower computational demands for the business - but consumers have clearly expressed that they don't care about those advantages each and every time they stream an HLS product.

You'd know all of this, if you understood the subject you are posting about in any real way. Netflix didn't build out an infrastructure of fairly serious computational strength around the world just to encode some shows, save them to disk, and serve that file to consumers when they request a stream. Think!
 
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riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,884
Seattle
Netflix is a bit different. They aren't using old 'encode in advance, deliver to consumer' H264/5. iTunes does, though. There are products that use 'encode in advance' h265/4. The existence of them has no relevance to Stadia, though.

Encoding in advance and delivering that to consumers has a long list of disadvantages that are not incurred by encode-on-demand methods of delivery. Just one of the issues in play is the ability to digitally watermark delivered content, for anti-piracy purposes. Another is supporting quality levels in a meaningful way - unless one wants to encode to every possible resolution and frame rate, it makes a lot more sense to dynamically generate what each user needs and retain only the most commonly streamed versions, generating the others as needed.

You'd know this, if you understood the subject you are posting about in any real way.
More gaslighting and goalpost moving.

Netflix encoding techniques heavily rely on analyzing the entire video:
As described in more detail in this blog post, the Dynamic Optimizer analyzes an entire video over multiple quality and resolution points in order to obtain the optimal compression trajectory for an encode, given an optimization objective. In particular, we utilize VMAF, the Netflix subjective video quality metric, as our optimization objective, since our goal is to generate streams at the best perceptual quality.
I don't know whether they are still pre-storing a bunch of different versions of their encodes, that was not what we are discussing and is just you moving the goalpost.

Their algorithms analyse the entire video to encode; a game stream can't do that. You literally claimed Netflix wouldn't do that and that their encoding is the same as game streaming. Using the same codec does not make them equal.

But since you brought it up; I have no clue why you think Netflix isn't pre-encoding video.. they've always done that from what I know; create many versions of any given title and store them and they switch between resolutions on the fly depending on bandwidth.

I don't have any reason to beleive their latest tech is any different, here they are explaining how the tech goes about encoding things during non-peak hours:


We’ve implemented the dynamic optimizer framework in our encoding pipeline, leveraging our scalable cloud infrastructure and under-utilized cloud instances during non-peak streaming hours [13],[14]. We’ve applied this encoding system to AVC-High and VP9 streams, improving our members’ video quality as well as saving bandwidth. Stay tuned for another tech blog describing our implementation and results!
That's them describing their new encoding pipeline is re-encoding videos when the system has free instances during non-peak hours. Why would they do that if they aren't serving up pre-encoded video? lol

Mr expert, please answer.
 

MXT

Banned
May 13, 2019
646
More gaslighting and goalpost moving.

Netflix encoding techniques heavily rely on analyzing the entire video:


I don't know whether they are still pre-storing a bunch of different versions of their encodes, that was not what we are discussing and is just you moving the goalpost.

Their algorithms analyse the entire video to encode; a game stream can't do that. You literally claimed Netflix wouldn't do that and that their encoding is the same as game streaming. Using the same codec does not make them equal.
You're behaving unreasonably, yet again. My actual post does not contradict anything in the Netflix blog you linked.

H265 was built around live streaming. Scenarios where future frames are not available - not like current HLS, where delay is purposefully built in so as to allow for high quality encoding. Like Low Latency HLS, where delays are eliminated and the product is ahead of cable TV. H265 was built for this stuff. The latency to adjust (for a game, for live sports) for is a possible thing to do (the level of latency incurred by encoding is so much lower) unlike the old days of H264, where there wasn't really a way to do it - you'd get a PS Now/OnLive level product.

Netflix uses H264/5 and various methods of delivery of H264/5 content. They do not have custom video compression algorithms in play here - this isn't Silicon Valley. Netflix uses the same technologies that the rest of the industry uses and does not deny this.
 
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riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,884
Seattle
OK so just endless gas-lighting from you. I literally say the words "using the same codec" in that damn post and you make your entire reply based on some BS like I claimed they use different codecs ignoring that the TOPIC AT HAND IS WHETHER THEY ANALYSE THE ENTIRE VIDEO OR NOT WHICH GAME STREAMING CANT DO THUS CANT COMPRESS AS MUCH.
 

MXT

Banned
May 13, 2019
646
OK so just endless gas-lighting from you. I literally say the words "using the same codec" in that damn post and you make your entire reply based on some BS like I claimed they use different codecs ignoring that the TOPIC AT HAND IS WHETHER THEY ANALYSE THE ENTIRE VIDEO OR NOT WHICH GAME STREAMING CANT DO THUS CANT COMPRESS AS MUCH.
It's like you can't accept that more than one thing can be possible at once: that Netflix serves up pre-encoded content, that Netflix serves up encoded-on-demand content, that various factors that I have gone over in a prior post explain why they operate this way, that none of this relates to Stadia.

No shouty all caps posting changes the reality at hand here.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,884
Seattle
It's like you can't accept that more than one thing can be possible at once: that Netflix serves up pre-encoded content
MXT said:
Netflix is a bit different. They aren't using old 'encode in advance, deliver to consumer' H264/5.
MXT said:
You'd know all of this, if you understood the subject you are posting about in any real way. Netflix didn't build out an infrastructure of fairly serious computational strength around the world just to encode some shows, save them to disk, and serve that file to consumers when they request a stream. Think!
Endless gaslighting.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,884
Seattle
I literally posted a blog post from the Netflix tech team about how they are deploying their own custom algorithms and you responded with this:
the Netflix Video Algorithms team has been working on more efficient compression algorithms that enable Netflix to deliver the same or better picture quality while using less bandwidth.
MTX said:
They do not have custom video compression algorithms in play here - this isn't Silicon Valley. Netflix uses the same technologies that the rest of the industry uses and does not deny this.
LOL amazing, and you threw in a condescending comment about "Silicon Valley." Endlessly presenting yourself as some expert... while being wrong over and over.

And I like how you are proclaiming now that Netflix has nothing to do with Stadia; when in that other thread you kept repeating that Netflix and Stadia can accomplish the exact same compression. Which is the basis for this entire conversation: you were very wrong about that yet presented yourself as an expert.
 

MXT

Banned
May 13, 2019
646
User Banned (2 Week): Continued pattern of hostility towards other members over platforms and services; muliple related infractions
I literally posted a blog post from the Netflix tech team about how they are deploying their own custom algorithms and you responded with this:



LOL amazing, and you threw in a condescending comment about "Silicon Valley."

And I like how you are proclaiming now that Netflix has nothing to do with Stadia; when in that other thread you kept repeating that Netflix and Stadia can accomplish the exact same compression. Which is the basis for this entire conversation: you were very wrong about that yet presented yourself as an expert.
The post from the Netflix tech team does not contradict my post. The problem is that you believe things are one way, but they are the other way.

Netflix delivers an H264/H265 product. Netflix does not deny this. Netflix uses viewership data from each region to determine which shows to serve up as fully (all quality levels available) encoded in advance, which to serve up as partially (only certain quality levels) encoded in advance, which to encode on the fly. Netflix does not deny this, and I do not deny this. My post earlier covers this in depth.

As I have already stated, my earlier posts do not present me as an expert. You are reading into my posts and assigning words and roles that I do not claim. I never claimed, for instance, that Netflix and Stadia will achieve the exact same compression ratios. They will use similar levels of bandwidth for a similar level of quality and frames delivered - 60 frames at 20mbps from Netflix will be similar to 60 frames at 20mbps from Stadia. Again, stop assigning beliefs and statements to me that I never made and don't necessarily believe. Stick to the actual words of my posts, presented in context.

Since there is no substantive disagreement between what you cite and what I post, I don't think we have anything else to talk about.
 

MXT

Banned
May 13, 2019
646
Netflix: Netflix Video Algorithms team has been working on more efficient compression algorithms

MTX: They do not have custom video compression algorithms in play here



LOL
One of the problems is that you don't understand the content of the Netflix post. Netflix is talking about determining ways to encode content to H264/5 in a more efficient way. They are talking about generating an industry-standard output in a faster, less computationally demanding way than other parties. I refer you back to my actual posts.

If Netflix, say, were to be developing their own brand-new codec, H2Netflix or something, that would contradict my post. This is more along the lines of a MP3 store opting not to use LAME to encode to MP3 and instead develop their own in-house MP3 encoder.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,884
Seattle
I'm well aware of what the article is describing; it's an algorithm that acts ahead of H265 (or other codecs, I believe they use different ones for downloads vs streams) to separate the video into shot based chunks, because H265 and other codecs are more efficient when the lighting/backgrounds/etc. don't change over time.

But you were saying? It's still a custom algorithm.. and.. it's described as an "encoding algorithm" or a "compression algorithm" because that's what it exists for.

ENTIRE POINT BEING that pre-recorded video can compress more efficiently, with a codec alone, or with a custom "chunking" mechanism it's all for the same reason... because the encoder can analyse the entire video stream. You denied this concept in the other thread, literally claiming that H265 doesn't rely on redundancy in frames.

I mean MAYBE you misunderstood that the guy was referring to redundancy in frames, but you appeared to be completely unaware of the concept in this post:


He's describing how the encoders know where the pixels will be, aka can calculate redundancy. And in your own amazingly condescending way you denied this very concept.
 
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Lonely1

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,169
Arguing that compressing a full length video encoding isn't more efficient than real time encoding is arguing against the well stablished field of information theory. What is this madness going on here?

If a particular compressing algorithm isn't using the full video to its encoding (or at least several frames ahead) than is doing it for its detriment.
 

Dunlop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,713
Arguing that compressing a full length video encoding isn't more efficient than real time encoding is arguing against the information theory. What is this madness going on here?

If a particular compressing algorithm isn't using the full video to its encoding (or at least several frames ahead) than is doing it for its detriment.
There is no actual new Stadia news to digest so posters are restless and turning on each other : )
 

striderno9

The Fallen
Oct 31, 2017
1,573
New York, NY
So I preordered this thing to check it out. Worst case scenario it ends up being a really expensive Chromecast.

But as someone who mainly console games and owns all Macs at home this, I hope will be a gateway to high-end PC gaming.
 

Valtor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15
lol... so... do you think we'll get a couple more Stadia Connects before November?
I think we'll have one right before, Nintendo style, to prop up hype and show off all the things it can do. There's still a lot we don't know I'd be surprised if it got released into the wild without more information getting shared, and a Stadia Connect would feel like the best way to do that!
 

GFdoom

Member
Oct 27, 2017
71
NYC
Anyone working with Stadia in this thread, please say something about the system we don't know (if you can). Folks here seem to be getting rabid and turning on one another. We all just want to be friends here and support a potential new game changer in the video game space :)
 

GFdoom

Member
Oct 27, 2017
71
NYC
this is def' one of the reasons I'm interested in the service. I've always wanted to get into the pc side of gaming (was always jealous of the 60fps high res games), but the cost of gfx cards, monitors, etc have kept me away.
 

Dunlop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,713
Anyone working with Stadia in this thread, please say something about the system we don't know (if you can). Folks here seem to be getting rabid and turning on one another. We all just want to be friends here and support a potential new game changer in the video game space :)
Probably under NDA to stay quiet. The real launch its next year so I doubt they care at the moment about generating hype.

November will be a controlled launch and give them time to troubleshoot issues

When they do I'm predicting a while lot of YouTube ads lol
 

thebishop

Member
Nov 10, 2017
1,814
I don’t care, I’m excited for this dumb thing lol
Yeah... it would be good if there was at least one thread where we could discuss what's actually cool about this without like 100% naysayers making the same arguments over and over. Like yeah, game ownership is a thing, google is a thing, latency is a thing... nobody is ignoring them.