Gordon Ramsay planning to open authentic Asian restaurant. People think it's cuisine appropriation.

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Oct 25, 2017
1,400
Food is meant to be appropriated. Just don’t present your food as authentic when it’s not.

We wouldn’t have food like Tacos Al Pastor if it weren’t for the mingling of cultures in food.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,044
Imagine believing that food shouldn't be one of those things shared among different cultures, how fucking boring a world this would be. This is pretty stupid, let food be free from this shitty "outrage".
Chefs traveling all over the globe and not being able to use traditional methods and dishes they learn from the cultures they visited would be a shame, of course as long as they pay proper respect to the place of origin, but still, who'd think it'd be a good idea to claim "cultural appropiation" in this regard?
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,087
I was going to post the same thing. So an American place doing bad Mexican authentic horchata is cultural appropriation of a cultural appropriation of the authentic Valencian horchata? I think I'm getting dizzy now 😂
Not really lol
Only commenting on the difference between Valencian and Mexican horchata.
Or you could just enjoy delicious horchata lol
Amen! Haven't tried the Mexican one, but if people like it it must be good lol
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,508
You know I was kidding, right?

But the idea of food appropriation is silly. What should be debated and criticized is the use of the word "authentic".
How it's being marketed is EXACTLY what's being debated, but people are more interested in drive by posting about defending a rich white guy cooking whatever he wants as if this exists in a fucking vacuum or he's just doing it at home.
 
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Oct 26, 2017
93
Leeds
I cannot believe food appropriation is a thing now, its a logical leap that i just cannot even remotely get my head around! We've had cultural appropriation about clothing, styles you name it and now food? i just don't even! what happened to multiculturalism? this seems like some extreme left wing version of self segregation at this point.
Honestly now this is surely made up by Fox news to rile their base right? because it feels like a made up hoax to rile up MAGA nuts
[sarcasm]All i know is that the 'Indian' Takeaway near my house that also sells 'Chinese' food best watch out, especially since half of it is a mixture of Thai and other eastern food styles, is this institutional racism on their part?[/sarcasm]
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,275
JP
Everyone should be able to cook any kind of food. And to experiment with all kinds of food. Just don't go around saying it's authentic when it's not, I guess.

Food is meant to be appropriated. Just don’t present your food as authentic when it’s not.

We wouldn’t have food like Tacos Al Pastor if it weren’t for the mingling of cultures in food.
The difference would be that literally no one thinks tacos al pastor are "authentic Lebanese cuisine" or whatever. It's very openly fusion cuisine :P
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,400
The difference would be that literally no one thinks tacos al pastor are "authentic Lebanese cuisine" or whatever. It's very openly fusion cuisine :P
Well this is why I take potential issue with the word authentic. However, I can't judge before learning whether or not the dishes truly are authentic in nature.
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,275
JP
Well this is why I take potential issue with the word authentic. However, I can't judge before learning whether or not the dishes truly are authentic in nature.
I do think there's value in preserving the authentic nature of regional food. Food is culture, after all. There should be options - delicious fusion bulgogi tacos, gringo ass "Doritos with ground beef tacos", and actual Mexican tacos that Mexican people eat in Mexico. IMHO.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,400
I do think there's value in preserving the authentic nature of regional food. Food is culture, after all. There should be options - delicious fusion bulgogi tacos, gringo ass "Doritos with ground beef tacos", and actual Mexican tacos that Mexican people eat in Mexico. IMHO.
Absolutely. But if Gordon Ramsay is going to call this food authentic it better well be authentic. I don't think we know enough of the menu and chefs employed to pass judgement yet.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,312
Yes. I wish I had mod powers I could inject a post right after the OP in big block letters to say something like THE ISSUE AT STAKE IS WHO STANDS TO BENEFIT FINANCIALLY. THIS TOPIC HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE VALIDITY OF, SAY, WHITE HOME-COOKS MAKING TOM YUM OR TONKATSU
If they make good food and I enjoy it, they deserve my money.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,469
Washington
I don’t understand. Isn’t food meant to be eaten and shared? What’s wrong with people cooking the food they like to eat?

Honestly, what’s wrong with this?
We had a restaurant over here with a Japanese chef and owner who cooked mostly European fare. He was resentful that people expected he had to make Japanese food just cause he was Japanese (he also named it “The Grumpy Chef”). He wanted to branch out to other fare.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,521
There was a big to-do a few years ago, about a Mexican taco-cart in Portland. It was owned by two non-Hispanic women, who loved tasty Mexican tacos & burritos. Pretty sure it ended up being shut down over appropriation claims.
That was such bullshit too. I'm surprised the same people didn't try to shut down Mi Mero Mole since it's owned by a white dude. Of course he's the only one in town truly doing D.F. style guisados in town pretty much.. well there's a few places that do them.. but not in the way or extent MMM does.

They went after that cart because the girls went to Mexico to find out how they made tortillas. So they were stealing from them.. which is bullshit as pretty much every cuisine is stealing from someone. Someone taught someone else how to make everything.. people didn't all magically come up with making tortillas on their own.. someone showed them how.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,229
You know I was kidding, right?

But the idea of food appropriation is silly. What should be debated and criticized is the use of the word "authentic".
I don't think you can argue that without getting into the weeds about cultural appropriation, though.

I used to think my mom's cooking was just "Cuban", until I tried food in Spain and some of it seemed remarkably similar. Seems obvious in hindsight, my grandfather emigrated from Spain.
Then I tried food from Morocco and Egypt and found familiar stuff again, and understanding the history of these countries explains how these things might have moved around and mixed.

I don't think anybody in this thread has argued that food doesn't or can't move around between cultures. The question is, who owns it? And like a lot of other cultural products, the concept of 'ownership' seems to be most dismissed by people who don't have anything to lose.

Food is culture, and white men like Gordon Ramsay truly have nothing to lose. So when they take an ethnic minority's food, put it in a restaurant and insist that they procured it in all it's authenticity (but 3x the price), it's like an artifact they 'found' and put in a museum (even the description of this restaurant's decor sounds like they went for 'historical artifact') , and they are the ones telling its story and curating this experience as "the authentic one". That IS appropriation.
 
Nov 21, 2017
557
Dublin, Ireland
Food is culture, and white men like Gordon Ramsay truly have nothing to lose. So when they take an ethnic minority's food, put it in a restaurant and insist that they procured it in all it's authenticity (but 3x the price), it's like an artifact they 'found' and put in a museum, and they are the ones telling its story and curating this experience as "the authentic one". That IS appropriation.
Thank you for finding the words I could not.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,646
Longwood, FL
Cultural Appropriation is a real concept, it’s just that many claims of it are quite often incorrect and misguided, as is the case here.

Food doesn’t belong to any single culture. Same goes for music, clothes, and hair styles.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,406
User Banned (3 Days) Inflammatory Drive-by
I saw an asian once eating a communion wafer and I slapped it out of his hand and said it belonged to me
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,229
I saw an asian once eating a communion wafer and I slapped it out of his hand and said it belonged to me
Pretty bad example considering the Catholic Church has literally massacred people in other countries to make them eat the wafer.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,312
Thank you for finding the words I could not.
You also wanted to say something as stupid as "They have nothing to lose."? Gordon Ramsey has nothing to lose? Seriously?! His reputation is on the line every single damn time he does something. If he claims "authentic" and it isn't authentic, he's going to get rightfully torched and his reputation will suffer for it.
 
Oct 26, 2017
929
I saw an asian once eating a communion wafer and I slapped it out of his hand and said it belonged to me
These garbage drive by posts keep coming.

The problem is not that it's one person cooking from a culture that's not their own. It's more than that surface level observation but we still get absolutely brilliant posts like this. All it takes is reading the thread but why do that when you can just get your one liner off and go about your day?
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,749
Canada
Cultural Appropriation is a real concept, it’s just that many claims of it are quite often incorrect and misguided, as is the case here.

Food doesn’t belong to any single culture. Same goes for music, clothes, and hair styles.
It does when you (the general you) constantly shit on the people of those cultures who create those things when they use those things.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,587
I don't think you can argue that without getting into the weeds about cultural appropriation, though.

I used to think my mom's cooking was just "Cuban", until I tried food in Spain and some of it seemed remarkably similar. Seems obvious in hindsight, my grandfather emigrated from Spain.
Then I tried food from Morocco and Egypt and found familiar stuff again, and understanding the history of these countries explains how these things might have moved around and mixed.

I don't think anybody in this thread has argued that food doesn't or can't move around between cultures. The question is, who owns it? And like a lot of other cultural products, the concept of 'ownership' seems to be most dismissed by people who don't have anything to lose.

Food is culture, and white men like Gordon Ramsay truly have nothing to lose. So when they take an ethnic minority's food, put it in a restaurant and insist that they procured it in all it's authenticity (but 3x the price), it's like an artifact they 'found' and put in a museum (even the description of this restaurant's decor sounds like they went for 'historical artifact') , and they are the ones telling its story and curating this experience as "the authentic one". That IS appropriation.
You clearly don't understand what the word authentic means in the culinary world and are assigning weight and value to it that most do not. It has nothing to do with race. It strictly refers to recipes/ingredients/flavors/techniques.

I would never refer to my Pad Kra Gao as authentic because it's not prepared in the traditional manner. If it was, I'd sure as shit promote it as an authentic recipe because it would be.

Regardless, let's consider this logically by asking questions.

1. Is Gordon Ramsay allowed to serve the cuisines of non white cultures? If the answer is no, I'll just blow out of this conversation entirely because I believe that to be a ridiculous position to take and no reasonable person would agree.

2. Assuming the answer is yes, can he not promote the food as retaining the authenticity of it's traditional recipes, ingredients and flavors? If not, and you answered yes to no. 1, then you're saying he may only serve the cuisines of other cultures if he does not produce it with authenticity? In food, that means his recipes/flavors/ingredients are not true to the original cuisine.

Do you see how ridiculous that is?
 
Oct 30, 2017
61
you wont even be able to eat food thats not part of your "culture" .... i mean the way the fake outrage train is heading we will probably be there real soon
 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,202
Topic is more nuanced than most of you seem to be willing to admit and instead are content with "fuck you food is food". Oh if only it was so simple
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,508
Surely the only way you'd be able to "appropriate" food is with fusion restaurants?

I can't anymore with this outrage culture. It's too much
If it doesn't effect you in any meaningful way, then why post about it? I make Asian style lunches for my kid almost every fucking day and my kid would sometimes not eat it because white kids would talk shit about it. These are the same type of kids that are adults today that seek out "authenticity" because now it's hip. So yeah, I'd say the Asians and allies have a right to be pissed.

The only "outrage culture" expressing itself in this thread is posts like yours.

You clearly don't understand what the word authentic means in the culinary world and are assigning weight and value to it that most do not. It has nothing to do with race. It strictly refers to recipes/ingredients/flavors/techniques.

I would never refer to my Pad Kra Gao as authentic because it's not prepared in the traditional manner. If it was, I'd sure as shit promote it as an authentic recipe because it would be.

Regardless, let's consider this logically by asking questions.

1. Is Gordon Ramsay allowed to serve the cuisines of non white cultures? If the answer is no, I'll just blow out of this conversation entirely because I believe that to be a ridiculous position to take and no reasonable person would agree.

2. Assuming the answer is yes, can he not promote the food as retaining the authenticity of it's traditional recipes, ingredients and flavors? If not, and you answered yes to no. 1, then you're saying he may only serve the cuisines of other cultures if he does not produce it with authenticity? In food, that means his recipes/flavors/ingredients are not true to the original cuisine.

Do you see how ridiculous that is?
Do you see how ridiculous it is for him to be allowed to shape the narrative of my culture and ethnicity when he literally has no skin in the game? If this venture goes bust, he'll still be THE Gordon Ramsey with world renowned restaurants, lucrative TV contracts, and a huge bank account.

This asshole isn't just promoting food, he's promoting an experience wrapped in the trappings of colonialism, or does the theme and decor of the restaurant somehow exist in another dimension that we can't see?
 
Jan 10, 2018
2,741
I always find it funny when people mock Fox News watchers or Trump loyalists for being so stupid and than threads like this one happens

you wont even be able to eat food thats not part of your "culture" .... i mean the way the fake outrage train is heading we will probably be there real soon
Finally someone telling like it is.
Topic is more nuanced than most of you seem to be willing to admit and instead are content with "fuck you food is food". Oh if only it was so simple
 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,202
I always find it funny when people mock Fox News watchers or Trump loyalists for being so stupid and than threads like this one happens



Finally someone telling like it is.

Who's more outraged, the few tweeters or the woker than woke people issuing hostile dismissals to people even entertaining the thought that this might go further than 'food is just food'?
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,622
NJ
How it's being marketed is EXACTLY what's being debated, but people are more interested in drive by posting about defending a rich white guy cooking whatever he wants as if this exists in a fucking vacuum or he's just doing it at home.
I'm just saying the word "authentic" is thrown around and misused a lot. It's a buzzword like "fresh" or "iconic" that has lost its true meaning and context.

I don't take issue with Gordon Ramsay opening an Asian restaurant. He has every right to. To call it "authentic" is questionable. What does that mean exactly? I wouldn't necessarily call it appropriation, just poor use of words in order to create a false perception.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,587
If it doesn't effect you in any meaningful way, then why post about it? I make Asian style lunches for my kid almost every fucking day and my kid would sometimes not eat it because white kids would talk shit about it. These are the same type of kids that are adults today that seek out "authenticity" because now it's hip. So yeah, I'd say the Asians and allies have a right to be pissed.

The only "outrage culture" expressing itself in this thread is posts like yours.


Do you see how ridiculous it is for him to be allowed to shape the narrative of my culture and ethnicity when he literally has no skin in the game? If this venture goes bust, he'll still be THE Gordon Ramsey with world renowned restaurants, lucrative TV contracts, and a huge bank account.

This asshole isn't just promoting food, he's promoting an experience wrapped in the trappings of colonialism, or does the theme and decor of the restaurant somehow exist in another dimension that we can't see?
Now that is completely fair. Experience, theme and decor absolutely play a roll, and the description involved does raise an eyebrow going back and reading it. My argument was strictly in regards to food and use of the word authentic.
 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,202
Calling it authentic is exactly what people are questioning about. A white dude opening an Asian restaurant is not the issue. But people don't really give a fuck except to say "Fuck you stay quiet I do what I want", which has nothing to do with anything.

I'm gonna put it to you lot another way. If Ramsay opens a new Cajun restaurant and talks about it as some grand gesture of bringing authentic black culture to the world as if all black people are a monolith, while making mad profit off this because white people trust him, would there be cause for questioning?
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,031
Remember the original Japanese Iron Chef series ...this was Iron Chef Italian


And here's a Oklahoma guy who is widely considered the face of authentic mexican food


This is a stupid debate - its probably just a reverse PR move to get word of his restaurant out anyway.


Edit---my pics! are GONE lol
Edit - THEY ARE BACK!
 
Oct 25, 2017
589
Now that is completely fair. Experience, theme and decor absolutely play a roll, and the description involved does raise an eyebrow going back and reading it. My argument was strictly in regards to food and use of the word authentic.
I personally only take issue with the word insofar as wrapping it up with the word “Asian.” A lot of us are side-eyeing it because it seems oxymoronic. By lumping in hundreds of cultures under one umbrella and marketing it as such, how authentic and respectful are you really being? Of all chefs, Gordon fucking Ramsey need to resort to such banal marketing tricks?

What’s really upsetting here, besides all these posters with their “arrest me I’m not Italian and made spaghetti” takes, is that Gordon chose some white self-proclaimed “tofu freak” as the person to lead their menu. There are no shortage of Asian chefs. This is a question of what is being taken advantage of to profit, and precisely who is kept from profiting.
 
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Nov 27, 2017
514
I don't get the criticism regarding him calling it "authentic". If two chefs make the same meal in exactly the same way is one dish more "authentic" because the chef is from the country the dish originated from? Would the customer be able to taste the difference? No.

Authentic just means it's not a western spin on the dish - meaning they are making it "classically".
 
Jan 10, 2018
2,741
Who's more outraged, the few tweeters or the woker than woke people issuing hostile dismissals to people even entertaining the thought that this might go further than 'food is just food'?
Homer is watching Fox News. People here are reacting to a badly summarized Fox News article. Very similiar results.

Aka I don't really disagree with you and my "finally someone telling like it is" was very on the nose trolling.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,362
I don't get the criticism regarding him calling it "authentic". If two chefs make the same meal in exactly the same way is one dish more "authentic" because the chef is from the country the dish originated from? Would the customer be able to taste the difference? No.

Authentic just means it's not a western spin on the dish - meaning they are making it "classically".
"Authentic" in food is commonly understood as marketing (i.e., a meaningless term) except when it's better to toss aside the common understanding and use it as fodder for argument.

The number of restaurants in a two mile radius of me claiming to be authentic, "real", or any synonym or synonymous phrase suggesting authenticity anything is high.
 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,202
Homer is watching Fox News. People here are reacting to a badly summarized Fox News article. Very similiar results.

Aka I don't really disagree with you and my "finally someone telling like it is" was very on the nose trolling.
Ah I see. I couldn't tell at all haha
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,157
I personally only take issue with the word insofar as wrapping it up with the word “Asian.” A lot of us are side-eyeing it because it seems oxymoronic. By lumping in hundreds of cultures under one umbrella and marketing it as such, how authentic and respectful are you really being? Of all chefs, Gordon fucking Ramsey need to resort to such banal marketing tricks?

What’s really upsetting here, besides all these posters with their “arrest me I’m not Italian and made spaghetti” takes, is that Gordon chose some white self-proclaimed “tofu freak” as the person to lead their menu. There are no shortage of Asian chefs. This is a question of what is being taken advantage of to profit, and precisely who is kept from profiting.
What's the assumption then? That it's likely he overlooked other chefs of asian descent and went for this guy instead because he's white? This is a genuine question as I try to understand this.
 
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