GOTY 2018 Wrap-Up & Future Planning

Unknownlight

Member
Nov 2, 2017
4,521
No disagreement, but we probably should say what the overall GOTY is. Just make it console GOTY or something. Then if we wanted we could have a PC GOTY and even a mobile GOTY (or handheld if that came back).
Isn't this what the categories are for? We already have a "Best PC game" category, and the proposal in the OP should help prevent bad PC ports from being counted.
 

Aeana

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,681
I disagree with this.

Not a fan of counting remasters or ports. Even remakes are pushing it. But if people disagree that's fine by me!
What does it hurt? If enough people feel strongly about it for it to count, then it should count. And if they don't, then they won't vote for it, and it won't chart.
 

Wowfunhappy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,935
Going forward, we'd like to either clarify the rules regarding what is considered a remake/remaster and what isn't. Resident Evil 2, for instance, is a substantial overhaul from the original and thus should be eligible for GOTY. This was the case with Pokemon Let’s Go. Shadow of the Colossus, however, was simply a graphical upgrade, and in theory should not be eligible. That said, we could always have a “Best Remake” category. Simply put, if a game remake/remaster is MORE than just a graphics overhaul, then it would be eligible for GOTY.
Unfortunately, I don't think this is going to resolve the confusion.

Would Wind Waker HD have been eligible? It was primarily a graphics overhaul, but it also greatly reduced the TriForce Quest, which was a big deal for a lot of people! What about when a game adds levels or stages? How much content has to be new?

I actually think we should go the other direction from what other posters are suggesting: If a game could be considered a remake in any capacity, it should just be out of the main running. If that means some great games are left out, so be it—there are plenty of others who deserve a GOTY shot.
 

Nocturnowl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,296
While personally I don't tend to vote for remasters and late ports, I don't see that problem with people voting for them.
Can't imagine too many would gain enough momentum to really impact things, and if they did then well, it must be worth the voting!
 

Fitts

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,264
Port from past years =/= eligible. I don’t know why it needs to be any more complicated than that. I’m looking forward to the Switch release of Final Fantasy XII and they added a bunch of stuff from the PS2 release, but it’s still the same game at its core. I’m ok with not voting for it. At the same time, Shadow of the Colossus 2018 isn’t a port and, therefore, should be eligible. It doesn’t matter if it was a straightforward remake or a reimagining like REmake 2. It’s a game that was built from the ground up for that year. (and it clearly was changed enough to elicit opinions as I vastly prefer the 2005 version)

I have no interest in voting on individual categories.

This past year was the first time in a long time I didn’t bother voting. That was partly due to it being a weak year so I lacked motivation, but when I did finally get around to voting my GOTY it wasn’t on the eligibility list. (Crying is Not Enough — awful game in the conventional sense sure, but there’s no disputing the amount of joy it has brought the world) After reading that you needed to submit for eligibility, I said fuck it. Not sure if anything can be done about that or if I just misunderstood the process.
 

Unknownlight

Member
Nov 2, 2017
4,521
I actually think we should go the other direction from what other posters are suggesting: If a game could be considered a remake in any capacity, it should just be out of the main running. If that means some great games are left out, so be it—there are plenty of others who deserve a GOTY shot.
If you were around the endless stupid arguments about if Smash Ultimate was a port, you'd know what a terrible idea this is.
 

Viceratops

Member
Jun 29, 2018
1,859
Let's just nip this in the bud. We're aware that there were issues with how some games were categorized in the 2018 GOTY thread. That's literally the point of this thread - we're trying to fix it going forward. Let's not derail this thread with how "X was robbed" in 2018. The goal is to make sure that doesn't happen in the future.
That still doesn’t answer why you changed your mind retroactively about allowing it in the goty votes. Don’t hide behind “let’s move forward!” Just say why that specific game was not allowed to compete even though it met the original criteria. It’s not that hard.

I don’t care what you do, just make sure RE2 is eligible for goty.
 

Hecht

Ain't nothing but marking time
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
4,693
That still doesn’t answer why you changed your mind retroactively about allowing it in the goty votes. Don’t hide behind “let’s move forward!” Just say why that specific game was not allowed to compete even though it met the original criteria. It’s not that hard.

I don’t care what you do, just make sure RE2 is eligible for goty.
"We're aware that there were issues with how some games were categorized in the 2018 GOTY thread." That is me saying that we made mistakes, Yakuza being one of them. I don't know what else you want from me. We're trying to make it so that this coming one is better and doesn't run into the same issues.
 

Wowfunhappy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,935
If you were around the endless stupid arguments about if Smash Ultimate was a port, you'd know what a terrible idea this is.
This is fair.

I basically think we should rely on the publisher/developer here. Smash Ultimate isn't a remake because it's not billed as a remake. Resident Evil, by contrast, has been pretty clearly presented as an update to an old game.

Is this perfect? No, but it is a clear guideline I think we can all understand.
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,417
Chesire, UK
Category Nomination round
  • Nominate up to three games for each category
  • Nominations are un-ordered (order does not matter, each nomination is one point)
Normal round
  • Top 5 from each category are eligible for voting for that category in the final round (choose one)
  • Standard GOTY vote like previous years
We believe this will allow for more accurate categories
Un-ordered nominations promotes games which have broad but shallow appeal over passionate but niche picks. This system is guaranteed to produce the blandest possible lists for each category.

5 people thinking Obra Dinn is the best puzzle game of the year should have more value than 10 people thinking Tetris Effect was the 3rd best

Give nominations 5 / 3 /1 points and it works better.


Remake/Remasters Eligibility
Going forward, we'd like to either clarify the rules regarding what is considered a remake/remaster and what isn't. Resident Evil 2, for instance, is a substantial overhaul from the original and thus should be eligible for GOTY. This was the case with Pokemon Let’s Go. Shadow of the Colossus, however, was simply a graphical upgrade, and in theory should not be eligible. That said, we could always have a “Best Remake” category. Simply put, if a game remake/remaster is MORE than just a graphics overhaul, then it would be eligible for GOTY.

The alternate approach could be that, if voters feel that the category system ensures remakes/remasters will not overwhelm the system, that such games are eligible for GOTY and categories. Another alternative could be that the games are eligible for GOTY and not categories or even categories and not GOTY. There's a variety of different options and approaches we could take, and it largely depends on what you all want.
Everything released in the calendar year anywhere in the world for any system should be eligible. Don't leave it up to arbitrary criteria, criteria which can easily be gamed.

The staff might think the Resident Evil 2 remake deserves more recognition than the Shadow of the Colossus remaster, but if we're just going off what the staff thinks then why bother having a vote at all?
 

Papercuts

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,343
Why does there need to be so much lawyering about whether something is enough of an upgrade to count or not? Why can't something that released in the given period be eligible, period?
this is how I feel.

Games are weird. Edge cases are basically always going to exist, and I figure it’s easier to just let everyone vote for it if they want.

I can already say for this year, Tales of Vesperia is probably going to be a weird one. Technically a remaster, with new content we never saw outside of Japan, and the game is 10 years old. If someone plays this for the first time, it could very well be an outright game of the year and not just a category topper of best remaster.

I personally don’t have much interest in splitting an overall list into different categories either. Then we got more arbitrary things like genre blends and what does or doesn’t count as an adventure game or RPG.
 

Rush_Khan

Member
Oct 26, 2017
530
Can you make the voting software open-source so people can contribute to it? It will make it a lot easier to get improvements for it.

For example, one thing I miss from the old forum is the Affinity data - who voted similarly to me and what they voted for. I found this really useful because it allowed me to identify games that I missed out on but people with similar tastes to me enjoyed.
 

Viceratops

Member
Jun 29, 2018
1,859
"We're aware that there were issues with how some games were categorized in the 2018 GOTY thread." That is me saying that we made mistakes, Yakuza being one of them. I don't know what else you want from me. We're trying to make it so that this coming one is better and doesn't run into the same issues.
So a clerical error? Deliberately leaving it off? Which is it?

I just want to know what the specific error was. Then I’ll leave it alone.
 

Wowfunhappy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,935
Everything released in the calendar year anywhere in the world for any system should be eligible. Don't leave it up to arbitrary criteria, criteria which can easily be gamed.
So will Splatoon 2 be eligible for GotY in 2019 because the developers added one weapon? Could Splatoon 2 win every year by that same logic?

We need to have some type of guideline or it's not a meaningful "of THE YEAR" award.
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,417
Chesire, UK
  • Most "Badass" Game
  • Cutest Game
  • Craziest Game
  • Best Guilty Pleasure Game
Forgot this from my first post, but could we maybe not?

Especially the bolded.

So will Splatoon 2 be eligible for GotY in 2019 because the developers added one weapon? Could Splatoon 2 win every year by that same logic?

We need to have some type of guideline or it's not a meaningful "of THE YEAR" award.
If we had a category for "weapon of the year", sure?

I agree we need a guideline, and it should be: Was this game released this year.

Stellaris came out for consoles this year, for example. It's a vastly inferior product to the current PC version, and yet it could still easily be one of the best 10 games released this year.

Rules lawyering it out of eligibility just seems pointless and, I dunno, petty?
 

Teeth

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,361
While next to impossible, I would take literally anything that would ensure people have at least played the games they are voting for.

I think even just having it be a "top 5" list instead of a "top 10" would help alleviate this. So much of this is the "best marketing" awards.
EDIT: it's all kind of stupid anyway, since people are self selecting with what they buy/play anyway, unlike a media site.
 

Unknownlight

Member
Nov 2, 2017
4,521
So will Splatoon 2 be eligible for GotY in 2019 because the developers added one weapon? Could Splatoon 2 win every year by that same logic?

We need to have some type of guideline or it's not a meaningful "of THE YEAR" award.
"New retail release", either physically or on an online store. For example, if Splatoon 2 got a new release on the eShop combining the base game and the Octo Expansion, that would count as a new release.

That's the only consistent system I can think of.
 

MoonFrog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,743
Going to beat a dead horse: leave any issue of “not really a game if this year” to the community, if there is any basis for it being a game of the year (and honestly even if there wasn’t :p) It’ll vote the way it sees things wrt this as well as quality.
 

emag

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,360
So will Splatoon 2 be eligible for GotY in 2019 because the developers added one weapon? Could Splatoon 2 win every year by that same logic?

We need to have some type of guideline or it's not a meaningful "of THE YEAR" award.
That’s the proposal, yes. The idea is that relatively few people would vote for it, though, as most players wouldn’t feel that it was “of the year”. The burden of determining eligibility is shifted to individual voters instead of being a consistent, well-defined policy.

(RE4, GotY 2005-2019+.)
 

Wookieomg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
380
Oklahoma
Why does there need to be so much lawyering about whether something is enough of an upgrade to count or not? Why can't something that released in the given period be eligible, period?
In concept I agree with the categories but I think adding another round of voting will drive participation down. Getting participation up should be the #1 priority by streamlining the voting process and allowing the thread to be a showcase and place of discussion (as you've outlined). As it is now I think a lot of users enter the thread, see a wall of text and rules about formatting, and just say F it.

I didn't look this year, did we get the metrics back that showed which other members voted like you? That was always the best part.
In short: I think all remasters/remakes should be eligible and the community will just decide organically based on trends in the voting.
I would much rather have a "if it came out somewhere this year it's eligible" system where if someone wants to vote for Famicom Fire Emblem 1 because it came to Switch online, let them, then to have some weird judgement system where an unknown group arbitrates over if something is "new" enough
My only thing is I think the "require everyone to write a throwaway sentence for a vote to count" is ridiculous.

The entire point here is to get the aggregate GOTY from ResetEra members. Not just ResetEra members who want to write a little paragraph. It's silly. The data is all that matters.
I agree with all of the above. Driving up participation is the most important thing here imho, and simplifying the voting process goes hand in hand with that. If it's through a form, or through not requiring hyper precise syntax to qualify your results, or requiring the user to justify/defend/explain their votes, do it. All preferably. Allow for flourishes and explanations and fancy graphics/images if the user wants, but don't require it.
 

Rotobit

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,558
I'm in the camp that all games released in the year should be eligible too; the way the votes shake out in the end will probably highlight that only the more extensive remakes/remasters (Resi Evil 2, SOTC etc.) would win out, and still be outnumbered by new games. Unless a year rolls around where the vast majority of games are remasters, I think it's fine.

As for the other points:
  1. Vote Counting - Encourage posters to take a look at the lists above theirs, and if they don't line up with the automated guidelines, have them reply. I'm sure this happened naturally last time but throwing in a sentence or two suggesting that sort of camaraderie would be nice.
  2. Categories - I'd be fine with getting rid of genres entirely, they're such a mess these days. The other categories are fine and cute and encourage more lively discussion than people whining about such-and-such being an ARPG or a hack and slash or an open world adventure.
 

MoonFrog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,743
Well, the culture around the GotY doesn’t seem very robust wrt being a recommendations thread. That said, I think it would be better if there were such a culture and writing up your games fosters that.

IDK. Our essential RPGs thread does have something of a recommendation and discussion character but that does get buried in result oriented discussion even so quite often.

There’s also the thing that people might lurk and read and find games but never discuss to consider, of course.
 

FiveSide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,739
Back at my computer so wanted to add a second thought:

I think the categories, while interesting, should be eliminated. And on a related note I think that the requirement to write a sentence justifying picks should be eliminated as well. It makes more sense in other voting threads that might be more about finding recommendations and ranking things for fun/discussion, but personally I do view the main Era GOTY thread as one that's primarily about data and about getting an accurate representation of what this community as a whole thinks, not just what the members with the most time to write stuff out think. I did write fairly lengthy write-ups for 2018 but that was only because I wanted to, and I think that fundamentally there shouldn't be an expectation nor an obligation to write anything at all.

And this ties back into the categories which are also another wrinkle of complexity that can potentially obstruct people from voting who would've voted otherwise had they not felt obligated to do more than the bare minimum of just listing out their choices for GOTY. In most cases you'd want to avoid the bare minimum but, in this particular case, I think the brunt of the discussion is in the results thread and not in the voting thread. The voting thread here should be a glorified data sheet that makes it as convenient as possible for every single person to pop in and hash out their choices in like 5 seconds. Anything that interferes with that baseline minimum, whether the category votes or the sentence/paragraph requirement (while both well-meaning) should be axed.

So to summarize:

1. Remakes and remasters should be eligible and rely purely on community support to determine whether or not they make the list.
2. The categories should be eliminated because they add unnecessary complexity to a process that should necessarily be simple and inclusive of all voters regardless of how much time and effort they can put into it.
3. The minimum justification requirement should be eliminated for similar reasons.
 

CampFreddie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,021
I would much rather have a "if it came out somewhere this year it's eligible" system where if someone wants to vote for Famicom Fire Emblem 1 because it came to Switch online, let them, then to have some weird judgement system where an unknown group arbitrates over if something is "new" enough
This. I don't see a problem with people voting for some ancient Xbox game because it was released as an XB1 backwards compatible title or whatever. Those people are going to be in the minority and if we really get a chart flooded with remasters then that's a pretty damning inditement of modern games.

God of War isn't going to lose to Shadows of the Colossus, regardless of which votes are counted.

A best remaster category is a good addition though.
 

Matthew77

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
3,006
Massachusetts
All I have to add and hope this gets seen since I already see one of these suggestions. No having to put what your platform is. Sounds like gatekeepy or “exclusives get weighted higher” bullshit. Do you want to discourage votes from people who for whatever reason can only have one platform. Or justify an exclusive with “ but I also play/own” this. No one needs those metrics except for console wars which last I checked this community is against.

Same as the people who suggest every year you should only be able to vote if you have ten. Without getting into both the disposable income dynamics or arguments about how many games you have to play for an opinion (more gamer cred bullshit) don’t overlook the fact that a lot of people, including both high quality posters and people it’s obvious game more than most with variety don’t feel like ten games deserve that. I know the most I have ever had on a list was Six.

Im sure there are people who disagree but if your trying to drive up engagement please don’t listen to people who suggest things like the two above, they are gatekeepy and will drive participation down even further.
 

Muzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,397
So a clerical error? Deliberately leaving it off? Which is it?

I just want to know what the specific error was. Then I’ll leave it alone.
There was no error, it was clearly stated in the OP of the GOTY thread that you could vote for remasters but they only show up in the remaster award and not eligible for any other awards.

There was even an entire section on the spreadsheet of eligible games that separated remasters into their own list.

Perhaps remasters should be eligible for main awards. We can debate that in this thread. But there’s no point in going back and forth on whether Yakuza was “robbed” or not; in the 2018 rules it was not eligible for the main awards, and we are looking to change rules like that for 2019’s vote.
 

Imran

Member
Oct 24, 2017
2,802
As a hypothetical, if people wanted a repeat of last year where a game has to be new enough to be judged as a new title, who makes that determination? Can it be me? Can I take bribes?
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,875
How about any new release in a calendar year is eligible for awards of that calendar year? Why overcomplicate something so simple?
 

Rush_Khan

Member
Oct 26, 2017
530
1. Begin by sanitizing input. Convert all input to lower case. Remove definite and indefinite articles. Remove stopwords. Remove all non-alphanumeric input except spaces. Standardize the use of numbers and roman numerals. Remove spaces. You now have a canonical form. This has solve all of the issues you raised above except typoes.

2. Create a matrix of distance between all canonical forms. This can be edit distance, levenshtein, whatever. You probably don't want soundex because you are dealing with a multi-language dataset of words that aren't words. Remove the diagonal of the matrix (all items have a 0 edit distance from themselves). The remaining minimum cellwise edit distances are probably typoes. If your measure is edit distance you can truncate to distances below 2/3 character edits. If it is a percentage difference then truncate to some minimum percentage.

3. Optionally use a human to resolve these cases, or if you want to use data, assume that the canonical form that is more popular is authoritatively true. Replace the incorrect canonical form with the correct canonical form in current and future submissions.
See, this member is clearly skilled in language processing, but is unable to contribute to making the voting software better. Hence why I feel the software should be made open-source.
 

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
As a hypothetical, if people wanted a repeat of last year where a game has to be new enough to be judged as a new title, who makes that determination? Can it be me? Can I take bribes?
No
It's me
Bribes start at 5 million Bronson Bucks for each place in the queue I bump it up, Top 20 costs like 400
 

Muzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,397
As a hypothetical, if people wanted a repeat of last year where a game has to be new enough to be judged as a new title, who makes that determination? Can it be me? Can I take bribes?
I mean, there was a thread asking for community help and feedback for what games should be eligible. There’s even a “remaster” section of the spreadsheet, people could have contested Kiwami 2 being classified as “remaster” vs Let’s Go in the main tab in this thread.
 

Viceratops

Member
Jun 29, 2018
1,859
And why would you care for such information, outside of claiming bias or something asinine like that?
I left Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze and Shadow of the Colossus off my list even though TF would have been in my top 5 and Shadow in my top 10. I knew the port wouldn’t count for much but I had a feeling a remake like Shadow would go through some shenanigans. And I was right.

If you want your vote to matter, you should care about making sure that the thing you vote for is actually being considered and won’t have some bullshit explanation for why it doesn’t count after the voting ends.

Got any other stupid questions?
There was no error, it was clearly stated in the OP of the GOTY thread that you could vote for remasters but they only show up in the remaster award and not eligible for any other awards.

There was even an entire section on the spreadsheet of eligible games that separated remasters into their own list.

Perhaps remasters should be eligible for main awards. We can debate that in this thread. But there’s no point in going back and forth on whether Yakuza was “robbed” or not; in the 2018 rules it was not eligible for the main awards, and we are looking to change rules like that for 2019’s vote.
Okay but then we’re getting back into the loop of why Let’s Go counts and Yakuza Kiwami 2 doesn’t even though Pokémon is a remaster just like Yakuza Kiwami 2. Your logic doesn’t make sense.
 

Aters

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,948
2018 saw a huge decline in participation. Adding all these works will make sure the participant number goes down even further.

I propose only have one GotY vote and get rid of all the categories. Genre definition is a mess, and I'd rather not have it in GotY thread. Also all remakes or whatever should be eligible. I'm not up for stupid "is XXX a remaster" debate.
 

Muzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,397
Okay but then we’re getting back into the loop of why Let’s Go counts and Yakuza Kiwami 2 doesn’t even though Pokémon is a remaster just like Yakuza Kiwami 2. Your logic doesn’t make sense.
That’s already been explained to you, Let’s Go is far more than a graphical upgrade (like RE2). I liken it to a re-imagining of the original game, like Ratchet and Clank 2016. But also —>

I mean, there was a thread asking for community help and feedback for what games should be eligible. There’s even a “remaster” section of the spreadsheet, people could have contested Kiwami 2 being classified as “remaster” vs Let’s Go in the main tab in this thread.
 

Viceratops

Member
Jun 29, 2018
1,859
That’s already been explained to you, Let’s Go is far more than a graphical upgrade (like RE2). I liken it to a re-imagining of the original game, like Ratchet and Clank 2016. But also —>
So is Kiwami 2. You guys admit there’s a mistake but you won’t say what it is. Why is that? Unless you’re going to undermine what Hecht already said to me and now say there was never a mistake?
 

MoonFrog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,743
Re: Yakuza

I don’t think it matters if there is a previous thread. Nor that this thread exists. The organizers decide how it runs.
 

Muzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,397
So is Kiwami 2. You guys admit there’s a mistake but you won’t say what it is. Why is that? Unless you’re going to undermine what Hecht already said to me and now say there was never a mistake?
I’m saying that was the justification used to originally put in the remaster category, along with pointing out to you a thread before voting started where you could have aired this very concern.

I don’t know what else you want besides what Hecht already told you. What’s done is done, but we can use this thread to make sure things get straightened out before voting for 2019 starts.
 

Aters

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,948
That's why we keep the categories, and then call overall GOTY console GOTY.
Who gets to decide what category a game belongs to? Hell who gets to decide what categories we vote for? AC Odyssey being best Switch game is laughable. Horror game should not be a genre, as videogame genre is decided by gameplay mechanics, not themes. You don't have comedy or romance game, so why keep horror? Most outlets, including GDC, consider shooter a subgenre of action game. Do you want to see Battlefield win best action game? Is Zelda an RPG? Is Souls action game? Is FE an RPG or a Strategy game? P5 was best PS3 game despite only three people played it on PS3.

Like I said, it's a mess, and I don't want me, or other people, waste thought on it.
 

Batatina

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,532
Edinburgh, UK
In terms of eligibility, any game that is not a port or a HD remaster (same assets in a different resolution) should be eligible. A full graphical upgrade like Shadow of ths Colossus should have been eligible.

In terms of the system I just think this website could become a more credible source of awards if the nomination interface was slick and interesting, rather than relying on free text in a post. I think it isn’t fun to do (at least for me). You should have an interface where every videogame released is available, we can order them and submit and then have a link to copy into a format that we can then post and discuss.
 

Skux

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,418
Are Ongoing games eligible for GotY nomination?

Generally they've been excluded as they weren't released that year. But we should be able to recognise that an Ongoing game can have great releases/content/updates/expansions that year that puts it at the same level as a standalone release.
 

Aters

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,948
Also, DLCs that are not separately purchasable and playable should not be eligible.
 

rochellepaws

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,903
Ireland
1. Remakes and remasters should be eligible and rely purely on community support to determine whether or not they make the list.
2. The categories should be eliminated because they add unnecessary complexity to a process that should necessarily be simple and inclusive of all voters regardless of how much time and effort they can put into it.
3. The minimum justification requirement should be eliminated for similar reasons.
Agree with all of this. The categories idea seems a bit tacky and would just wind up with the most played games being slotted under applicable headings rather than unearthing something not already highly represented on the final list. Also, the more people participating the better so the simpler, quicker and more user friendly the process can be the better the outcome.