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Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
Those were Japanese developers. Western developers took some time to utilize the system and they really pushed it to its limits with GOW1&2.
TBH something like Soul Reaver 2 feels like a better reference, if you were wanting to stick with 2001 games. Or even something like Agent Under Fire. The problem with Max Payne was that it was an Xbox title. (Or more precisely I think it was a PC game that was competently ported to Xbox and struggled when ported to PS2.) I think 2001 was an odd year in terms of graphics, that said.
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
Those were Japanese developers. Western developers took some time to utilize the system and they really pushed it to its limits with GOW1&2.
OK then, how about Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance, Jak and Daxter, Twisted Metal Black and Soul Reaver 2? All gorgeous 60fps games that absolutely crush the PS2 version of Max Payne. Heck, in some ways, Dark Alliance is still more impressive than either God of War game on the system.

Max Payne is just a notoriously awful PS2 port. One of the worst that year. I don't even think the PC version holds up that well against the best PS2 games that year (outside of the higher resolution).
 

Beef Stallmer

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
875
TBH something like Soul Reaver 2 feels like a better reference, if you were wanting to stick with 2001 games. Or even something like Agent Under Fire. The problem with Max Payne was that it was an Xbox title. (Or more precisely I think it was a PC game that was competently ported to Xbox and struggled when ported to PS2.) I think 2001 was an odd year in terms of graphics, that said.

Not really,
Ace Combat 4, GT3, ICO, Jak and Daxter, Devil May Cry, MGS2 and SH2 were graphical benchmarks which weren't eclipsed IMO. They were improved upon in their later titles but not so much as comparing a weak 3rd party port to the best 1st party output
 

petran79

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
Greece
OK then, how about Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance, Jak and Daxter, Twisted Metal Black and Soul Reaver 2? All gorgeous 60fps games that absolutely crush the PS2 version of Max Payne. Heck, in some ways, Dark Alliance is still more impressive than either God of War game on the system.

Max Payne is just a notoriously awful PS2 port. One of the worst that year. I don't even think the PC version holds up that well against the best PS2 games that year (outside of the higher resolution).

Yes, probably. Maybe I should have posted some earlier PS2 FPS and compared it with Black.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
Not really,
Ace Combat 4, GT3, ICO, Jak and Daxter, Devil May Cry, MGS2 and SH2 were graphical benchmarks which weren't eclipsed IMO. They were improved upon in their later titles but not so much as comparing a weak 3rd party port to the best 1st party output
I have to disagree to some extent. 2001's games for the most part kinda resembled 2000 games that had gotten lost in the wash. Many 2001 games began development around 1999. There was a significant jump of graphical technology in 2002. You look at Metal Gear Solid 2 from 2001. Then you look at Splinter Cell from 2002 -- there's this revolutionary jump in lighting and shadowing complexity, even in the cut-back PS2 port which had less dynamic shadowing but tried to preserve as much dynamic lighting as was possible on the hardware.

You look at 2001 FPS games like Agent Under Fire or Return to Castle Wolfenstein, then you look at Nightfire or TimeSplitters 2. Again, another huge jump. Lighting in particular saw massive improvements. Devil May Cry 1 arguably looks like a Dreamcast game.

2001 was in this awkward halfway point visually. It was the same on PC.
 
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Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
I have to disagree to some extent. 2001's games for the most part kinda resembled 2000 games that had gotten lost in the wash. Many 2001 games began development around 1999. There was a significant jump of graphical technology in 2002. You look at Metal Gear Solid 2 from 2001. Then you look at Splinter Cell from 2002 -- there's this revolutionary jump in lighting and shadowing complexity, even in the cut-back PS2 port. You look at 2001 FPS games like Agent Under Fire or Return to Castle Wolfenstein, then you look at Nightfire or TimeSplitters 2. Again, another huge jump. Devil May Cry 1 arguably looks like a Dreamcast game.

2001 was in this awkward halfway point visually. It was the same on PC.
That's an interesting one, though.

You look at Splinter Cell and MGS2 or Metroid Prime (released alongside Splinter Cell).

MGS2 and Prime lack the more modern visual techniques and features which Splinter Cell helped pioneer but, ultimately, those games stand the test of time in a way that SC does not.

The frame-rate is 60 frames per second, the art is perfectly designed around the limitations of the hardware and they ooze polish. They simply look nicer in motion. Splinter Cell feels like a game that made a lot of sacrifices to include new visual features. I would argue that Rogue Leader, released alongside the Gamecube in 2001, is more impressive than Splinter Cell on all fronts.

The discussion around that era is interesting then as I feel the best looking games are more balanced titles which offer the perfect blend of visual complexity and performance.

What you're basically talking about is the move to programmable shaders which became common on the Xbox but I feel like many of the games which leaned heavily on these techniques have aged poorly. The best looking games on Xbox tend to dial back these types of techniques, I think. Ninja Gaiden lacks many of the features you see in Splinter Cell but is the more impressive game to behold.
 

Presskohle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
894
Germany
I've played the Ezio Collection lately and the visual progress between AC2 and Revelations is unexpectedly big.

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Celine

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,030

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
MGS2 and Prime lack the more modern visual techniques and features which Splinter Cell helped pioneer but, ultimately, those games stand the test of time in a way that SC does not. I would argue that Rogue Leader, released alongside the Gamecube in 2001, is more impressive than Splinter Cell on all fronts.
That... is true, I would agree. SC1 was a very bleeding edge game focused on a very specific tech ambition that is kind of ugly if you take a step back. I would say, however, that Chaos Theory and Double Agent on Xbox and even PS2 hold up very well today. (Chaos Theory on PC is even better.) I recently replayed DA on PS2, and thought it was a visually beautiful game at times.


But that's a separate issue because they're 2005/2006 games. They're the product of several years of technological refinement. And they are 30fps.

The frame-rate is 60 frames per second, the art is perfectly designed around the limitations of the hardware and they ooze polish. They simply look nicer in motion. Splinter Cell feels like a game that made a lot of sacrifices to include new visual features.

The discussion around that era is interesting then as I feel the best looking games are more balanced titles which offer the perfect blend of visual complexity and performance.
I feel this is a very interesting point. Console games in the 6th generation that targeted 60fps are very interesting. Beyond Good & Evil, for example, was a very pretty game with remarkably clever reflective water that targeted 60fps. All the TimeSplitters games targeted 60fps. (It was apparently a kneejerk response to disagreements during Perfect Dark's development.) I don't know its actual framerate, but I know 007: Nightfire targets 60fps, and it is a very nice looking game. And of course everyone knows about Rogue Squadron and Metroid Prime. It would actually be nice to know how many 6th generation games were 60fps or at least tried to be 60fps. Because almost nobody records those old consoles at 60fps, it's not easy to check without grabbing some real hardware and recording some video.

Games running at 60fps didn't get the appreciation it deserved back in the day. Performance matters. And it drives developers to developer better tech. Not just fancier tech that's fancy for the sake of being fancy. Fundamentally better tech.
What you're basically talking about is the move to programmable shaders which became common on the Xbox but I feel like many of the games which leaned heavily on these techniques have aged poorly. The best looking games on Xbox tend to dial back these types of techniques, I think. Ninja Gaiden lacks many of the features you see in Splinter Cell but is the more impressive game to behold.
I'm of two minds about that. I think games like Chaos Theory hold up beautifully, as I said. However, I think it's true that many Xbox and overambitious PS2 games jumped the gun visually and tried to cram in visual effects at the cost of overall visual cohesion. Looking at the big picture, yea, many of those shader-heavy games aged poorly because they were so tech focused. (Matrix: Path of Neo comes to mind, oddly.) And this wasn't actually unique to those platforms. One of the most glaring examples of this problem is Perfect Dark: Zero for Xbox 360. Perfect Dark: Zero is kinda like Splinter Cell 1. It's a crazy ambitious game from a tech perspective. But it runs like a dog and its so incredibly ugly. (Not to mention the gameplay is such a step back from its predecessor.)

I look at these two screenshots. They're both Xbox 360 games. One from PD: Zero from 2005. One from PD XBLA from 2010. The 2005 game is so far ahead of the 2010 game when it comes to graphical tech. But the 2010 game runs at 60fps, and holds up very well visually all these years later. Nice texture work and a rather clever "fake" dynamic lighting model that allows for lights to be shot out.

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Celine

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,030
DKC really used very well the SNES hardware and the the full use of CGI graphics make it standout from everything released before it.
However even later games with hand drawn pixel graphics hugely improved from Super Mario World.
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Bonus: the unreleased Dream Land of Giants
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Mona-chan

Member
Oct 31, 2017
583
Id be hard pressed to find anything on the market that looked more impressive in terms of technical features as Perfect Dark Zero. For instance, Dat POM.
Its a shame however that its mechanics are so damn clunky, literally throwing me back to the N64 days.


This man right here. I bought the X360 port of AW just for the sake of having a DX11 title run on last-gen hardware. Sure it looks terrible compared to PS4/XBO (Which also should give you an idea on how much those ''underpowered consoles'' improved upon the gen before it) but COD: AW on PS360 certainly isnt any worse visually than the other COD's. Its sufficient.

Now, BLOPS 3 though... It look okayish, but the fact it has to run at 30 fps stinks.
Call of Duty: Black Ops III doesn't run at 30 on PS3 and 360. Unlocked framerate, actually.

But that only scratches the surface of how cut-down the ports truly are.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
Factor 5 were an amazing company, and it is shocking that they were simply allowed to die, and that their incredibly talented members seemingly retired from game development in the wake of their collapse. Such a shameful, shameful waste. They were some of the most talented people in the industry and gaming is so much poorer for their loss.

There's a very nice interview with Julian Eggebrecht from 2001/2002 about the creation of Rogue Squadron for N64. http://pixelatron.com/blog/the-making-of-star-wars-rogue-squadron-factor-5/

Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine for N64 was badly rushed and pretty buggy due to Lucasarts meddling, but it's a remarkable tech accomplishment that builds upon their work on Rogue Squadron and Battle for Naboo. It feels like the always got they short end of the stick as a company.
 
Someone hasn't played EX Troopers
It runs the same engine as Revelations, although instead of MT Mobile, it says MT Lite on the box.

Atleast those digitized actors werent in Mario ;)
Also Donkey Kong's visuals are mostly the result of them being pre-rendered by SGI workstations.

Call of Duty: Black Ops III doesn't run at 30 on PS3 and 360. Unlocked framerate, actually.

But that only scratches the surface of how cut-down the ports truly are.
Well i figured half the framerate compared to the staple not-stable 60 FPS that COD is known for would be enough :)
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
Atleast those digitized actors werent in Mario ;)
Also Donkey Kong's visuals are mostly the result of them being pre-rendered by SGI workstations.
While true, I think that sells it short. There is a lot of technical wizardry going on in DKC. It's definitely a game which pushes the Super NES hardware in a lot of key areas. I'll be doing something on this very soon.
 

ApeEscaper

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,720
Bangladeshi
PS2
Kingdom Hearts 1 near launch title to Kingdom Hearts 2 late title, many technical improvements in many areas huge leap

Also for PS4 By Shin-Ra the realtime cutscenes big differences
Skin and hair rendering's seen some very nice improvements since inFAMOUS SS and First Light.

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I can't remember any characters with long facial hair in SS or FL so they might have deliberately avoided it until their tech was up to the task.
 

Beef Stallmer

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
875
Didn't know you had access to my PS account!

Looking at your PS account I see what the problem is; you only played the 0.7.4c build of the game, which is pre-alpha. This explains your post as that version did not have destructible trees and moving/reactive foliage yet. The retail version however does. You should try that one, especially as the final game is even beter than your pre-alpha version with the "cardboard cutout trees" :-)
 

chicken_pasta

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
893
Looking at your PS account I see what the problem is; you only played the 0.7.4c build of the game, which is pre-alpha. This explains your post as that version did not have destructible trees and moving/reactive foliage yet. The retail version however does. You should try that one, especially as the final game is even beter than your pre-alpha version with the "cardboard cutout trees" :-)
Dude. Just stop. It's getting pathetic.
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
Worth noting that Silmeria could be made to run in 1080i
Sort of. I captured this for MLiG's PS2 episode and it seems to be the Japanese version only (which is the only one I've played through) and it's obviously not taking advantage of the full resolution. I'm not sure what the resolution is but it's still in the ballpark of 480p or so in terms of pixels rendered.

Orphen is interesting. It's one of those games where the camera simply clips through scenery while rotating around the characters. Similar to Oni, actually. You wind up see geometry outside of the room you're in - like using no clipping in Quake.
 

OmegaZero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
71
E.X.Troopers looks super nice in motion but RE: Revelations looks better in screens due to its use of visual techniques and more realistic art style imho.
 
That's not the game on 3DS. I don't believe you.
First shot certainly is. You can tell just by the texturework.

How are E.X. Troopers' graphics better than Revelations'? Revelations is miles more advanced than E.X. Troopers. It's the most graphically impressive game on the 3DS and there's no room for debate on that one.
They are comparable. Which comes as no surprise since they both run on the same tech.
 

Jon Carter

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,746
First shot certainly is. You can tell just by the texturework.


They are comparable. Which comes as no surprise since they both run on the same tech.

They are absolutely not comparable. Running on the same tech doesn't mean the textures, lighting, models, anti-aliasing and effects are comparable.

From tkscz on the old forum - direct feed gameplay:

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They are absolutely not comparable. Running on the same tech doesn't mean the textures, lighting, models, anti-aliasing and effects are comparable.

From tkscz on the old forum - direct feed gameplay:
i was looking for shots too and failed at it.
But to make a comparison, we need direct-feed ex troopers shots aswell.
I also would want to add Ironfall Invasion as a potential 3DS visual spectacle.
 

Jon Carter

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,746
i was looking for shots too and failed at it.
But to make a comparison, we need direct-feed ex troopers shots aswell.
I also would want to add Ironfall Invasion as a potential 3DS visual spectacle.

The most impressive accomplishment of IronFall Invasion is that they managed to make a game that looked that good run at 60 FPS, and they were a 2.5-men team. But because the game doesn't have the AAA budget Revelations does and runs at 60 FPS, there are quite a few obvious shortcuts and compromises (the animations in particular). It's a technical tour de force, but it doesn't touch Revelations graphically and could never be expected to. Realistic games just need lots of money.

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EDIT: Found some direct-feed gameplay screenshots of E.X. Troopers, courtesy of PsionBolt at the old place.

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Looks great, no doubt about it, but it's nowhere near as complex and detailed visually as Revelations, Mercenaries or IronFall.
 
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Ecotic

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,408
I still vividly remember the Xbox 360 launch being derided as Xbox 1.5, since it was released after only 4 years and it was being questioned as not a true generational leap (and the PS3 was being hyped up as far beyond the 360). Perfect Dark Zero still looks incredibly weird, as if it would have been a top of the line game for a hypothetical game console released in holiday 2003. Some parts of PDZ look like an original Xbox game, but then other parts are clearly doing things the Xbox could never handle.