Graphics Tech: Exclusive vs. 3rd Party

[VFX_Veteran]

Disclaimer:

This is NOT a screenshot war thread. It's a technical thread that should be discussed with technical facts and features. So, posting a screenshot to prove a point is NOT the correct response.


Claim:

Based off of exclusive console titles (i.e. God of War, Gears, Uncharted, Spiderman, Detroit, etc..), people believe that they are so technically above 3rd party titles in technology, that they feel with each new iteration of tech, the bar will be raised significantly.

Fallacy:

Assuming developers that make exclusives have some secret skillset on making their games 'look' better than the rest of the pack due to low-level hardware access. There is literally not a single exclusive that does anything better than any other high profile 3rd party company. Dice, Ubisoft, iDSoftware, Epic, CDProject RED, etc.. all have extremely efficient graphics engines that are oftentimes more tech-savy than the exclusive company titles. It just doesn't get as much praise due to them strictly not making exclusive titles.

Reality:

There is no such enhanced technology because most hardware dev kits have moved away from low-level access. There is no real tech introduced in any console generation (ala this current generation is proof). The PC paves the way for new tech and the console follows suite ~2 generations behind. We oftentimes mistake incredible art direction for technology as is the case for many of these console exclusives.

Conclusion:

Don't expect a exclusive title to blow away 3rd party companies games simply because it's a game developer that makes exclusive games.

 

[Sedated]

You have put a claim, then a fallacy and then reality. You haven't gone into the technicalities in both fallacy and reality against the claim. Just written third party engines are sometimes more tech savvy and people mistake incredible art direction with technology. You've written on top that technical facts and features should be discussed but I don't see any in your write up. No examples or anything to prove the points.

I'm no tech guy having knowledge in game development. Just a passerby clicking on the thread. Just saying what I'm seeing and it's kinda disappointing considering your disclaimer.

This feels more like an opinion thread just like the opinion that consoles exclusives are technically above third party titles.

 

[Deleted member 1120]

People saying "I think this game is the best looking ever" really bothers you huh?

 

[Lylo]

History has showed that developing a game with a single console in mind help developers to put out every single trick they have in hand to get the result they want, just look at the Rare's games on the Nintendo 64.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

I think its like art, you can give people the same canvas and paints but the results vary based on who is painting.
I think aaa devs have the same quality canvas and paints

 

[chandoog]

People saying "I think this game is the best looking ever" really bothers you huh?

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You should look up the god of war gaming bolt graphics thread.

 

[Deleted member 34239]

You have put a claim, then a fallacy and then reality. You haven't gone into the technicalities in both fallacy and reality against the claim. Just written third party engines are sometimes more tech savvy and people mistake incredible art direction with technology. You've written on top that technical facts and features should be discussed but I don't see any in your write up. No examples or anything to prove the points.

I'm no tech guy having knowledge in game development. Just a passerby clicking on the thread. Just saying what I'm seeing and it's kinda disappointing considering your disclaimer.

This feels more like an opinion thread just like the opinion that consoles exclusives are technically above third party titles.

Click to shrink...

It's VFX_Vetern so what do you expect. Honestly the username is ironic because a graphics veteran wouldn't make as many poor arguments as this user does.... You only need to go look at the god of war visuals thread to verify this claim.

 

[WinFonda]

seems to me most 3rd party tech is geared toward executing the current genre zeitgeist efficiently and effectively, so say, open world shooting games... whereas first party devs are able to put focus on different things from tech to design and make them shine in unique ways because essentially they are tasked with differentiating their box from the others

 

[Heckler456]

I don't understand. Which technologies are standard for third party games that don't exist in first party games?

Also, I'm just a layman, so correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't actually do anything with incredible art direction alone. It and the tech behind it go hand in hand. A game that looks amazing, more often than not, has state of the art tech to back it up.

Oh and, you're supporting none of your claims, by the way. Saying "the new consoles have no new tech!" is so hilariously reductive that it almost completely undermines your entire post.

 

[Crayon]

Seems a little insecure.

Here's my theory: Money + time + talent + management = graphics.

My formula has has explanatory power.

Exclusives look better because they are on a loss leader business model as a marketing exercise for the platform.

 

[Deleted member 36708]

If this thread has a life it will be interesting to see how it turns out.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

You have put a claim, then a fallacy and then reality. You haven't gone into the technicalities in both fallacy and reality against the claim. Just written third party engines are sometimes more tech savvy and people mistake incredible art direction with technology. You've written on top that technical facts and features should be discussed but I don't see any in your write up. No examples or anything to prove the points.

I'm no tech guy having knowledge in game development. Just a passerby clicking on the thread. Just saying what I'm seeing and it's kinda disappointing considering your disclaimer.

This feels more like an opinion thread just like the opinion that consoles exclusives are technically above third party titles.

Click to shrink...

Tech features today:

1) Ambient Occlusion: every console game uses the old SSAO. The latest tech is HBAO+ which is only available on the PC.
2) Screen-space reflections: most games use just a small portion of their pipeline to render out these. However, there are some 3rd party companies that use it throughout the entire game - Quantum Break, Kingdom Come and a slew of other 3rd party titles.
3) True 4k -- that's an obvious feature that's not even used on current titles due to the enhanced bandwidth required
4) TXAA
5) Anisotropic Filtering - 4x through 8x. 16x is the highest mostly seen on PC titles.
6) Real hair physics and rendering. Simple and crude with no actual collision detection on current console titles. The latest uses an enormous amount of bandwidth and is out of reach.
7) Global Illumination - rarely used in today's exclusives due to it's bandwidth limiting factor. Most games today use light-probes for computing the first bounce. Games like Kingdom Come use completely dynamic changing GI probes.
8) Texture size. Fairly limited in literally every console game. I'd love to see much much larger texture sizes in the next 2 generations.
9) Shaders. This is a big one. While most games have implemented physically based materials, the complexity of said shaders still need a LOT of work. We are still using light maps to compute the SSS solution instead of computing the lighting in the hardware.
10) Shadows. Extremely limited in scope due to it being very expensive for every light source. Not to mention the shadow maps are very low res and could absolutely use a much higher bandwith hardware.

So here is some features.. there's more to talk about, but this will suffice for now.

 

[Xbudz]

Screenshots would help this thread, to illustrate examples.
3rd party games like the new Tomb Raider and Assassins Creed games are just as good as first party offerings in my eyes.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

I think its like art, you can give people the same canvas and paints but the results vary based on who is painting.
I think aaa devs have the same quality canvas and paints

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Then it's artistic talent. I can agree with that. But I don't think every single 'talented' developer ONLY works for the exclusive title companies. That's a ridiculous argument.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

Screenshots would help this thread, to illustrate examples.
3rd party games like the new Tomb Raider and Assassins Creed games are just as good as first party offerings in my eyes.

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No. That makes this thread a screen grab contest. We always go down that road which makes the entire argument subjective. This is an objective (i.e factual) argument. Therefore people need to know what the tech is out there and how it works.

 

[Crayon]

Then it's artistic talent. I can agree with that. But I don't think every single 'talented' developer ONLY works for the exclusive title companies. That's a ridiculous argument.

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And who makes this rediculous argument?

 

[LogN-]

Ultimately it's because a Third Party Developer has to focus on getting their game to work on multiple consoles/PC. Exclusives have just one set of hardware to develop for, therefore it gives them more room to flex with focus. I really think it's as simple as that, the whole team gets to focus on a singular set of specs to work with whereas third party do not.

 

[Echo]

Well I can think of one exclusive dev with GPU tricks that can't be matched, and it isn't any of the console devs. Nvidia. They're constantly adding new features to their Gameworks lineup, and beyond this they're about to have the first and only consumer level Ray-tracing solution on the market. Unfortunately Nvidia doesn't make games, just partners with them to deploy and showoff this tech in the PC space. My personal favorites have been VXAO and hairworks.

If you wanted to just keep it in console space though, I'd argue that DICE and Square-Enix are capable of matching or even outdoing the 1st party devs when the budget allows. FFXV will be a graphics powerhouse until the gen is over, despite the fact that we're coming up on two years from FFXV launch, games aren't doing things better than it on a technical level, just an artistic and design choice one. Likewise, Killzone SF looked great, but Battlefield looked better and runs at double the FPS no less. BFV and FFVIIR will match or exceed 1st party titles that launch around the same window, thanks to the budget, talent, and dedication that go into these massive titles.

 

[Heckler456]

Tech features today:

1) Ambient Occlusion: every console game uses the old SSAO. The latest tech is HBAO+ which is only available on the PC.
2) Screen-space reflections: most games use just a small portion of their pipeline to render out these. However, there are some 3rd party companies that use it throughout the entire game - Quantum Break, Kingdom Come and a slew of other 3rd party titles.
3) True 4k -- that's an obvious feature that's not even used on current titles due to the enhanced bandwidth required
4) TXAA
5) Anisotropic Filtering - 4x through 8x. 16x is the highest mostly seen on PC titles.
6) Real hair physics and rendering. Simple and crude with no actual collision detection on current console titles. The latest uses an enormous amount of bandwidth and is out of reach.
7) Global Illumination - rarely used in today's exclusives due to it's bandwidth limiting factor. Most games today use light-probes for computing the first bounce. Games like Kingdom Come use completely dynamic changing GI probes.
8) Texture size. Fairly limited in literally every console game. I'd love to see much much larger texture sizes in the next 2 generations.
9) Shaders. This is a big one. While most games have implemented physically based materials, the complexity of said shaders still need a LOT of work. We are still using light maps to compute the SSS solution instead of computing the lighting in the hardware.
10) Shadows. Extremely limited in scope due to it being very expensive for every light source. Not to mention the shadow maps are very low res and could absolutely use a much higher bandwith hardware.

So here is some features.. there's more to talk about, but this will suffice for now.

Click to shrink...

None of these points pertain to "first party vs third party", but rather "first party console games vs PC games on a high-end PC".

Then it's artistic talent. I can agree with that. But I don't think every single 'talented' developer ONLY works for the exclusive title companies. That's a ridiculous argument.

Click to shrink...

No one says this. What people do say is that teams like Naughty Dog house some of the industry's finest, which isn't such a farfetched statement.

 

[White Glint]

Pretty much every high profile console game these days seems to have incredible image quality and great materials. So to really knock my socks off you'd need to focus on framerate and reflections - areas where id software clearly kicked everyone's ass with DOOM. No first party sony game impressed me as much as DOOM. I wonder if DOOM Eternal will further focus on improving their screen space reflections or rather try and get the best ray-tracing performance on nvidia's 20xx series. Not that doing one forbids them from doing the other.

 

[Deleted member 25042]

Saying that a game is the best looking doesn't mean that it has to be using the most advanced tech.
"Best looking" is subjective.
I for one only care about the end result, not what techniques were used.
I'm sure quite a number of games do more under the hood than games like GOW, Horizon, Detroit etc but I've been more impressed with the latter.

 

[Heckler456]

double post

 

[VFX_Veteran]

And who makes this rediculous argument?

Click to shrink...

"I think its like art, you can give people the same canvas and paints but the results vary based on who is painting.
I think aaa devs have the same quality canvas and paints."

This comment implies that everyone has the same tech, but companies that create exclusive titles are the ones that have the better "painters" to utilize that tech.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

Ultimately it's because a Third Party Developer has to focus on getting their game to work on multiple consoles/PC. Exclusives have just one set of hardware to develop for, therefore it gives them more room to flex with focus. I really think it's as simple as that, the whole team gets to focus on a singular set of specs to work with whereas third party do not.

Click to shrink...

That is simply untrue. Name a game that uses some form of tech that is impossible to implement by a 3rd party company due to it's exclusivity.

 

[pswii60]

Some exclusives look better than some third party games and some third party games look better than some exclusives.

 

[Heckler456]

That is simply untrue. Name a game that uses some form of tech that is impossible to implement by a 3rd party company due to it's exclusivity.

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For the upcoming TLOU:II: Motion matching. Only one game has implemented it so far to any degree, to my knowledge, and that was For Honor. Depends on how well they deliver though. Compare it with the new Tomb Raider game. Heck, compare the new Tomb Raider game with Uncharted 4 or Lost Legacy.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

None of these points pertain to "first party vs third party", but rather "first party console games vs PC games on a high-end PC".

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That doesn't matter. All the PC games are 3rd party games (most of them). We still hear claims that exclusive titles are utilizing the console hardware such that even a high-end PC game (made by a 3rd party dev) can't match it. Also, the 1X is clearly more powerful than the PS4 Pro. And it still gets downplayed

No one says this. What people do say is that teams like Naughty Dog house some of the industry's finest, which isn't such a farfetched statement.

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There is simply way too much talent out there to think that only the Sony developers are the best. Too many people, not enough to house such a small company like ND, so then their must be other talent that works elsewhere (i.e. CDProject RED). The bias is with some Sony/MS fans. The MS fans really can't make these arguments because the PC is superior to the 1X and so is on the sidelines.

 

[bionic77]

Almost all games look pretty amazing these days.

People seem to argue over minor things or the art, which is expected as this is a forum for games, but for me none of that stuff is really compelling anymore.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

For the upcoming TLOU:II: Motion matching.

Click to shrink...

Unfortunately, that's a feature that can't be detected by a screenshot. Most of the arguments about exclusives being superior is based on photo threads, or screen grabs.

Only one game has implemented it so far to any degree, to my knowledge, and that was For Honor. Depends on how well they deliver though. Compare it with the new Tomb Raider game. Heck, compare the new Tomb Raider game with Uncharted 4 or Lost Legacy.

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Are you implying that the new TR game will be technically inferior to UC4 or LL?

 

[Heckler456]

Unfortunately, that's a feature that can't be detected by a screenshot. Most of the arguments about exclusives being superior is based on photo threads, or screen grabs.



Are you implying that the new TR game will be technically inferior to UC4 or LL?

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In terms of what can be seen on a screenshot? Sure.

 

[Crayon]

"I think its like art, you can give people the same canvas and paints but the results vary based on who is painting.
I think aaa devs have the same quality canvas and paints."

This comment implies that everyone has the same tech, but companies that create exclusive titles are the ones that have the better "painters" to utilize that tech.

Click to shrink...

So does this comment:

"We oftentimes mistake incredible art direction for technology as is the case for many of these console exclusives."

But neither imply this:

"[The argument that towards] every single 'talented' developer ONLY works for the exclusive title companies. That's a ridiculous argument."

If you want the conversation to be sensible then tighten it up a bit.

 

[Snefer]

For the upcoming TLOU:II: Motion matching. Only one game has implemented it so far to any degree, to my knowledge, and that was For Honor. Depends on how well they deliver though. Compare it with the new Tomb Raider game. Heck, compare the new Tomb Raider game with Uncharted 4 or Lost Legacy.

Click to shrink...

Actually a whole bunch of games have implemented it by now. Probably even more will by the time TLOU 2 releases.

 

[Heckler456]

Actually a whole bunch of games have implemented it by now. Probably even more will by the time TLOU 2 releases.

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Which ones have?

 

[Rodjer]

I think we reached a point when every major publisher can deliver good looking games in any genre, the whole: "Exclusive games Always looks better than 3rd party titles" is just console warrior bullshit.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

In terms of what can be seen on a screenshot? Sure.

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That's subjective -- which is my point. No one really ever talks about what's going on and how it's superior to other platforms. The new TR game on PC will be graphically superior to any of the UC games that have come out this generation.

 

[Xyber]

That is simply untrue. Name a game that uses some form of tech that is impossible to implement by a 3rd party company due to it's exclusivity.

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No one is saying it's impossible, just that when you only need to focus on 1 platform you can spend more time making things more suited for that piece of hardware. Figure out solutions that might have taken too long to implement on multiple platforms because of different hardware and software.

 

[Benny Del Toro]

Conclusion:

Don't expect a exclusive title to blow away 3rd party companies games simply because it's a game developer that makes exclusive games.

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I don't know the purpose of this thread when the OP is clearly not open for discussion anyway.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

If you want the conversation to be sensible then tighten it up a bit.

Click to shrink...

Can you be more direct at what you are trying to get at? I'm looking for features in exclusive games that aren't present in 3rd party games due to the development staff being able to concentrate more on 1 hardware platform.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

No one is saying it's impossible, just that when you only need to focus on 1 platform you can spend more time making things more suited for that piece of hardware. Figure out solutions that might have taken too long to implement on multiple platforms because of different hardware and software.

Click to shrink...

Example?

 

[DryCreek]

.

 

[Heckler456]

That's subjective -- which is my point. No one really ever talks about what's going on and how it's superior to other platforms. The new TR game on PC will be graphically superior to any of the UC games that have come out this generation.

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But if some subsection of people think that many of the first party games look better than third party games on PC, and you claim that PC third party games have the technological upper hand, then why were you so adamantly denying that maybe the people working in those first party studios are super talented and some of this industry's best? Because by your logic, third party PC games should unequivocally look better than first party titles, while I'm much more impressed by how Uncharted 4, let alone TLOU:II looks than I am impressed at how the new Tomb Raider looks.

Which is to say, this is an either or situation. First party developer can't both be on the technological back foot and be average developers.

 

[nib95]

Sounds like a VFX_Veteren thread/post alright. Anyway, from my personal experience, on consoles, exclusives are generally (though not always) the best looking and/or more technically accomplished games, which makes sense given you can optimise to a far more stringent degree if you're only making your game for the one platform. Look to any console generation and by in large the best graphical showcases are usually exclusives.

 

[Alej]

Pathetic OP with an agenda. No point made, no proof, nothing.

Come on, i could have done better than you.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

if you can tune your software to a specific hardware configuration you will probably end up with a better result. whether that be bespoke solutions, or just being to have more effects at a higher quality go off at once. an entire team only having to work for one platform can save you so much time which can then go into optimisation and the like. plus that couples with 1st party games being seen as tentpole franchises for publishers, software to sell hardware to sell more software and generate sales through their platform. publishers are willing to spend more time and perhaps resources on their tentpole games.

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That all sounds great and logical. But where's the beef? I'm seeing the same shortcuts and lack of features in exclusives as I do with 3rd party games on said hardware. This is proof that the hardware is the limiting factor - not the talent.

 

[MysticGon]

So you are saying it's a level playing field and 1st party are praised too much at the expense of 3rd party?

Maybe. Digital Foundry does a great job pulling back the curtain on all that. Don't focus too much on the chants of fanboys.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

Sounds like a VFX_Veteren thread/post alright. Anyway, from my personal experience, on consoles, exclusives are generally (though not always) the best looking and/or more technically accomplished games, which makes sense given you can optimise to a far more stringent degree if you're only making your game for the one platform. Look to any console generation and by in large the best graphical showcases are usually exclusives.

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Nib95, you are basing that off of popularity and subjective opinions? There isn't single graphics feature on an exclusive that hasn't been done by a 3rd party company. You mention 'more technically accomplished'. Can you elaborate on that please?

 

[Xyber]

Example?

Click to shrink...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdD0GvVRSMc

This was mainly the thing I was thinking about, have seen other videos like it for other stuff as well.

Yes, it's not a modern game, but point still stands. Give a smart person the time to work on something without the need to focus on making it work on multiple platforms and great stuff can come out of it.

 

[Crayon]

I'm afraid our veteran is suffering shell shock.

Like others have mentioned, this is a pattern. It's about a Sony game, yet again. Sure there are many little fanboys swarming around to play it up but take a look in the mirror sometime.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdD0GvVRSMc

This was mainly the thing I was thinking about, have seen other videos like it for other stuff as well.

Yes, it's not a modern game, but point still stands. Give a smart person the time to work on something without the need to focus on making it work on multiple platforms and great stuff can come out of it.

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Can you pick out something like that example with current exclusives that make it stand out?

 

[justiceiro]

For me, is less about about a pretty game and more about systems and mechanics that are only possible on a different hardware. It's not like I can tell apart which games are more technically advanced these days anyway...