Greg Miller and Andrea Rene handwave Notch and PewDiePie racist, transphobic and anti-semitic behaviour (UP: GM and AR respond; see threadmarks)

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Jul 17, 2018
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All I will say is that as a black guy, I’m still a fan on Kinda Funny, but Greg and Andrea seem to be misinformed here. I think they should’ve just refrained from speaking on this topic. I also think that you guys need to chill on the pitchforks and torches. Greg and Andrea are genuinely great people who have both been willing to listen to criticism and are DEFINITELY NOT RACIST OR BIGOTED. I know that this site and the older one weren’t the biggest fans of Greg Miller/KF, but this hate is on a WAY different level, and very unwarranted. But I said my peace, I’m outtie ✌
Right, so why are they handwaving and/or defending racists and bigots?
 

Lukar

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Oct 27, 2017
11,900
That's some impressive Trump-style hyperbole. Good job.
Greg has never come across as anything but a nice person to me. Naive at times, but never meaning any ill-will towards anyone, and always trying to help people when he can. This incident is unfortunate, but I genuinely believe that on his part, it stemmed from a lack of knowledge. He absolutely should have educated himself on the subject more before speaking on it, but I don't think he intended to be as dismissive as he was, because that isn't the kind of person he is.
 

Sense

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Oct 25, 2017
2,233
While I agree it was disappointing to see them not be more critical of what notch or pewdiepie have said or done, I wish some of you did not resort to name calling or be disrespectful. It is painful to read through the thread. I hope they address the situation. They are human beings and are allowed to make mistakes.
 

Siresly

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Oct 27, 2017
3,555
Well. I've been a patron of What's Good Games since the start. Thought I was supporting something what's good.
Not interested in supporting someone defending and enabling the horrible hateful behavior of a borderline Nazi, whether it's through ignorance or something else.

While I understand that for a lot of you, these people don’t deserve some of the scorn they are receiving in this thread, The fact is, this is Bigger then just Videogames.

You can be upset at how aggressive the rhetoric towards them is, just as much as Others can be upset about how little they care about normalizing dangerous people.

If you really are fans of their content, and fans of them as people, you owe it to yourselves and to them to Stop defending their Ambivalent behaviour, and hold them to a higher standard. People in their position set a Dangerous Precedent treating people enabling shootings like PewDiePie with kids gloves, and they should be politely and consistently held responsible until they are aware of the Responsibility they hold in their position.

Also, recognize why people get so mad they stop being polite when talking about this issue as For many people now, Especially after the things these two have said or done, this is much more then two videogame entertainers being uncritical about newsworthy individuals in their industry. Most people, Hell, ALL PEOPLE have a lot to lose letting these kinds of hateful people off the hook, and most are treating this the right way, as Unacceptable.

Please be more critical of people you enjoy watching or listening to on the internet. If you truly love and respect them as people, Be willing to Recognize when they’ve done wrong, and be supportive of them for trying to correct it. Playing Defense for internet celebrities isn’t going to convince anybody that doesn’t care about them, and it’s sure as shit isn’t going to help them improve and recognize their mistakes.

If they Double Down, and are unwilling to see their behaviour as unacceptable, You only owe it to yourself for providing a tiny piece of the shield that lets them think that way. If they have nothing to lose being uncritical of Massive Issues, they will Continue to be uncritical of Massive Issues, Period. Nobody should be thought to be above this kind of deflection, because for all intents and purposes, the most powerful or influential people never have to.

If you care about Kinda Funny, Please let them know responsibly how this isn’t okay. And try not to get too bent out of shape when people are understandably Angry about downplaying some of the most influential people in Games being Massively Problematic.
This post for 2020.
 
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Flavius

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Oct 28, 2017
717
Orlando, FL
I'm continuing to listen to this as I've got some mindless work that has to get finished this morning...the more I listen, the less of a problem I have with Greg. There are at least a couple of points where Greg seems to start to attack the issue, and on both occasions he's met with Andrea's "Well..." and then....poof, it's gone. She's also clearly sick...was she just loopy? Is their chemistry always this poor?

Again, I've never listened or watched any KF content before, so I've no idea. That the conversation was poorly (and very ignorantly) handled is 100% fact, and that continues to be my primary takeaway.

EDIT: Also, anecdote is the singular of data and whatnot, but...I operate a moderately sized STEM nonprofit. I run afterschool workshops and speak to thousands of kids over the course of a year. Unless it's just "something in the water" down here in the South, kids DEFINITELY know who Notch is. I was pretty shocked to hear that and the Neil Druckmann analogy was also pretty laughable.
 
Jul 17, 2018
480
Greg has never come across as anything but a nice person to me. Naive at times, but never meaning any ill-will towards anyone, and always trying to help people when he can. This incident is unfortunate, but I genuinely believe that on his part, it stemmed from a lack of knowledge. He absolutely should have educated himself on the subject more before speaking on it, but I don't think he intended to be as dismissive as he was, because that isn't the kind of person he is.
Right, he was always nice to you, that makes it all ok.

Also, why do people on the Internet think that citing ignorance is a proper defense that can be also used as an apology?
 

plagiarize

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Oct 25, 2017
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All I will say is that as a black guy, I’m still a fan on Kinda Funny, but Greg and Andrea seem to be misinformed here. I think they should’ve just refrained from speaking on this topic. I also think that you guys need to chill on the pitchforks and torches. Greg and Andrea are genuinely great people who have both been willing to listen to criticism and are DEFINITELY NOT RACIST OR BIGOTED. I know that this site and the older one weren’t the biggest fans of Greg Miller/KF, but this hate is on a WAY different level, and very unwarranted. But I said my peace, I’m outtie ✌
One of the things that kind of says 'white privilege' to me is when white people (I'm a white person) think they should have the benefit of the doubt on something because they've made their position clear in the past. Thinking they have the benefit of the doubt on such issues, is a bit of a trap I see generally good people walk into. Obviously if you're familiar with previous statements by the person you'll not question their motive, but audiences are constantly in flux, and it's something we all need to be constantly aware of.

There isn't an amount of good I can do to give me the benefit of the doubt from everyone indefinitely. We shouldn't be annoyed because minorities that don't know us question whether or not we're an ally after comments like these. That stuff has to be earned and maintained.

How someone can talk about this issue, and think they don't need to make it clear *upfront* their opinion on the very comments that have seen Notch not get an invite to the event is beyond me, but I see it happen enough that I recognize that this is a blind spot for many.

It is "okay to be white" but white people do not deserve the benefit of the doubt. We do not get the default presumption from a minority that we're an ally. Nor should we.
 

Brando

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Oct 25, 2017
314
Calling KFGD a news show is pretty disingenuous. It's ESPN First Take with internet personalities reacting to news headlines, bits, and pieces of content from other places around the internet. I'm not at all surprised at Andrea based on her contrarian hot takes on other issues, but Greg has a fucking journalism degree and should know better than this.
 

Zelas

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Oct 25, 2017
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He doesnt really want to call out Notch and PDP as the racists they are and then pops in with an apology where he doesnt address Renee’s bullshit when it clearly needs to be addressed.

He says he “doesnt know it all.” That isnt possible for someone in his position and for as big as the controversies have been. To claim ignorance on these two topics in particular means you either dont care about the harm they’re doing because it doesnt affect you or you want to defend them with “what’s the big deal/we don’t know the whole story” bullshit.
 

Deleted member 23212

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While I agree it was disappointing to see them not be more critical of what notch or pewdiepie have said or done, I wish some of you did not resort to name calling or be disrespectful. It is painful to read through the thread. I hope they address the situation. They are human beings and are allowed to make mistakes.
Greg did address it earlier in the thread.
 

Cohesivestraw

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Oct 29, 2017
145
I'm continuing to listen to this as I've got some mindless work that has to get finished this morning...the more I listen, the less of a problem I have with Greg. There are at least a couple of points where Greg seems to start to attack the issue, and on both occasions he's met with Andrea's "Well..." and then....poof, it's gone. She's also clearly sick...was she just loopy? Is their chemistry always this poor?

Again, I've never listened or watched any KF content before, so I've no idea. That the conversation was poorly (and very ignorantly) handled is 100% fact, and that continues to be my primary takeaway.
I agree. I listened yesterday and knew right away there would be an uproar here. There chemistry isn't usually this bad. I listen regularly but turn off if Greg, Tim isn't on it. Andrea and Gary are my favorite seconds. She was arguing and kinda bitchy the whole podcast. I believe it was due to her being sick. I think Greg is a good guy and this is getting blown way out of proportion but then again it always does here.
 

Lukar

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Oct 27, 2017
11,900
Right, he was always nice to you, that makes it all ok.

Also, why do people on the Internet think that citing ignorance is a proper defense that can be also used as an apology?
I'm not saying his ignorance is okay-- he and Andrea should have looked at the facts before the show rather than during and after. To handle it the way they did was really unprofessional and just not a good way to do it, period.

I am saying that I don't think it's right to vilify the two over this, when they haven't even really had a chance yet to apologize, acknowledge their mistakes, and improve on them. People's feelings over this are valid - I'm especially upset at them handwaving PDP's transphobic behavior away - but I just don't think the two meant to do that. Or at least not Greg. That doesn't make what they did okay, but I do think it at least means they can genuinely improve in the future.

EDIT: Yeah, I'm definitely not okay with Andrea in this scenario. I've disagreed with her stances on things many times, but this crosses the line. Still think Greg meant well, but I'm not quite so forgiving about her.
 
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Tidus

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Oct 25, 2017
108
Right, he was always nice to you, that makes it all ok.

Also, why do people on the Internet think that citing ignorance is a proper defense that can be also used as an apology?
Ignorance should never be used as a defense or apart of an apology. You should always learn about what you are talking about before you make a statement on a subject. They deserve all the smoke for this situation cause that stream sounded stupid as hell. Although, at what point do you accept his statement of apology or are people just gonna keep bringing the pitchforks to just dog pile on?
 

Flavius

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Oct 28, 2017
717
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I agree. I listened yesterday and knew right away there would be an uproar here. There chemistry isn't usually this bad. I listen regularly but turn off if Greg, Tim isn't on it. Andrea and Gary are my favorite seconds. She was arguing and kinda bitchy the whole podcast. I believe it was due to her being sick. I think Greg is a good guy and this is getting blown way out of proportion but then again it always does here.
Thanks for confirming. I genuinely got the impression that they either didn't know each other very well, or they just didn't really care for each other all that much.
 

Deleted member 203

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Greg doesn't come off that badly if you listen to the segment imo, mostly just not super well-informed, and worse, totally unwilling to push back against Andrea, who does come off really badly here.

And yeah actually if you're gonna be talking about why Notch is an awful human being, not just a rich weirdo who did wacky tweets, you *do* need to look at what he's actually saying. Otherwise why even talk about it?
 

Deleted member 274

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What's the bigger point you're trying to make here, exactly?

Money is the only language those people speak and losing their revenue streams is the only way to make them change.
It won't change a thing lol

Not enough people care, and even if they did, people still gonna buy it regardless. And even if they stopped, as long as they got streamers and youtubers on their side they don't need anything else, and there's nothing more spineless in this world than a big time youtuber/streamer.

Want proof? Just look at how much MK11 numbers got affected by employing known transphobe and sandy hook truther Ronda Rousey

Hint: it didn't do shit, people were more offended by the game's monetization than by the bigot's appearance, I mean, people were more offended by how fucking awful she was at VA than by what her appearance meant as a fuck you who cares message to a whole community

And anyway, what I'm trying to explain to you is that you can't expect a proven con artist with as shady of a background as Randy fucking Pitchford to do the right thing ever, focus your efforts on other stuff, this ain't it.
 
Jul 17, 2018
480
Ignorance should never be used as a defense or apart of an apology. You should always learn about what you are talking about before you make a statement on a subject. They deserve all the smoke for this situation cause that stream sounded stupid as hell. Although, at what point do you accept his statement of apology or are people just gonna keep bringing the pitchforks to just dog pile on?
Where was the apology, really? He said he was misunderstood bybthe op and if not, he cited ignorance saying he 'doesn't know everything'. It's a classic non-apology, standard PR-speak.
 

chogidogs

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Oct 25, 2017
1,290
Surprised that game press can still use the ignorance excuse at this time and age. We already have tons of YouTube personalities doing that. Be better.
 

Kusagari

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Oct 25, 2017
11,382
Greg comes off more meek and uninformed than anything.

Andrea was the one running active interference and defenses of Notch and PDP. She came off terribly.
 

phonicjoy

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Jun 19, 2018
2,995
As an European Black man: Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. If Europeans do not know the connotation of that word, how come that there are European versions of it?
How come that Europeans, who at one point owned all of Africa, don't know the connotation behind a word that originated from slavery?

What a bullshit excuse
Its a bullshit excuse, especially for PDP (who is an international celebrity, I mean come on). But... I have literally heard a whole festival terrain of teenage whitegirls here singing along with Kendrick lamar, including all of the fucking n-words. I've never felt more uncomfortable in my life. Edit: (and I'm pretty much white)
 

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
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Oct 25, 2017
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Being uninformed or ignorant about something this blatant is not an excuse in an age where you have instant access to any piece of information you could possibly want sitting in your pocket. Especially not when it’s dealing with an industry you are supposed to cover.
Truth. Someone in Greg’s position would have to purposefully turn a blind eye.
 
Jul 17, 2018
480
It won't change a thing lol

Not enough people care, and even if they did, people still gonna buy it regardless. And even if they stopped, as long as they got streamers and youtubers on their side they don't need anything else, and there's nothing more spineless in this world than a big time youtuber/streamer.

Want proof? Just look at how much MK11 numbers got affected by employing known transphobe and sandy hook truther Ronda Rousey

Hint: it didn't do shit, people were more offended by the game's monetization than by the bigot's appearance, I mean, people were more offended by how fucking awful she was at VA than by what her appearance meant as a fuck you who cares message to a whole community

And anyway, what I'm trying to explain to you is that you can't expect a proven con artist with as shady of a background as Randy fucking Pitchford to do the right thing ever, focus your efforts on other stuff, this ain't it.
Maybe get out of the gaming bubble and look how David Hogg owned Laura Ingraham by pulling advertisers from her show. Inaction is never the answer.
 

LuisGarcia

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Oct 31, 2017
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I really think the Greg bashing in this thread is way overboard. He always comes across as one of the good guys and having listed to this I think his biggest flaw is not being more forceful with his opinions. He is constantly shut down by Andrea and then just kind of follows along.

Andrea deserves it though and is clear from this that her views are not far from the people in question.
 

Deleted member 274

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Maybe get out of the gaming bubble and look how David Hogg owned Laura Ingraham by pulling advertisers from her show. Inaction is never the answer.
The gaming community is too deep down the toxic rabbit hole to be saved imo, otherwise I'd agree.

I'm not telling you to ignore it and continue to consume their products btw, all I'm saying is that you're up to do whatever you want as a consumer, just don't expect a whole lot of people to follow you and deprive themselves from playing the shiny new game because they employed these two questionable personalities.
 

Tidus

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Oct 25, 2017
108
Where was the apology, really? He said he was misunderstood bybthe op and if not, he cited ignorance saying he 'doesn't know everything'. It's a classic non-apology, standard PR-speak.
I get it. He did mention that and as I said earlier its no excuse. He should probably make himself more definitive which would be a good start to help himself. He seems to have a problem doing that. I'm asking a genuine question though, what exactly would it take cause it seems like he's damned if he does or damned if he doesnt.
 

Buzzman

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There isn't an amount of good I can do to give me the benefit of the doubt from everyone indefinitely. We shouldn't be annoyed because minorities that don't know us question whether or not we're an ally after comments like these. That stuff has to be earned and maintained.

How someone can talk about this issue, and think they don't need to make it clear *upfront* their opinion on the very comments that have seen Notch not get an invite to the event is beyond me, but I see it happen enough that I recognize that this is a blind spot for many.

It is "okay to be white" but white people do not deserve the benefit of the doubt. We do not get the default presumption from a minority that we're an ally. Nor should we.
I understand the anger and why you don't want to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. But honestly I'm afraid that if we are too critical and harsh towards allies, there's a big chance we might just alienate them entirely. Of course we would like people not to make mistakes, but it is always going to happen, especially in people who don't have the exact same life experiences as minorities. As long as they're willing to learn, I feel it would be counterproductive to call them idiots, scum or dismiss them after one mistake. Sadly you sometimes do need these people on your side to enact change.
 

Flavius

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Oct 28, 2017
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Do they revisit this conversation again? If not, the conversation ends with a really sad sounding "We sure can, Greg." right around the 33:54 mark for those of you who might not yet have listened.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,523
Greg has never come across as anything but a nice person to me. Naive at times, but never meaning any ill-will towards anyone, and always trying to help people when he can. This incident is unfortunate, but I genuinely believe that on his part, it stemmed from a lack of knowledge. He absolutely should have educated himself on the subject more before speaking on it, but I don't think he intended to be as dismissive as he was, because that isn't the kind of person he is.
He just showed the kind of person that he is. Ignorance is not really an excuse for someone covering the games industry, where gamergate and the alt-right continues to be a big thing and where Notch and PDP are two of the biggest names around.

Andrew making excuses for Notch and PDP is just disgusting though.

Truth. Someone in Greg’s position would have to purposefully turn a blind eye.
^^^^
 

Jebusman

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Oct 27, 2017
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But honestly I'm afraid that if we are too critical and harsh towards allies, there's a big chance we might just alienate them entirely.
If an "ally" is willing to flip on something like this they were never allies. An "ally" is someone who has enough self-reflection in their body to see and recognize their own mistakes, even when confronted by others.

If the very act of being confronted is what causes you to switch, you never cared about the issues in the first place. An "Ally" would continue to fight for what is right regardless.
 

Darryl M R

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Oct 25, 2017
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Yep.



Oh yeah. But like some people said, they are sellouts and don’t want to compromise potential business opportunities with these people.
I agree with that point, though someone might argue that they were always industry-friendly and nothing changed. I’m confused why they would even touch such a topic, if they want to take a industry-friendly stance.

All I known is that Tim would have probably had harsher and more direct wording towards both Notch and PDP.
 

boontobias

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Apr 14, 2018
4,807
I dont know enough about it to comment on it
I dont know these people personally so I dont really know if they believe what they say
If only we had the context for those statements then maybe we could know what he actually meant

Claiming ignorance and hiding facts is the same as defending those people to your audience of thousands, who may know as little as you do but now thanks to you have inherited your ignorance and handwaving ability. Take some responsibility jeez
 

LuckyLinus

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Jun 1, 2018
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Greg doesn't come off that badly if you listen to the segment imo, mostly just not super well-informed, and worse, totally unwilling to push back against Andrea, who does come off really badly here.

And yeah actually if you're gonna be talking about why Notch is an awful human being, not just a rich weirdo who did wacky tweets, you *do* need to look at what he's actually saying. Otherwise why even talk about it?
Greg is usually not that assertive when someone takes a hard stance, he tries to dance around the midle.

Andrea is full of takes that I cant agree with, Im not surprised if ger views but Im kind of surprised that she said it out loud.
 

JJH

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Oct 27, 2017
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What was the anthem debacle? I listen to kf gamecast only and don't remember it
I believe it was on GD where Andrea called out early reviews stating that the game had many problems after not playing herself. And also it’s the players fault that the game doesn’t explain basic gameplay mechanics. It was very alarming coming from someone that has worked with EA in the past especially recently.
 

TheRuralJuror

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Oct 25, 2017
5,681
I understand the anger and why you don't want to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. But honestly I'm afraid that if we are too critical and harsh towards allies, there's a big chance we might just alienate them entirely. Of course we would like people not to make mistakes, but it is always going to happen, especially in people who don't have the exact same life experiences as minorities. As long as they're willing to learn, I feel it would be counterproductive to call them idiots, scum or dismiss them after one mistake. Sadly you sometimes do need these people on your side to enact change.
People need to develop a bit of character then. If I can’t call you on your shit without you then being alienated entirely, you weren’t that much of an ally to begin with. This is just another situation where minorities are being told to swallow their pride so that a couple of white folks talking out of their ass don’t get their feelings hurt and I’d imagine most are sick of it. We’re not here to coddle and educate every ignoramous who has some dumb shit to say without looking it up.

I believe it was on GD where Andrea called out early reviews stating that the game had many problems after not playing herself. And also it’s the players fault that the game doesn’t explain basic gameplay mechanics. It was very alarming coming from someone that has worked with EA in the past especially recently.
There’s nothing worst than an opinionated person that doesn’t know what they’re talking about and from just this video alone, it’s done on multiple fronts. I don’t even care about EGS all that much, but I had to roll my eyes at the “it’s just another launcher” line. It appears that discussing matters in bad faith is the norm there.
 

NoName999

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Oct 29, 2017
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I really think the Greg bashing in this thread is way overboard. He always comes across as one of the good guys and having listed to this I think his biggest flaw is not being more forceful with his opinions. He is constantly shut down by Andrea and then just kind of follows along.

Andrea deserves it though and is clear from this that her views are not far from the people in question.
"Not wanting to rock the boat" gives the scumbags free reign to do whatever.

And it's not like Greg is an irrelevant nobody. He's has his own show. He can stay minds. He should know the responsibility of not letting toxic views view.

If he's gonna be this spineless, he really doesn't deserve his show.
 

EssCee

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Oct 27, 2017
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Color me surprised that KFG has scummy people

Greg has always been the king of sitting on a fence - so his responses to this are expected
 

Zelent

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Mar 12, 2019
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All I will say is that as a black guy, I’m still a fan on Kinda Funny, but Greg and Andrea seem to be misinformed here. I think they should’ve just refrained from speaking on this topic. I also think that you guys need to chill on the pitchforks and torches. Greg and Andrea are genuinely great people who have both been willing to listen to criticism and are DEFINITELY NOT RACIST OR BIGOTED. I know that this site and the older one weren’t the biggest fans of Greg Miller/KF, but this hate is on a WAY different level, and very unwarranted. But I said my peace, I’m outtie ✌
I concur. This is getting way blown out of proportion. I don't always agree with Greg and Andrea, but they didn't come off as being racists/bigots. People need to seriously calm down. Threads like this only tend to cause more strife in the gaming community.
 
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