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Greg Miller and Andrea Rene handwave Notch and PewDiePie racist, transphobic and anti-semitic behaviour (UP: GM and AR respond; see threadmarks)
- Thread starter LebGuns
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I don't think you are giving yourself enough credit there, you fought through cancer, which was probably a far greater struggle than most on this site have or ever will face in their lifetimes.
I still don't understand why people think you are responsible to know everything about everything that happens related to gaming on the internet. A sizable knowledge/understanding of the industry and its factors in general, yes, but you should not be expected to know every little detail of every vitriolic thing said on the internet regardless of that competitors platform size.
Far too many people want to just immediately write off someone for saying something they disagree with one time, completely ignoring the years of content they agreed with. They want to immediately rush to the asinine audience threat of "I will stop watching/subscribing/etc." and it is pathetic of them. These dumb all or nothing and with us or against us mentalities need to go away, not everything needs to be a hill to die on.
Edit: And not everything needs a repentance a la Game of Thrones Sparrows
Sure. I just naively assume that the cultural conversations taking place over the past 3-4 years could have done it, too. Especially when those conversations are rampant in your particular industry. Claiming insulation from those conversations for the past few years is certainly a big amount of privilege, to the point that one might conflate that with willful ignorance.
I'm honestly very surprised he replied a second time. Saying fuck bigots and racist adds to it, would have preferred he named certain people but at least it's going the right way.
Thanks for the update and coming back and responding. I had more of an issue with what Andrea said than you said but I know you can't speak for her. Anyway, I really appreciate that you seem to really engaged on this and how to make things better.
Thank you for coming back and responding to this issue. I don't listen to your show or really consume any of your content but after this, I just might. So many people who end up in situations that are similar to yours either become defensive and double down or ignore the issue and hope it blows over. So many times I end up wondering why they did not just admit to their mistakes and take it as an opportunity to grow as a person. I can think of countless examples where all I wanted is a response like yours. I sincerely thank you for giving this issue thought and continuing to engage with this community about it.
Check the thread, if you're in browser, it will be on the top right of the post with the other options.
Greg being willing to engage with and reflect on the criticism is great, but I don't think anyone could be blamed all that much for not responding to this thread. In general, compartmentalizing online criticism, maintaining a certain distance from it, and staying focused on your day to day life is a fairly healthy way to approach the kind of internet presence Andrea Rene has.
Obviously, though, outright dismissal of the criticism wouldn't do anyone any favors, you're equally free to check out from Andrea's work as she is to check out from anything we have to say on this forum, and there will be plenty of future opportunities to see if anything we said resonated with her and others.
I don't think that's really the takeaway here. It requires a certain thickness/obliviousness to be a straight white male in 2019 and not be aware of your privilege. Getting an intimate sense of the contours of that privilege, though, feeling out how it colors your perception of things, of course requires time and experience.
Good response from Greg. I'm glad to see this is all resolving in a better way, only issue left is the fact that Andrea is the one who said actual bad shit
Great response. Good on you dude. I will continue watching your stuff.
That's how privilege works, almost by definition: advantages you don't even need to think about for them to affect you. It will be that way until privilege itself stops being a thing or the heat death of the universe, whichever comes first (smart money is on the latter). That's why pointing out privilege will always be necessary.
The nature of privilege means you can still be insulated by it, even when you know that it exists. Just because you're aware of privilege doesn't mean that you're going to identify cases where you benefit from it as they come up.
Thanks for acknowledging this. Privilege is very hard to see by yourself, and it's easy to have a fragile response to it. Good on you for not doing so.
Same here, I just got tired of the same tired ramblings with no thought or analysis...
Fine for me, less bullshit I have to keep track of lol
There mostly ain't an outrage, admittedly few posters might be a bit. But the criticism towards the discussion they had is because they talked about people whose words and actions cause hurt and harm to other people (minorities). But as they seemingly weren't properly prepared to talk about it, the discussion came of as dismissive/downplaying. Especially on Andrea's part, not so much on Greg's. But it was really disappointing that Greg didn't challenge his co-host about it. More specifically Andrea saying things like "Pewdiepie getting crucified" and talking about "lynchmobs" against him. Pewdiepie is hardly crucified, seems to be doing rather well still and the criticism towards him is well deserved. And people who call out the shit Pewdiepie says/does, aren't a lynch mob by any means but rational people who see the harm in how he behaves, or they are people who he is actually hurting. Notch hasn't been "taken out of context". What goes on with PDP and Notch aren't mistakes, but recurring issues and fully intentional. I guess that N-word was a slip up in the stream, but that doesn't really make it any better. There just is no empathizing with either of them or defending them, for what they've said and done. There's no giving them another chances or the benefit of a doubt. Because it's not about one little fuck up or a mistake. And if people think that maybe PDP and Notch can learn and change, well then they need to be called out on their behaviour too. How else could they learn. So why call it as crucifying and a lynch mob, it's saying that people condemning them are being unreasonable.
When companies like Disney and Microsoft have cut ties and took distance, it's safe to say there's something going on with these two fools even without diving into the details. Also painting this as "MS trying to look good" instead of just "doing the right thing", is weird as fuck. And not just that, but she even calls it disappointing that MS isn't having Notch at the event. Why is it disappointing when MS takes a stance? Andrea herself says in the podcast that companies don't do that often enough, now when they do it's disappointing to her. Is it because the stance is against Notch?
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Exactly. For example, as a man, I would not fathomed that women may be afraid to get gas late at night by themselves because they are harassed by men until I saw a twitter account write about it.
The important part is when your privilege is pointed out, to consider the effect your actions caused rather than what your intent was. Privilege/supremacy is reinforced subconsciously by every part of society that it's inevitable to have racist/sexist/etc. moments regardless of your intentions.
I am glad that you came back Greg, although really you were the lesser of two problems here. Andrea trying to handwave the actions of notch/pdp is more damning, and I'm not sure there's much you can say here that will placate people if she's going to continue to do so in the future without a statement from her.
gameovergreggy Thank you for the update. The fact that you are addressing this at all puts you ahead of most.
I think Miller was mostly just massively out of his depth, and I hope this incident makes him want to improve. He seems to have his head screwed on right, going by his replies here.
Andrea on the other hand I have much, much more heavy criticism of.
I think Miller was mostly just massively out of his depth, and I hope this incident makes him want to improve. He seems to have his head screwed on right, going by his replies here.
Andrea on the other hand I have much, much more heavy criticism of.
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Does he not own (at least in part) the platform? It is absolutely up to Greg Miller to dictate the tone and best practices of his employees. This isn't public access or an open mic night. Greg is ultimately responsible for whatever gets put out there under the 'Kinda Funny' name.
I totally get that this is not a political outlet, but they did a politically charged segment. She knew it was coming. She could have done the research. If I had a meeting with a customer coming up and it was about a topic I wasn't 100% clear on, I would do research ahead of time, because if I don't it reflects poorly on me, my boss, and the company I work for.
I also think that hearing literally nothing from the person who actually did handwave a bunch of racism and transphobia reflects pretty poorly on the leadership at Kinda Funny. That's just my $0.02. Good on Greg for showing up though.
gameovergreggy
Thank you for that response. It really speaks to the person you are to come back and acknowledge the problems and want to do better. For most of us criticizing the segment this is exactly what we wanted to hear from you. Itd be nice to also get some response from andrea too given she was the driving force behind a lot of the more problematic parts of the segment.
Thank you for that response. It really speaks to the person you are to come back and acknowledge the problems and want to do better. For most of us criticizing the segment this is exactly what we wanted to hear from you. Itd be nice to also get some response from andrea too given she was the driving force behind a lot of the more problematic parts of the segment.
I don't watch KF all that often but I was under the impression that Andrea wasn't an actually employee of the company. Just someone who worked with them. Is she actually an employee? If she is then I definitely think he should talk with her about this but I don't think he should force an apology from her. The last thing I want is some fake ass apology from someone who doesn't mean it. If she isn't an employee not much you can do. But I do agree with your sentiment and thought her comments were just terrible.
gameovergreggy Hey, thanks for coming back and reading and continuing to discuss and communicate with us. It really is appreciated and to se you take effort to understand the situation means 100% the difference in providing better and comprehensive coverage on issues like these.
I'm completely unfamiliar with your work, but I gotta be honest; this post is extremely professional, introspective, respectful, and impressive. You might end up being the first gaming "personality" that I've taken an interest in supporting since Sessler; I hope you recognize that as high praise because that's certainly how I mean it. Great job and great response.
Also, the uncomfortable bit, your employee/collaborator Ms. Rene, her statements were truly abhorrent, and honestly she could use a speaking to.
Oh dear. That's DEFINITELY not what I mean (which it sounds like you know). I guess it's the trouble with speaking to my small audience and having them "know" me so well. Do you have suggestions on how I could craft the same message for a wider audience?
This is a better post for sure, thanks taking the time.
If I could make one recommendation. Please examine your relationship with dumbasses like Boogie. It really taints any response that has a hint of "both sides".
I appreciate the response, Greg. It's refreshing and shows understanding... and well, empathy. That's all a lot of us were arguing for.
Someone who takes the time to reflect and engage rather than deflect and tone-police is someone that I believe actually gives a shit. If any of your fanbase gives you shit about this, I implore you to press onwards.
I'm pleasantly surprised. Thanks.
Someone who takes the time to reflect and engage rather than deflect and tone-police is someone that I believe actually gives a shit. If any of your fanbase gives you shit about this, I implore you to press onwards.
I'm pleasantly surprised. Thanks.
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Thank you Greg for this response. It takes a humble man to realize their privilege and reevaluate how he conducts himself. I sincerely appreciate you acknowledging all of this, and most importantly the role your influence could play on tackling bigotry and fighting for all disenfranchised minorities being attacked in the gaming world and elsewhere. I've listened to you for 8 years now, and Monday's episode was one that I felt that perhaps you didn't care about all people, you didn't care to stand up for what's right, and you didn't care to fight for your fans that are minorities or oppressed.
I'm happy to say I was wrong, and glad to see that this thread helped shed light on how you view privilege (and how others view it too). Again, then you for not ignoring this thread, and thank you for listening.
Greg,
I want to make sure you understand where this is coming from. I'm about to make an extremely radical comparison and I don't want you to think this is how I think of you, it's not, but I think it may help in giving you a glimpse into the kinds of perspectives you don't have access to in your day-to-day life.
I'm Jewish (and Latino!), and have a lot of Jewish-presenting features. Last year, when the shooting happened in Pittsburgh, I was deeply frightened because I saw the anti-semitism that I see online (and that has been perpetrated against me in my own life) playing out in the worst way possible. People died for being and looking like me. People were killed because they have names that sound like mine.
After the shooting, the President and his administration regarded the victims as "innocent people." rather than Jews, specifically. This is anti-Semitic because it's an attempt to erase Jewish-ness in favor of a dishonest unity. If Jewish-ness is successfully disregarded in attacks, then the motivation for the attacks disappears and, more importantly, so does the responsibility. If I claim that Trump's history of deliberately undermining the safety of minority groups, including Jews, and his nods to the alt-right directly led to a Jewish massacre in Pittsburgh, that claim can be refuted by urging that it wasn't Jews that were attacked, but instead, "innocent people." People can also say that the president had nothing to do with it because he presented the public with a distress for "innocent people." This proved to be a concerted effort as the event was referred to as an act of "anti-religiosity" and an "attack on all religions," later.
When you say "be better to each other," there's an equal amount of responsibility placed on everyone. There's no consolation for those of us whose lives are on the line. There's no attempt to condemn somebody out of the need to protect somebody else.
We're talking about Notch and PDP here. PDP was mentioned by a mass shooter not to long ago. When you give them the same message you are giving me, that's not being fair in trying to spread positivity, that's choosing a side. When you joke around with Boogie after he claimed that some good came out of the holocaust, you are choosing a side.
There isn't a catch-all phrase for being an ally. Being an ally means using your voice, so that people like me aren't the only ones condemning the people complicit in perpetuating the rhetoric that is killing us. Being an ally means holding those that commit to acts of hatred and bigotry responsible. Being an ally means committing the time to understanding issues completely and complexly so that you can pick the side of the oppressed and condemn the oppressor. Being an ally means pointing to voices of different perspectives and using your platform to promote them, their ideas, their voices.
Hold people responsible. Say their names. Prove to people like me that you don't mind ruffling a white supremacist's feathers if it means standing up for us.
Thank you for engaging with us.
Thank you for seeking out answers to your questions and trying to be better.
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Boom. Good post.
"Fuck bigots and racists" is a nice sentiment, but means very little in this specific instance.
How about "Fuck Notch, Fuck PewDiePie, and yeah, Fuck Boogie".
One of the main issues is that you're working alongside a toxic head-in-the-sand bigot. Andrea's silence is telling and she really needs to be shown the door.
He literally said just that in his first response two days ago in this very thread. But it wasn't enough for some of you.
Anyway we can finally move on. Greg fumbled but came back to pick up the ball and apologized for the mistake. Good on him.
Some of you just will never be satisfied and will continue to sharpen your blades regardless aren't you? I know Boogie is a spineless scumbag but regarding this thread, Greg Miller and KFG what does him have to do with this? Why does Greg needs to come and say "Fuck Boogie" too for you to be satisfied? The answer is he doesn't, you're just moving the goalposts to impossible latitudes that you know not even the best kicker could make it.
To be honest I'm more surprised someone didn't throw in an expectation Greg says "Fuck Trump".
A minority in this thread have been a bit hyperbolic and a little unreasonable to somehow deem Greg to be the vehicle for all their rage at everyone else.
His second reply showed he did some reading and I think it's a very reasonable and thought out response. If some of you are still going at him after a second sincere apology, then that is even when I say Greg has a genuine reason to walk away from you.
Go sharpen your knives and anger at someone else at that point. People have what they asked for in here, someone who didn't just apologise and do a runner. Yet it's not good enough.
Greg literally asked for advice and how to improve. People are responding to that with very well constructed posts. What blades are you referring to?
With regards to the 'personalities' you've both mentioned, these sentiments cannot be expressed enough so long as these people have followers.
He could've come out and say "fuck the Republican Party" and there'd be people here complaining why he didn't openly campaign for Hillary in 2016, I swear.
Greg Miller doesn't deserve this level of hate on Era. He did slipped, bad, but he already posted a second apology. We're all humans and we all make mistakes. But only the best of us are able to acknowledge when we make one.
How has chucking in a random fuck Boogie got anything to do with Greg improving? I mean are we also going to ask Greg to say fuck Jon Tron too before he's "off the hook"?
Keep things relevant to the mistakes Greg might have made, not everything in your head you're angry at.
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