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Greg Miller and Andrea Rene handwave Notch and PewDiePie racist, transphobic and anti-semitic behaviour (UP: GM and AR respond; see threadmarks)

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Oct 25, 2017
13,719
iunno, this post just gives me the impression you want to provoke and annoy people by trying to shoehorn a misogynistic word into your post as many times as absolutely possible
Or it was me trying to challenge the accusation that people simply being upset/angry in this topic are getting lumped in with those that went too far.

But I'm glad you see such simplicity in my posts rather than the effort I'm going to, to talk to people in here.

Though I'll admit maybe you would take all the posts using the C-word in here and put them in the same bracket as those saying Andrea is a liar, cheat, fraud and needs to let her partner know they can do better. Fair enough if so, but I think those kinds of personal smears go above and beyond harsh language. In most cases.

Given that the two men involved in this drama are PDP and Notch.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,514
But don't conflate calling people out with the going too far. "Too far" isn't always subjective, you yourself are responsible for what comes out of your mouth in the face of injustice. You may well be talking about someone who has wronged you in some way, but there is a big difference between trash talk and being abusive yourself.

Here's one takeaway from this to think about. Andrea has been called a cunt in this topic quite a number of times. Now I'm a Brit, I see and hear the word cunt used quite often. Us Brits still know it's potentially the "worst" swear word there is. But we also look to intent. If someone engages in what you could say is cunty-behaviour, you might well feel it's appropriate to say "You've acted like a cunt" or "You're a cunt". And hey, the person maybe has. And we say that to both men and women. It's one of the harshest condemnations you can hurl at someone with the English language. When people are justifiably upset, they often use harsh language.

In America though, calling a woman a cunt is still very taboo, more so than the UK. No matter the intent. GAF used to ban the word cunt, and I don't doubt some on Era staff aren't too happy about how often it might get used around here. Do I think Andrea is probably a little bit upset quite a number of men in this topic called her a cunt? Probably. Many women would take it very poorly to have a sizeable collection of men all saying "You're a fucking cunt".

But here is where I draw my distinction between anger/harsh words and criticism versus taking it too far. I've not got much of an issue with people calling Andrea a cunt given that it was handwaving Notch who is probably one of the biggest cunts on Earth. That is very cunty-behaviour to downplay how much of an asshole Notch is. Could there be a few men who have their own issues with treating women poorly who jump on the bandwagon just to get to call Andrea a cunt /troll and not have anyone care because it seems like they're just angry? Maybe, but that is what it is, the majority using harsh language to condemn your behaviour aren't doing it to throw gendered remarks at you. They're upset people understandably lashing out to an extent, because you downplayed the problematic behaviour of two of the biggest assholes in gaming.

Getting personal to the levels of talking about people's relationships, or stating over the top hyperbole/accusations and comments that are truly in bad taste, is simply not the same as you being angry and using some harsh language to call someone out.
Of course.

I'm from the UK too and I'm still not going to call someone a cunt unironically. It's not on. But as you said, people will use language when they feel hurt, that's part and parcel of online discourse.

Personal attacks are wrong in this case and anything beyond the line should be moderated accordingly. Yes, Andrea's conduct has disappointed me but that's it. I have no right to cast the net to hurt her as a person because of that. That's disgusting and wrong.

Anyone using this as a way of pushing any misogyny should never be welcomed on this forum.

However using that as a shield to deflect legitimate criticism is a low tactic in my honest view. Especially when setting one community against another. Yes, there's issues with Era and moderation can be improved a lot but to use the few idiots to ignore a message of understandable frustration from the majority is wrong.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,622
Sweden
Or it was me trying to challenge the accusation that people simply being upset/angry in this topic are getting lumped in with those that went too far.

But I'm glad you see such simplicity in my posts rather than the effort I'm going to, to talk to people in here.

Though I'll admit maybe you would take all the posts using the C-word in here and put them in the same bracket as those saying Andrea is a liar, cheat, fraud and needs to let her partner know they can do better. Fair enough if so, but I think those kinds of personal smears go above and beyond harsh language. In most cases.
i have liked your other posts on these last few pages, but this specific one just rubbed me the wrong way because of the language used, and you can do better
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,882
I will say - If it wasn't for her followup comments, Andrea's apology would have been damn good. Even calling out Notch and PDP by name, which is something Greg even struggled with.

Her followup comments are what I have a problem with, and I think are the reason why this conversation is still happening. I hope people don't think I'm trying to "drag them through the mud" or whatever. I still have hope they are decent people and will reflect and improve how they handle these situations in the future, but her comments on Reddit make me doubt that she fully understands what went wrong. With any luck, I'm wrong on that.

On the other hand, I've been completely impressed with how Greg has handled this, with honest talk and clear attempts to try and reflect on what happened and learn. It's honestly more than I could have ever expected and he has my full respect for that.

Also, if I'm allowed to be completely blunt. In my mind, Greg's bravery in coming in here and making multiple, long, thoughtful posts on the issue makes him a better man than all the people on the first few pages who immediately wrote them off entirely as awful people.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
3,225
The Ocean
Hey, y'all--

Andrea doesn't have an Era account and just posted this over on our subreddit. I just got to a computer this afternoon and was able to respond, she just got to hers:

Hi everyone! I apologize for the delay in responding to these comments, but it’s been a hectic week to say the least. I’ve had time to reflect and I’d like to put forth this statement:

Earlier this week, Greg and I had a discussion on KFGD about recent news stories around Minecraft creator Notch and Youtube Content Creator PewdiePie. Some of you have expressed concern about statements we made, or didn’t make, during that discussion and I think it’s pertinent to follow-up with those concerns.

I’ve rewatched the show, and I understand the criticisms people had about our conversations. I regret that our discussion of this topic included unfounded or under-informed moments from me that sounded like they were condoning statements or posts that are hateful, racist, transphobic, anti-Semitic or bigoted.

I can see how my comments seem dismissive of a serious topic upon reflection, and I apologize. I vehemently reject any type of bigotry and those who invoke it. No amount of context explains away or justifies that behavior, and I’m sorry for implying it could. Of course it can’t.

I support people of all backgrounds, genders, sexualities, races, religions - and I reject those who seek to disparage, dismiss, or discriminate against their fellow humans, that includes Notch and Pewdiepie. Greg and I appreciate the constructive criticism from those who took the time out to show us where we fell short, and we commit to demonstrating through both our words and our actions going forward that we have no sympathy for and will not make excuses for those that bring bigotry into the world through their statements, actions, or incitements.

Sincerely, Andrea Rene
Andrea. Can we get an apology to those, y'know like the folks at Microsoft who were "doing this out of self interest to make themselves look good" to paraphrase the comments in the OP? Collectively, that's a company sure - but real people took a real stand against bigotry here, and you pooped on that hard.

It's nice that you had Greg post here as a proxy, but what about for the, idk, tens of thousands who will not see this apology. Will you make a point to bring this up on your next video? I hope so, because that would put actions to words, and make this a real apology.

Thank you.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,719
Of course.

I'm from the UK too and I'm still not going to call someone a cunt unironically. It's not on. But as you said, people will use language when they feel hurt, that's part and parcel of online discourse.

Personal attacks are wrong in this case and anything beyond the line should be moderated accordingly. Yes, Andrea's conduct has disappointed me but that's it. I have no right to cast the net to hurt her as a person because if that. That's disgusting and wrong.

Anyone using this as a way of pushing any misogyny should never be welcomed on this forum.

However using that as a shield to deflect legitimate criticism is a low tactic in my honest view. Especially when setting one community against another. Yes, there's issues with Era and moderation can be improved a lot but to use the few idiots to ignore a message of understandable frustration from the majority is wrong.
And I would agree, the original issues cannot be ignored because PDP and Notch are ultimately the focus here, and as an extension of that, how people respond to and talk about them.

i have liked your other posts on these last few pages, this specific one just rubbed me the wrong way because of the language used
And I get that, it was part of my overall point/thought-experiment in that post. I'm sure that kind of language rubbed Andrea the wrong way, and probably upset her, but guess what, when you defend Notch and PDP people are going to use some harsh language. I personally do still take note of using that word, and 9 times out of 10 purposefully just use it to describe men I think are assholes. Even although I am a Brit, it's not like I feel comfortable using that word towards women willy-nilly, given its history.

There is still a distinction between harsh language and personal smears on the level of a few posts in here.

edit: Just so it's clear, I'm not suggesting moderation couldn't or wouldn't act if some posters were saying really strong things, even if angry. I'm sure they might. I just wanted to take an example of some of the harshest language that can be used when someone is upset and still show, however problematic the language might be, it isn't always on the same level as certain personal smears/judgements of character or accusations of cheating/deceiving without evidence. Not that I think a woman should simply be reading people calling them the C-word when they're in the wrong and not having it hurt them.

I feel like I didn't do a good job of making my point in that original post without being unnecessarily graphic. Sorry for that. When I took a minute to see what you said to me it made more sense and made me think I myself made a bit of a mistake with that original post.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
2,695
3 things.

Greg's response was fantastic and I wish more people in the game industry had the guts to brave the Lions den this is Era.

After watching KF for a while now it's become obvious to me Andrea has a hard time admitting when she's wrong. She seems really stubborn. I still like her and enjoy her on the show but how stubborn she is becomes over obvious.

Finally I wish this thread was better. We can call people out without getting vile ourselves. If Era held itself to a higher standard on that type of shit we'd have more of a leg to stand on when calling people out in the first place.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,482
Finland
Excuse me. You were the one who posted that Andrea should fake it or play along for Greg's sake. That sounds absolutely terrible. Go back and read my post again before calling others out. Thank you.
Sorry, I didn't mean she should fake it. But try not to comment on how people here were being mean or unfair against her, because it gives ammo and excuses to wrong people. Exactly those people who should get the message that Greg and Andrea find the behaviour of Notch and PDP indefensible. And I found it problematic how she tagged Greg along on "wading through the mud". In hindsight, saying "she should have played along" is definitely a wrong term to use and doesn't accurately convey what I ment. She should have sucked it up or take it to the chin, would be better to say. And as I earlier said too when Greg first posted here with an apology, I rather want sincere apologies than carefully manufactured ones. When people started to poke holes in it because it started with loosely resembling "sorry that you're offended" type of apology.

I'll edit my original post a bit, to be more accurate on what I mean.

Ooof, not a good look. Not that ResetEra wouldn't have it's fair share of douchebags, this thread included. But when you're responding to legitimate criticism and apologizing. Don't then just right after turn yourself into victim, it really takes away from your apology a lot. It makes it seem you clarified and apologized just because you felt forced to, not because you sincerely understood your mistake and felt bad because of it. She could had atleast sucked it up for the sake of Greg and Kinda Funny and not get so defensive in front of people who already are saying she had nothing to apologize. Seems to be much easier for her to call people here as douchebags than Notch and PDP in the original discussion, come on now.

Edit: I also said before either of them had responded that if they think they didn't make a mistake, then they shouldn't apologize/clarify. So that "playing along" was definitely a failure in my own messaging. But as can be seen in those Reddit replies already, there's people saying this thread was entirely unreasonable and just mean. I wish we nor Andrea wouldn't give out that ammo. Hence I tried to call out her defensiveness and our hyperbole/agressivenes both. It's not me she really needs to convince of her being honest and sincere. I'm not hurt or harmed by the actions of PDP and Notch and I'm not someone who jumps on their defense either.
 
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Oct 26, 2017
2,737
Andrea. Can we get an apology to those, y'know like the folks at Microsoft who were "doing this out of self interest to make themselves look good" to paraphrase the comments in the OP? Collectively, that's a company sure - but real people took a real stand against bigotry here, and you pooped on that hard.
Yeah I thought that was a damn weird take.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,455
And I would agree, the original issues cannot be ignored because PDP and Notch are ultimately the focus here, and as an extension of that, how people respond to and talk about them.



And I get that, it was part of my overall point/thought-experiment in that post. I'm sure that kind of language rubbed Andrea the wrong way, and probably upset her, but guess what, when you defend Notch and PDP people are going to use some harsh language. I personally do still take note of using that word, and 9 times out of 10 purposefully just use it to describe men I think are assholes. Even although I am a Brit, it's not like I feel comfortable using that word towards women willy-nilly, given its history.

There is still a distinction between harsh language and personal smears on the level of a few posts in here.
Many don’t seem to be disputing this. It was established the 10th time it was said. One guy even apologized. Feels like beating a dead horse at this point.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,175
We tend to do that a lot here. Im not sure what the point is.
This is kind of my thought. They have both apologized, in a acceptable way. I'm not sure what some of the people on this forum think needs to happen to appease them.

In the real world I expect people to apologize and grow from the mistakes they make, I don't know why the internet thinks it needs to hold people to a different standard.
 
OP
OP
LebGuns
Oct 25, 2017
832
Someone said that, lol, I can't even help myself laugh at how over the top that is.

And yeah, I'll be the first to admit using satire or hyperbole can be a way to ridicule or mock someone who is deserving of criticism, but there is a time and place for it. Plus, you also have to be pretty "skilled" at using things like satire or you can just come across like an asshole.

I'll also assume a mass of posters were saying "that's one post in a 40-page topic!". Yeah, you're right, although maybe once we tally up all the posts being unreasonable it amounts to one whole page in forty, but do keep in mind how fragile everyone's ego can be. The handful of very vivid, abusive or hyperbolic comments can often seem like they're shouting at you versus all the genuine feedback and criticism. Welcome to being human and what social media has helped reinforce in us, pay attention to the trolls and over the top abuse/mean comments, forget all the good things or productive exchanges.

Also remember that this community self-policing, outwith mods banning outright mental posts, is also a collective form of self-reflection for Era. If we want as many people as possible seeing Era as acting in good faith to be a conduit of criticism and advice, then we need to challenge assholes in this community too. Not get overly defensive because we seen someone say "Era is being unfair". You know, there is some irony there. Andrea shouldn't be getting upset at mean comments towards her, but hold on while I get upset someone said Era is a bad community.

Ultimately, all of this is up to Andrea to handle better like Greg probably has, but as I also said just because Greg doesn't seem to have reacted to comments like he deserves a firing squad, doesn't mean inside he's not a little hurt by them. I'm pretty sure even a man who has grown up in internet culture can still get a little hurt or emotional at times.
I agree wholeheartedly with your post, especially about your comment on individuals self-policing. I read every page of this enormous thread as I’m the OP, and I’m sad to say that the terrible posts were large in number; I understand why Andrea felt the way she did.

I think we can criticize behaviors and shortcomings from influencers and ask to do better, but what we can’t do is ask them to change their personalities or who we are. Greg himself is a person more accepting of criticism and brushes off terrible things that were being said, but Andrea isn’t that type of person. Both still reflected on their mistakes, apologized, and repudiated hatred, bigotry, Notch and PDP.

This is what we were seeking, and this is unequivocally what we got. We can’t be seeking people change who they are and how they accept criticism or let go of terrible things said online (not that you in particular were asking this, but just in general).
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,514
3 things.

Greg's response was fantastic and I wish more people in the game industry had the guts to brave the Lions den this is Era.

After watching KF for a while now it's become obvious to me Andrea has a hard time admitting when she's wrong. She seems really stubborn. I still like her and enjoy her on the show but how stubborn she is becomes over obvious.

Finally I wish this thread was better. We can call people out without getting vile ourselves. If Era held itself to a higher standard on that type of shit we'd have more of a leg to stand on when calling people out in the first place.
Definitely.

There's an element of Era that revels in violent imagery and rhetoric as a response to injustice and it goes against the fight against bigotry and intolerance should be.

This thread is no exception. Hate begets hate, I'm afraid.
 
Oct 25, 2017
70
And seeing Greg's statements taking ownership of his mistakes, I'm more than willing to apologize for what I said as well.
When I quoted any of the people I have, I apologize if anyone took that as an attack on any of your character. I was merely pointing out examples of the things that were said in this thread. I understand people were angry and rightfully so. They made some irresponsible and ignorant comments and have since apologized for them. It sounds corny but I'm glad that you, me, or anyone in this thread can have some self-reflection of things that were said in the heat of the moment. We can all be better in having productive conversation with each other, myself included.
 
Oct 25, 2017
817
Finally I wish this thread was better. We can call people out without getting vile ourselves. If Era held itself to a higher standard on that type of shit we'd have more of a leg to stand on when calling people out in the first place.
That's my biggest problem currently with era. I'm happy that we are calling people out on their bullshit, but I think we could do it better.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,160
when you browse 40+ pages of men
Honestly, some men especially in this topic
Why are you trying to turn this into something it's not? I'm sure that a lot of women have posted in this thread and that a lot more would have issues with her words. If Andrea Rene were a men the response to her shitty actions would have been the same. People in here had no problem calling out Greg. If anything people focused more on Greg than they should have. So stop it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,691
Long Island
Greg wasn't abused i don't think?
If she posted a sincere apology i very much doubt anyone would've "abused" her

What does it mean to have someone else post an apology for you and then shittalk the place/people you just apologized on/to on another board ?

It's not like she has a history of either playing dumb, disappearing or straight up being hostile to people daring to criticize her

Cultism can only go so far
How I feel about Andrea Renee is this.
For some reason, she is left out of the whole "respect woman in the industry" mentality here.
Sure she is brash, has an attitude and sometimes corporate worships (but that can stem from being married to someone who works for Sony) but that's just her personality. I'm not going to criticize her for not being the perfect mouth piece to my morals and opinions. Let her do her.
Andrea. Can we get an apology to those, y'know like the folks at Microsoft who were "doing this out of self interest to make themselves look good" to paraphrase the comments in the OP? Collectively, that's a company sure - but real people took a real stand against bigotry here, and you pooped on that hard.

It's nice that you had Greg post here as a proxy, but what about for the, idk, tens of thousands who will not see this apology. Will you make a point to bring this up on your next video? I hope so, because that would put actions to words, and make this a real apology.

Thank you.
it was only a problem here, that's why they apologized here. Those tens of thousands you speak of don't know this went down. Shit when I listened to it that day I furrowed my eyebrows a few times but I didn't know it would transform to this.

Let their future shows dictate the outcome.

End of the day, this thread would be very hostile to her if she would post here. Not everyone but some would definitely say some foul shit to her thinking they are doing something noble because people have zero chill. I'm sure there are low count posters here who see this as a free pass to attack a woman in gaming.

Idk, I'm not down with people telling others what to do, it's not sincere then. Let her come to that conclusion on her own and it will mean more. If she doesn't do it then don't listen to her episodes.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,719
Why are you trying to turn this into something it's not? I'm sure that a lot of women have posted in this thread and that a lot more would have issues with her words. If Andrea Rene were a men the response to her shitty actions would have been the same. People in here had no problem calling out Greg. If anything people focused more on Greg than they should have. So stop it.
Because we're talking about the games industry and whether you like it or not there can often be a (justifiable) stigma or fear for women when engaging with angry men. I didn't say there weren't women in this topic, but let's not do tit for tat on counting up the profiles that say male. You know as well as I do like 90%+ of this topic is probably men. When you've got shit being said about you and it's coming from men, it's easy to internalize that as something to avoid/stay away from. Even if the vast majority have good points. Hence why the men with good points need to police the community to challenge the men that don't.

I already said I think Andrea should have came to Era, but I'm not going to suggest I am wrong in following that up by stating why I think she might have chosen not to. Unless you want to suggest to me it was women saying some of the worst things in this topic, because you know what, I bet you it wasn't!
 
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Oct 25, 2017
1,216
Seattle
Honestly, my biggest take away from this is video games needs way more minority driven content. Privilege is trash and is no excuse to be uneducated when this is literally your job.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,160
saying terrible things like “firing squad is the only option”
That was a obvious sarcastic post that more likely than not was attacking the people criticizing Greg and Andrea. Context matters.

Honestly, Rene's view of this thread seems as informed as her take on Notch and PDP. As in not at all.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,781
Detroit, MI
That's privilege, and frankly, it's not one I've had to think about until this week.
I'm glad you took the time to consider it. I just assume folks like you (influential white dudes) won't stop to consider, because you don't have to.
I appreciate you doing this.
Please take more care with this type of stuff in the future.

I'm still a fan, though things like this make me uneasy. I accept your apology.

I read Andrea's response, and given exactly what she said before, it comes off as either she doesn't quite understand the issue fully, or she just doesn't want to be bothered with this any longer.
I hope she's being sincere.

Honestly, my biggest take away from this is video games needs way more minority driven content. Privilege is trash and is no excuse to be uneducated when this is literally your job.
Bruh, I wish.
I might have even tried to be in games media myself if I wasn't so convinced as a teenager that people of color just don't get invited into stuff like that.
It'd be good for someone else who is still at a young age where it's so easy not to believe in themselves.....that and it'd be cool to see someone like myself, or just hear different perspectives.

It's why I like Waypoint (though sometimes their focus goes out of my interests).

I remember having a thread a year ago where someone was like "name black people in games media" and we all said the same few names.
 
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Oct 28, 2017
443
Minneapolis
Man, these two stepped up in a timely clear way that wasn’t just the thoughtless PR-written “apologies” we routinely get from public personalities. And so many of you still wanna tear then down for not going even further. I had criticisms that I earlier posted way way back about this, but also said Greg always struck me as being a stand-up dude who LIKE ALL OF US has blind spots and *gasp* isn’t perfect. Glad to have that vibe supported.

My whole life and career is basically advocating for youth in every variety you could come up with. It’s my life’s work. But I was a dumbass 20-year old boy once with every privilege possible except for the whole gay thing. I had to learn everything else and gradually shed all the systemic racism and classism that had seeped into my upbringing. I’d argue it was easier to relate because I dealt with (still deal with) all kinds of shame and homophobia isssues due to closet for a decade. I still don’t know what it’s like to, say, be a black working class woman. Closet sucks, but it’s not as out front in every situation as race or gender would be.

All people can do is try and learn and be better. You can’t just shed all that baggage overnight, no matter how much you want to.

Think I might patreon KF and what’s good for a month to show some respect for stepping up and being adults.
 
Dec 7, 2017
806
Andrea Rene has replied to some comments on the kindafunny reddit.




She is replying to a comment, you can read the comment she is replying to and other comments she made here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/kindafunny...andrea_are_currently_getting_dragged/emd9p4j/
I was almost willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, but the I read this.

There will be assholes and people who go a bit further than they should, but when you dismiss hateful and dehumanizing twitter posts as wacky and taken out of context, you better believe that the uproar caused by that is justified.

It also burns my blood that there is a continual need for the people who suffer from oppression to teach "allies". I'm no ones teacher. True allies seeks to continuously educate themselves.

Greg came in and when confronted with the fact that "be better to each other" was bullshit, asked someone what statement might work better. That's not someone else's job, that's his.

I appreciate his, what I hope is, sincerity. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but Andrea's "apology" is bullshit. A rose by any other name is still a rose and shit no matter how elegantly it is written is still shit.
 
Oct 27, 2017
8,433
That was a obvious sarcastic post that more likely than not was attacking the people criticizing Greg and Andrea. Context matters.

Honestly, Rene's view of this thread seems as informed as her take on Notch and PDP. As in not at all.
Context matters, but is no replacement for someone's direct feelings towards rhetoric. Please find my post from a few hours ago in this thread and read it. Thank you.
 

labx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,026
Medellín, Colombia
Never been a fan of Andrea or Greg, but I'm glad that I have read their responses. I must apologize myself to be so hard with gameovergreggy. Yes people make mistakes, we all are flawed. And is a cool thing that you can acknowledge that and "be better", thanks for taking your time you make us now that actually be can be better, by starting to recognize our own flaws. I want to apologize too, my dude. Being in the eye of the storm isn't cool. Being constantly be constantly evaluated must not be an awesome feeling neither. The same goes to Andrea and please tell here that not all ERA is a pile of ole douchebags that want to watch the world burn.

10k did a better job. To emphasize


What a roller coaster. Respect to Greg and Andrea for responding and communicating clearly. It's so much better then being silent or putting out generic PR statements.

Mistakes were made. Be better. Learn from it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,205
Nah, it's pretty straight forward. If you claim to want to learn from your mistakes and take feedback, then you have to actually seek opinion and information.

People are going to take their cheap shots and post their bullshit, but you have filter that shit if you truly want to find valid feedback that you can use. Keep in mind, I'm not saying people posting attacks and bullshit are not accountable. No, that shit shouldn't be tolerated.

But we're talking about the wider internet here. There is always someone talking shit on a daily basis per second. I can post a video of me holding a cat on YouTube and I'll get a handful of bullshit comments for no reason.
Expecting everyone to filter out negative comments with no issue is somewhat unrealistic. Earlier someone said this about Andrea:
Didn’t Greg take the lesson to heart?
This issue with this, DigitalOP (and you to Ramjag), is that not everyone deals with criticism the same way. This is especially true when that criticism is full of toxicity. It’s ok to handle criticism differently than others. Some people can find the constructive bits in a sea of toxicity while others can’t help but focus on the insults. It’s not really fair of us to say that Andrea should just wade through the trash when there were people on this site calling her the c word. That can be a particularly strong insult to women (and I’ve never liked how casually it’s used around here).

DigitalOP, you said that you could post a video on YouTube about cats and get a bunch of bullshit comments for no reason. You’re right, but there’s no excuse for that. Just because toxicity exists doesn’t make it ok. Let’s not handwave it away just because it’s the wider internet as if that makes it ok. YouTubers often say that when they read their comments it’s the toxic ones which stick out most.

For what it’s worth Andrea did apologize despite the toxicity, and it seems like she understands what she did wrong. I have never really been a fan of getting nit picky about the particulars of an apology to make it come across as not good enough, and I am especially not a fan when it involves excusing toxic behavior. If we are going to be upset that Andrea doesn’t like being insulted here then I’m not really sure what to say.
 
Nov 7, 2017
7,882
gameovergreggy Thank you for coming back for the second post. I am glad you both saw this as a moment do reflect on how you adress these really serious topics and your own privilege within the Industry.
 
Oct 28, 2017
81
I'm not going to criticize her for not being the perfect mouth piece to my morals and opinions. Let her do her.
Honestly, my biggest take away from this is video games needs way more minority driven content. Privilege is trash and is no excuse to be uneducated when this is literally your job.
All people can do is try and learn and be better. You can’t just shed all that baggage overnight, no matter how much you want to.
My personal faith in humanity restored. Thanks Internet strangers!
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,503
Hey, LebGuns--

I'm sorry that you walked away from this episode thinking that I didn't take a stand on this. I'd hope that my past efforts on all of these issues would speak to my stance on them, but if they haven't, let me be clear: fuck being a bigot.

In the episode, I say never say the N-word, I say that Notch seems like an asshole, and I echo the message I've said on so many shows of "be better to each other." If that wasn't clear, I missed the mark and failed at being the man I want to be. End of story.

The conversation I was trying to have Monday wasn't “Why does the internet got to be so complicated when people get successful?” in regards to people who use the n-word. Fuck that. That's simple. It was more "How is this a lesson people have to learn in 2019?"

But again, that didn't ring true to you. I'm sorry.

I hope you know how much your comments mean to me. That goes for everyone here. Please, don't hesitate to tag me in posts about my content or ask me questions online. Talking to you is what my career is based on -- it's why I used You're Wrong (the live submission section of Kinda Funny Games Daily) in this episode to get the input from viewers about the side of the story I was missing.

I don't know it all. I try not to act like I know it all, but I don't mean for that to come off as if I don't care about or shrug at bigotry.
Greg
I appreciate that you and Andrea took the time and effort to post your responses on this thread. I understand that that can be daunting thing to do, specially with an atmosphere like this thread has.

While I haven't been a religious viewer of Kindafunnygame's content, I have been subscribed for a long time and enjoyed some of your content, I appreciate the work you and your crew put into it but I feel like the video that led to this thread was a last-straw for me as a person who viewed and, in a small way, supported your content.

I understand that it can be a tough balancing act trying to report accurately on news and trying not to upset corporations, or individuals, that you might have a professional relationship with but I feel that today, more than ever, having editorial integrity is of immense importance and frankly that is something that I find is lacking in the content you produce. It will take actions, not clarifications or apologies to demonstrate your integrity and I hope you are able to improve yourself and your content as a result of this scenario, but in the meantime, you have lost my support as a viewer.

We can not be tolerant towards intolerance and there are other issues in the gaming industry in which we either stand together on the same page or we work towards the detriment of something we all love. Too often I find you don't take a stance, regardless of whether it's one I agree with or not. I appreciate looking at issues from more than a single perspective and I think it's important we don't devolve all of our gaming comentators into a single echo-chamber, but once the facts are laid out across a table it's important to take a stance.

I hope that you do, whether or not I agree with it. Until that day, thank you for all the content and have a nice day.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
2,255
Edinburgh, UK
If people here want to try out a podcast that is not afraid to talk about politics, and tries to be inclusive in their views without overthinking games too much (which I think Waypoint is guilty of) try Podquisition. It's one of my favourites, exactly because those people are sensible and kind, but are not afraid to go into the real social issues when needed and criticise what is wrong out there.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,160
Context matters, but is no replacement for someone's direct feelings towards rhetoric. Please find my post from a few hours ago in this thread and read it. Thank you.
I had read your post the first time around but i decided to read it again.

Your own post above is largely conspiracy theory-level. You have no personal insight into Greg's or Andrea's timeline how they got from the gamescast to here and now. Yet that didn't stop you, or others, from crafting such narratives.
The exact same thing can be said of the myriad of posts defending both Greg and Andrea's actions. They are the only ones who know the inside of their heads, so you can also direct this rhetoric to all the posters who defended their honesty throughout the thread.

But this is what concerns me about some of the contents of threads like this: I wonder how many more people have left this forum for good just this week, never to return, because of the way some chose to address the issue here.
The vast majority of posters who posted their discontent were not disrespectful. For those who were you have a simple solution. You are a mod, are you not? Those who cross the line can get warned or banned.

But here's how this post of yours can come across:

'Era is losing business over those minorities being too harsh on people who defend bigots.'

I'm sure that's not what you mean though.

This thread was intended to highlight a conversation full of uninformed insensitivity, and make a plea for better judgement. It certainly was not intended to be the "Andrea is completely terrible" thread. Yet there were enough terrible posts about Andrea in this thread to make her, or anyone, not want to come to this forum ever again.
I will not defend those who went too far and resorted to personal insults. I also don't follow KF's stuff so i have no great insight into these people. But Andrea was terrible in this particular instance. And judging by her Reddit posts, she has learned little and continues to be terrible.

This thread was mostly on track until those who didn't agree with the criticism in the first place found a way to get on their habitual high horses and started painting all the critics with the same brush so they could keep defending the funny people on the tubes. And now we're back to the usual fare: minorities being shit on and then being told to mind their manners.
 
Apr 9, 2018
453
To me, the problem with Greg, and KindaFunny in general, is that they bend over backwards to not offend anyone. While they do make overtures about making "critical" statements, the critiques they provide are almost always couched in an apologetic sort of way. The whole goal appears to be to not piss off anyone in the video game industry. While it works for them in terms of their friendships with those in the industry, I would really love to see them take a stronger stand on certain things and not apologize for taking those stands. Greg does go out of his way to be very critical of Sony and overly supportive of Microsoft sometimes, but I believe that to be an attempt to show that he is not biased in favor of PlayStation. Even when he does that, it is still always apologetic, though. I find that often times they are just talking out of their asses with with comments and positions that sometimes don't appear to be coming from people with "industry insider" knowledge. Compare this to the guys on EZA, when they have in-depth discussions about issues in the video game industry. Honestly, even Beyond on IGN has gotten really good at discussions under the helm of Jonathon Dornbush, who I think is done a great job with that podcast.

I don't want to bash Greg and KindaFunny too hard, as I listen to them every single week without fail. But, I think that their general attitude of oftentimes trying to be "Switzerland" leads to discussions like the one in this thread.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,455
Expecting everyone to filter out negative comments with no issue is somewhat unrealistic. Earlier someone said this about Andrea:

This issue with this, DigitalOP (and you to Ramjag), is that not everyone deals with criticism the same way. This is especially true when that criticism is full of toxicity. It’s ok to handle criticism differently than others. Some people can find the constructive bits in a sea of toxicity while others can’t help but focus on the insults. It’s not really fair of us to say that Andrea should just wade through the trash when there were people on this site calling her the c word. That can be a particularly strong insult to women (and I’ve never liked how casually it’s used around here).

DigitalOP, you said that you could post a video on YouTube about cats and get a bunch of bullshit comments for no reason. You’re right, but there’s no excuse for that. Just because toxicity exists doesn’t make it ok. Let’s not handwave it away just because it’s the wider internet as if that makes it ok. YouTubers often say that when they read their comments it’s the toxic ones which stick out most.

For what it’s worth Andrea did apologize despite the toxicity, and it seems like she understands what she did wrong. I have never really been a fan of getting nit picky about the particulars of an apology to make it come across as not good enough, and I am especially not a fan when it involves excusing toxic behavior. If we are going to be upset that Andrea doesn’t like being insulted here then I’m not really sure what to say.
And not everyone deals with daily bigotry the same way. In either case, the most extreme opinion I’ve made on the event was that Greg should have refrained from talking about something he self-admittedly didn’t know much about. I didn’t complain about his first apology, his second nor Andrea’s either. I don’t care if either of them post here or not, but I did appreciate what was said. I don’t think I’m being that unfair in that regard.

In either case, I’d rather not get into a bunch of hypothetical talk about how someone may or may not handle a situation if we’re going to ignore the flip side of that, especially one where greg handled it with absolute grace anyhow. Both of them showed that they can respond to the matter just fine without people trying to guess their personal thoughts and motivations. Not really interested in such a wishy washy discussion tbh. Your personal exploration through the minds of these two is better left for someone else.

I had read your post the first time around but i decided to read it again.



The exact same thing can be said of the myriad of posts defending both Greg and Andrea's actions. They are the only ones who know the inside of their heads, so you can also direct this rhetoric to all the posters who defended their honesty throughout the thread.



The vast majority of posters who posted their discontent were not disrespectful. For those who were you have a simple solution. You are a mod, are you not? Those who cross the line can get warned or banned.

But here's how this post of yours can come across:

'Era is losing business over those minorities being too harsh on people who defend bigots.'

I'm sure that's not what you mean though.



I will not defend those who went too far and resorted to personal insults. I also don't follow KF's stuff so i have no great insight into these people. But Andrea was terrible in this particular instance. And judging by her Reddit posts, she has learned little and continues to be terrible.

This thread was mostly on track until those who didn't agree with the criticism in the first place found a way to get on their habitual high horses and started painting all the critics with the same brush so they could keep defending the funny people on the tubes. And now we're back to the usual fare: minorities being shit on and then being told to mind their manners.
You make some great points and I also got that vibe when it was mentioned that people are leaving the forum. I don’t think that was his intention, but your final sentences about sums up my feelings. I went to bed last night and everyone was pretty cool about the apology. Wake up and we’ve got a mod going on about people leaving the forum and and people still harping on the scumbag comments while at the same time implying others should be able to move on. Every one of those posters who made negative comments could apologize now and we’d still get jokers whose sole purpose is to come in and talk about how bad era is.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
2,781
Detroit, MI
Saw Andrea's comments on reddit.



Andrea Rene has replied to some comments on the kindafunny reddit.




She is replying to a comment, you can read the comment she is replying to and other comments she made here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/kindafunny...andrea_are_currently_getting_dragged/emd9p4j/

The whole "of course I don't support shitty people" thing is a load of bullshit.
If I had a dollar for the amount of times I've heard white folk tell me that.

Anybody could say that. "Of course" acts like it's obvious and we should just assume she's always in the right, as if it's asking to much to always explicitly not support shitty people.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
2,367
Jun 1, 2018
971
Put yourself in her position as someone that doesn't post here and go read the first few pages. Would that shit not fucking infuriate you? Particularly when you know that's not who you're yet people are seemingly confident that it is.
Shes coming here to make amends and then she openly trashtalks resetera on Reddit, and she apparently dislikes the forum too much to make an account here?
Her apology stinks.

Ive been supporting KF on Twitch and on Patreon so Im not coming at her as a hater of kinda Funny but as a big supporter.

Of course I would be sad to see anyone trashtalk me on a forum but she did defend PDP and Notch and that deserves to be criticized. The vast majority of users here did not make inaproriate comments towards her and she needs to be able to seperate those few who did from the rest.
 
OP
OP
LebGuns
Oct 25, 2017
832
That was a obvious sarcastic post that more likely than not was attacking the people criticizing Greg and Andrea. Context matters.

Honestly, Rene's view of this thread seems as informed as her take on Notch and PDP. As in not at all.
There were at least 3 posts saying her husband should dump her because he can do so much better. We cannot excuse such comments, and especially use the same “out of context” excuse we criticized Andrea for using.
 
Oct 25, 2017
27,436
Ugh these comments are not good. They kind of contradict her apology and makes me question how sincere the apology was in the first place.
imagine that

it wasn't even a good apology in the first place

people who are still open to changing their behavior don't spout conspiracy theories unprompted to cape for white supremacists and transphobes
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,719
I had read your post the first time around but i decided to read it again.



The exact same thing can be said of the myriad of posts defending both Greg and Andrea's actions. They are the only ones who know the inside of their heads, so you can also direct this rhetoric to all the posters who defended their honesty throughout the thread.



The vast majority of posters who posted their discontent were not disrespectful. For those who were you have a simple solution. You are a mod, are you not? Those who cross the line can get warned or banned.

But here's how this post of yours can come across:

'Era is losing business over those minorities being too harsh on people who defend bigots.'

I'm sure that's not what you mean though.



I will not defend those who went too far and resorted to personal insults. I also don't follow KF's stuff so i have no great insight into these people. But Andrea was terrible in this particular instance. And judging by her Reddit posts, she has learned little and continues to be terrible.

This thread was mostly on track until those who didn't agree with the criticism in the first place found a way to get on their habitual high horses and started painting all the critics with the same brush so they could keep defending the funny people on the tubes. And now we're back to the usual fare: minorities being shit on and then being told to mind their manners.
Saenima, if you want to cut back on the rhetoric and accusations in this topic that are ungrounded, then it doesn't really help your point to imply a moderator only gives a shit about "Era losing business" before posting your "get out of jail" card which amounts to little more than "just joking".

You do realize that is precisely the issue with the posters who say shit like "Your partner can do better" then maybe try and follow up with "But I was just joking cause I'm angry".

"Minding your manners" doesn't mean refraining from expressing your emotions, it should mean not posting nonsense that does little more than to put you in a position of unjustifiably hurting someone else. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that jazz. Take the person who has hurt you and at the initial point of entry do the best you can to get them to see the errors in their way... If they appear receptive.

Wonderment's post was actually pretty reasonable, so I'm not entirely sure how it's going to help your disapproval of parts of that post to engage in the kinds of unhelpful rhetoric that have pages of arguing currently going on.

Some of us do have to try and do a bit better than we are, especially if Resetera, as somewhat of a collective, is not to be criticised (like some posts in this topic are suggesting they cannot believe Andrea dared to say some negative things about this forum). Resetera can only strive to be that sort of "perfection" if Resetera can conduct itself in a way that allows the community to challenge itself. We can't just rely on "Hey mods, just ban everything".
 
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Oct 25, 2017
9,160
There were at least 3 posts saying her husband should dump her because he can do so much better. We cannot excuse such comments, and especially use the same “out of context” excuse we criticized Andrea for using.
And those posts suck and shouldn't be excused. The example you used earlier was bad though.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,781
Detroit, MI
Shes coming here to make amends and then she openly trashtalks resetera on Reddit, and she apparently dislikes the forum too much to make an account here?
Her apology stinks.

Ive been supporting KF on Twitch and on Patreon so Im not coming at her as a hater of kinda Funny but as a big supporter.

Of course I would be sad to see anyone trashtalk me on a forum but she did defend PDP and Notch and that deserves to be criticized. The vast majority of users
here did not make inaproriate comments towards her and she needs to be able to seperate those few who did from the rest.
She can bash the forum all she wants. The forum is imperfect, at times uncivil, and not any one person. We should take no offense at that.
Her doing right after she apologizes just makes her seem disingenuous as fuck, though.
It's like she's trying to write this whole thing off as just some thread being toxic, and there being no real issue, other than a slight misunderstanding of whether or not she supports people being shitty.

I've been a backer since it started, and only once before did I consider stopping (a week before Colin left he was saying some ignorant ass shit on the PS show and Greg didnt say anything), and now I am again.

There were at least 3 posts saying her husband should dump her because he can do so much better. We cannot excuse such comments, and especially use the same “out of context” excuse we criticized Andrea for using.
Yeah, those folks suck.
 
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