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Greg Miller and Andrea Rene handwave Notch and PewDiePie racist, transphobic and anti-semitic behaviour (UP: GM and AR respond; see threadmarks)

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Nov 3, 2017
119
"Poor persecuted white person... All they did was handwave away transphobia, homophobia and white supremacy. She even apologized that YOU got offended without even showing that it humbled her. That means she is strong." *Insert leave Brittany alone gif*
I dont't know...who says that?? You don't have to love the woman. I sure don't (she always seemed a bit too superficial for my taste) but this topic just seems to be...over?

She made some uniformed remarks, got found out and apologized. What is there to still be angry about? Because the tone of her apology does not meet your lofty standards? Do you realize just how extreme this is? Do we really have to absolutely obliberate everyone who is not completly morally perfect?

Why are you all so damn angry? And why waste all this energy and time on insignifiant people like this?
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,166
Well the thread will obviously keep going if one apologize is bullshit and is clearly undermined by the apologizer’s comments on reddit.

I don’t understand why people have difficulty understanding this.
I read her comments, what did she say that undermines her apology in your opinion? Cause shes completely right, this thread has been nothing but a hate filled circlejerk for 95% of the posts. Would you want to interact with people who are calling you a cunt? Would you want to interact with people saying you should lose your job? I doubt it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
27,436
I read her comments, what did she say that undermines her apology in your opinion? Cause shes completely right, this thread has been nothing but a hate filled circlejerk for 95% of the posts. Would you want to interact with people who are calling you a cunt? Would you want to interact with people saying you should lose your job? I doubt it.
The whole situation doesn't exist in a vacuum and she just happens to be behaving in the same way. pewdiepie does when people call him out for saying the N word or "death to all Jews".

I'm sure this is different tho.
 
Oct 25, 2017
27,436
Not enough for you maybe but let her appearances going forward be a indicator of how sorry she is.
Both the apology and the original conspiracy theories are bad enough that I'm not willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. If she changes on her own then we can start talking, but considering she went back on her non-apology quicker than Rosanne I kind of doubt it personally.
 
Jun 1, 2018
971
I read her comments, what did she say that undermines her apology in your opinion? Cause shes completely right, this thread has been nothing but a hate filled circlejerk for 95% of the posts. Would you want to interact with people who are calling you a cunt? Would you want to interact with people saying you should lose your job? I doubt it.
95% of the posts being hatefull personal attacks? What?
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,743
Limburg
I read her comments, what did she say that undermines her apology in your opinion? Cause shes completely right, this thread has been nothing but a hate filled circlejerk for 95% of the posts. Would you want to interact with people who are calling you a cunt? Would you want to interact with people saying you should lose your job? I doubt it.
You sure you want to throw around numbers like that? Maybe dial it back a bit because this thread has had plenty of reasoned calm critiques in the mix. 95%? Let’s not be hyperbolic m8. So some people in the thread were rude, ok, that’s wrong. But it certainly wasn’t 95% of the thread or ERA HIVEMIND(tm).
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,804
I'm glad to see both of them apologized because I REALLY wasn't expecting it from either of them. I'm so used to the gaming community being defensive when called out on this kind of thing. Good on them, maybe I'll check out their show since I know I wont be supporting terrible people.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,691
Long Island
Both the apology and the original conspiracy theories are bad enough that I'm not willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. If she changes on her own then we can start talking, but considering she went back on her non-apology quicker than Rosanne I kind of doubt it personally.
Because she called out people who were acting like jerks? There was plenty of valid criticism in this thread. The people that acted, frankly like idiots will never be satisfied.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,160
Make no mistake, these tone policing posters know exactly what they are doing. It's not a coincidence that every thread on these subjects ends up as a meta-discussion that leads nowhere. It's a diversion tactic and a very effective one at that.
Exactly. And after a while we can even guess which posters will come in a thread to do it before they even arrive. It's all transparent as fuck.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,843
The whole situation doesn't exist in a vacuum and she just happens to be behaving in the same way. pewdiepie does when people call him out for saying the N word or "death to all Jews".

I'm sure this is different tho.
I think this is an important point as well. Andrea talked about how PewDiePie is crucified for anything he does. PewDiePie paid people to hold up a sign saying "Death to Jews" on a stream, and posted an apology video that quickly swerved from an apology to an attack against his critics where he flipped off the camera. He said his apology and then immediately shifted blame to his critics and demonstrated how he didn't actually view himself as responsible for the situation. Andrea, after sharing that same narrative, posted an apology followed by attacks against her critics.

I do think there's stuff to be criticized in this thread, but it's an easy parallel to see.
 
Nov 3, 2017
119
Exactly. And after a while we can even guess which posters will come in a thread to do it before they even arrive. It's all transparent as fuck.
Yeah, this is a totally normal thought process....

My god! People, I get that your country is in a bad place and I feel for you. But not everyone who is disagreeing with you is an agent of the far right scum, that is ruining your country.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,094
We’re still going, huh? Some of her Reddit posts are unfortunate but I thought her apology, and especially Greg’s, were very good and felt satisfied.

Did any of this was mentioned in today’s Kinda Funny Games Daily or the Gamescast?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,455
Yeah, this is a totally normal thought process....

My god! People, I get that your country is in a bad place and I feel for you. But not everyone who is disagreeing with you is an agent of the far right scum, that is ruining your country.
You made quite a leap between what he said and what you came up with.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,160
Yeah, this is a totally normal thought process....

My god! People, I get that your country is in a bad place and I feel for you. But not everyone who is disagreeing with you is an agent of the far right scum, that is ruining your country.
What is my country?

I'll give you a hint. It has a socialist government.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,808
We’re still going, huh? Some of her Reddit posts are unfortunate but I thought her apology, and especially Greg’s, were very good and felt satisfied.

Did any of this was mentioned in today’s Kinda Funny Games Daily or the Gamescast?
Not sure about Gamescast (it was recorded before most of Greg's posts last night), but KFGD isn't being filmed / aired for another 22 minutes from now. Greg and Tim will be on it, so it may be brought up.
 
Oct 25, 2017
27,436
I think this is an important point as well. Andrea talked about how PewDiePie is crucified for anything he does. PewDiePie paid people to hold up a sign saying "Death to Jews" on a stream, and posted an apology video that quickly swerved from an apology to an attack against his critics where he flipped off the camera. He said his apology and then immediately shifted blame to his critics and demonstrated how he didn't actually view himself as responsible for the situation. Andrea, after sharing that same narrative, posted an apology followed by attacks against her critics.

I do think there's stuff to be criticized in this thread, but it's an easy parallel to see.
Also when Rosanne apologized and then attacked a journalist with a racist meme within the hour

I don't even think there's that much overreaction going on here honestly. Like I was harsher on Greg before he made his apology, but that was before the apology. I don't think harsh criticisms of Andrea are undeserved, outside of a few ridiculous posts. A few ridiculous posts that I haven't even seen but I assume exist because people won't stop talking about.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,094
I read her comments, what did she say that undermines her apology in your opinion? Cause shes completely right, this thread has been nothing but a hate filled circlejerk for 95% of the posts. Would you want to interact with people who are calling you a cunt? Would you want to interact with people saying you should lose your job? I doubt it.
So you think those assholes should just be allowed to be assholes? Strike 3 because of that? She didn't paint the whole forum as bad, that's just the way you decided to interpret it. She made it very clear it was worth it to wade through the mud to reach out to the community. She apologized, it's over unless she fucks up again in the future.
Agreed. She apologized (she even called out Notch and PDP specifically) and that’s what counts. She doesn’t have to like “us” for that apology to count.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,691
Long Island
I believe the apology itself is insufficient in the first place. The reddit stuff is strike 3.
So you think those assholes should just be allowed to be assholes? Strike 3 because of that? She didn't paint the whole forum as bad, that's just the way you decided to interpret it. She made it very clear it was worth it to wade through the mud to reach out to the community. She apologized, it's over unless she fucks up again in the future.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,160
A few ridiculous posts that I haven't even seen but I assume exist because people won't stop talking about.
After reading this i went looking for instances of the word c*** being said. These were the first two:

Man, that racist cunt and his nazi cuntery is really wacky, huh
Here's one takeaway from this to think about. Andrea has been called a cunt in this topic quite a number of times.
Need i say more?
 
Oct 25, 2017
27,436
So you think those assholes should just be allowed to be assholes? Strike 3 because of that? She didn't paint the whole forum as bad, that's just the way you decided to interpret it. She made it very clear it was worth it to wade through the mud to reach out to the community. She apologized, it's over unless she fucks up again in the future.
I don't really care about those people. It seems like a deflection tactic to focus on it so much honestly.

And again I don't think she apologized.
 
Oct 28, 2017
11,735
I read her comments, what did she say that undermines her apology in your opinion? Cause shes completely right, this thread has been nothing but a hate filled circlejerk for 95% of the posts. Would you want to interact with people who are calling you a cunt? Would you want to interact with people saying you should lose your job? I doubt it.
This is the type of distortion that needs to be called out and its incredibly fucked up that anyone would come in here and say this thread is 95% of a hate filled circle jerk. 95% of posts are not calling her a cunt, 95% of posts are not calling for her job. Stop trying to undermine the conversation being had by turning it into something its not.
 
Dec 27, 2017
1,084
Honestly, my biggest take away from this is video games needs way more minority driven content. Privilege is trash and is no excuse to be uneducated when this is literally your job.
Absolutely.

Most of the unhelpful rhetoric has been against the people who were rightfully appalled at the handwaving of white supremacy. This thread is chock full of tone policing, of which you have been one of the largest instigators as of late. Look at where we are after 2300 posts. This whole conversation is now on whether the minorities are being too mean to the white lady who follows and defends white supremacists. We always end up here.
Too accurate, unfortunately.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,719
After reading this i went looking for instances of the word c*** being said. These were the first two:

Need i say more?
I was going off what someone else said, but fair enough if you've gone through every page and people weren't using multiple uses of the C word I'll retract that statement and apologise. I still think the overall post was an okay exchange with someone highlighting how I admit I see a difference between angry people expressing themselves and when that tips into personalized insults/abuse.

There are still other examples of people being out of line, specifically the comments on her partner.

I'm giving you this response to apologise for stating the C-word had been used, but I'm not carrying on anymore tit for tat with you. As I said I'll simply wait now and see what comes next, as in, giving both of them some time to put their apologies into action.
 
Oct 30, 2017
535
Why are you all so damn angry? And why waste all this energy and time on insignifiant people like this?
So says the person responding in a forum to everyone he/she disagrees with.

As to why I'm angry? I grew up in an area that is not too friendly to any of the minority groups she handwaved and I've seen first hand what handwaving actually does.

As for what apology I'd accept. That's simple. A real one. Don't be disingenuous equating a humble apology to bowing down. Apologize to everyone, not just people who didn't ridicule you (which I'm willing to be consisted of the people affected by this banter).
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,205
I don't consider it an apology when it places more blame on us for allegedly misrepresenting her words and then contradicts herself later on a different website.

It's three things:
1. She was actively spouting conspiracy theories to support white supremacists and transphobes unprompted. This isn't a simple "I was trying not to dive into politics and said something a little problematic".
2. Her apology is not sincere and doesn't address the actual problem. It's a textbook non-apology.
3. She contradicted her own apology on reddit.

#3 can be explained by her being upset about the dog pile. #1 and #2 cannot. #1 happened before it!

So excuse me for not pretending it's a sincere apology, or for thinking she doesn't deserve to have a platform at this point.
Can you point out where she contradicted her own apology? Because saying “I didn’t make this statement for the assholes in that thread” and calling some of the people in this thread douche bags doesn’t contradict her apology. She made it clear that she still wanted to apologize regardless of that. Making comments about how some people here were assholes doesn’t make her apology invalid. The PR person in me says it would be better left unsaid, but they don't contradict each other.

#1 is a weird thing to bring up as something that invalidates her apology because isn’t that the whole point of the apology? To apologize for coming across that way after reflecting on what she said?

At the end of the day BOTH Andrea and Greg apologized, and BOTH of them denounced hate and bigotry. I'm not really into the internet politics of whether or not an apology is good enough so this will probably be my last comment in this thread. I have spent far too much time arguing about something I don't really care about. The only thing people are really debating anymore is whether or not it was ok to say some pretty mean things about Andrea and whether or not she should just suck it up and take it with a smile.

It's good that they were held accountable and it's good that they both addressed the situation.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
11,691
Long Island
I don't really care about those people. It seems like a deflection tactic to focus on it so much honestly.

And again I don't think she apologized.
You care enough about them that AR's comments about them gave her a third strike from you.

Yes....a deflection tactic because now after the dust has settled and looking back, some people's behavior was straight up embarrassing. It's not deflection it's more like "hey can we not do that in the future" talk. That 25% needs to see how the remaining 75% are voicing their concerns with out sounding like jerks.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,175
Appease? What do you mean, to stop being critical? Why does it bother you so much that some people are critical of some other person? If you’re satisfied then leave it alone and everyone else will come around or not in their own time.
I'm not bothered that people are critical of them. What they said during the KFG broadcast was definitely in need of criticism. What I mean by appease is at what do these two need to do in order to make amends for what they said? They have apologized. They have promised to do better going forward (to early to tell if they actually do this part). Do you want them fired from their jobs? I just don't get what more people expect from them at this point. All the people still attacking them, what is the end game there? What is your goal beyond what has already occurred?

Do we hold a grudge forever? At what point is it time to accept the apology and allow them to prove their intent with action...
 
Oct 25, 2017
27,436
You care enough about them that AR's comments about them gave her a third strike from you.

Yes....a deflection tactic because now after the dust has settled and looking back, some people's behavior was straight up embarrassing. It's not deflection it's more like "hey can we not do that in the future" talk.
I don't think the dust has settled. I've seen a lot of fake apologies in my days and that is one of them.

So it feels like a deflection to me because it's premature and some people are insisting we only talk about that. Whenever you mention how insincere her apology was people say "but what about the hypothetical people who were unfairly rude to her? do you condemn them as well?"

I'm so tired
 
Oct 28, 2017
11,735
I'm not bothered that people are critical of them. What they said during the KFG broadcast was definitely in need of criticism. What I mean by appease is at what do these two need to do in order to make amends for what they said? They have apologized. They have promised to do better going forward (to early to tell if they actually do this part). Do you want them fired from their jobs? I just don't get what more people expect from them at this point. All the people still attacking them, what is the end game there? What is your goal beyond what has already occurred?

Do we hold a grudge forever? At what point is it time to accept the apology and allow them to prove their intent with action...
I havent seen a single person take issue with Greg after acknowledging his apology. And before we were aware of the reddit posts almost everyone was cool with andrea as well. People acting like others are being unreasonable or will never be happy are fundamentally distorting the discussion here
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,691
Long Island
I don't think the dust has settled. I've seen a lot of fake apologies in my days and that is one of them.

So it feels like a deflection to me because it's premature and some people are insisting we only talk about that. Whenever you mention how insincere her apology was people say "but what about the hypothetical people who were unfairly rude to her? do you condemn them as well?"

I'm so tired
Fair enough, I think we are just looking at this differently but I respect your opinion.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,455
On top of that, yet another poster who wasn’t even sure of what was said originally, but spent the bulk of their time here criticizing it. I had a feeling most people were complaining based on second-hand info. Talk about “outrage.”
 
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Nov 16, 2017
6,910
Expecting everyone to filter out negative comments with no issue is somewhat unrealistic. Earlier someone said this about Andrea:

This issue with this, DigitalOP (and you to Ramjag), is that not everyone deals with criticism the same way. This is especially true when that criticism is full of toxicity. It’s ok to handle criticism differently than others. Some people can find the constructive bits in a sea of toxicity while others can’t help but focus on the insults. It’s not really fair of us to say that Andrea should just wade through the trash when there were people on this site calling her the c word. That can be a particularly strong insult to women (and I’ve never liked how casually it’s used around here).

DigitalOP, you said that you could post a video on YouTube about cats and get a bunch of bullshit comments for no reason. You’re right, but there’s no excuse for that. Just because toxicity exists doesn’t make it ok. Let’s not handwave it away just because it’s the wider internet as if that makes it ok. YouTubers often say that when they read their comments it’s the toxic ones which stick out most.

For what it’s worth Andrea did apologize despite the toxicity, and it seems like she understands what she did wrong. I have never really been a fan of getting nit picky about the particulars of an apology to make it come across as not good enough, and I am especially not a fan when it involves excusing toxic behavior. If we are going to be upset that Andrea doesn’t like being insulted here then I’m not really sure what to say.
This is exactly why I said :

Keep in mind, I'm not saying people posting attacks and bullshit are not accountable. No, that shit shouldn't be tolerated.


Nowhere did I say people posting bullshit should be tolerated. Now, I just went and looked at the first 7 pages and Im on 100ppp. I found about maybe 2 comments that were hostile and out of line. You know what the rest of the one liners were?

"Well Kinda Funny is done"

"Im not surprised"

"Why would decrying those 2 be difficult? Call them bigots, done"

You know what I found more of? Bad actors coming in the thread trying to derail and downplay the severity of the issue, Even had a white fragility derail in the first 3 pages. Actual discussion was still being had. Now the mods went back and actioned everyone and I really don't feel like looking back on this whole thread which is 24 pages at 100 post per page. My point should stand because multiple people pointed at the first pages as being "embarrassing". These were the pages before Gregs first reply btw.

So 2 things,

1. If people making simple comments like "Im not surprised" and "Kinda Funny is over" are being considered as derogatory personal attacks, then it highlights the entire point of why this blew up to begin with. You really don't know how good you have it. Really huge false equivalency to claim that type of simple noneffective criticism gives you reason to ignore valid commentary on the issue. Do those comments mean much in the end? No, they don't add anything to the discussion. But that shit is so toothless that you'd be looking for an excuse to to prop those comments up as an attack on someone.


2. And this is the rich one, Im going to push the font up to make a point. The argument popping up currently is that one shouldn't be expected to abide by others standards, values, and morality. Sure, okay fine. People shouldn't be expected to interact with those who hurl insults and personal attacks at them. Sure, Okay fine.........

So why..... Why... why.. why in the fuck does this argument always get used to BASH minorities and discriminated people?!!

So WHY are we always told to ignore the racists and the bigots, and watch our tone so we can interact with those on the "fence". WHY do we get told to give the people who throw insults and slurs our way the benefit of the doubt? WHY are we expected to tone down out language so we don't push away the audience....

This argument is complete shit when you turn around and say Andrea has no bearing to interact with those who criticize with vulgarity or insults. (Reminder: The majority of first criticism were toothless statements up to Pg. 7) And that she has a right to protect her emotions and her sanity in that regard.

If you were in this thread using this argument and believe it, fine. But STOP using that shit to BASH discriminated people. STOP telling them they need to communicate and come to the middle and educate. Stop that shit. So fucking wack and transparent.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,039
Feels to me like Greg is willing to own it up and learn (let's see how that pans out), but Andrea isn't /shrug

"It sounded like I..." "I can see how my comments seem..." "Of course I'm not..."
This is not owning up for your mistakes and gross misinformation (much like Greg's initial reply to the OP). This is the standard PR response of "Sorry if I offended you." And as multiple posters mentioned earlier in the thread, no. It's not clear that someone is not a bigot. You don't get to say that about yourself, no matter how much good you did or do. No one has the obligation to assume you are cool, specially if one suffers with bigotry.
"I reject Notch" is completely hollow after normalizing his absolutely nuts comments and dismissing worry over them. "I reject Notch" or "Fuck X" or "I'm not Y" is pretty damn easy to say. It sounds exactly like some here (including me) said: just a way of circling around the issue, trying to not offend anyone or take an actual stance.

Anyway, still hope this is addressed directly in one of their shows and not just here/on their subreddit. Also, Greg, I would echo that maybe this is just not the sort of topic that pertains the Daily show, where you guys don't go that much in depth in general, research or no research. This is the the sort of discussion that deserves (and needs) a more focused, and probably longer, thing.

Great post.

To be fair there's a lot of fucking nonsense in this thread mixed in with the legitimate concerns.
That's how any public discussion like this goes. If a minority being dumb (with some being straight up being warned/banned for their comments) is enough to dismiss the majority bringing up good points over, you know, white suprematism, well...

I think in the case of Andrea the death of her career would be sufficient. But you've hit the nail on the head. This board has become very toxic, the moderation is too lax and if not for the ignore function, this would be a very bad place.
Already banned but I don't care: Fuck you.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
9,160
On top of that, yet another poster who wasn’t even sure of what was said originally, but spent the bulk of their time here criticizing it. I had a feeling most people were complaining based on second-hand info.
Definitely. One of the problems is the need for instant hot takes and strong stands after skimming the title and half the OP. Now, don't get me wrong, i'm all for measured shitposting. I do it all the time. In topics that don't matter. But when it comes to issues that seriously affect people's lives, we need to do better and at least understand what the hell is going on.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,882
Here is every mention of the word "cunt" in this thread. In order. Excluding posts which only quoted the below posts:


Man, that racist cunt and his nazi cuntery is really wacky, huh
But don't conflate calling people out with the going too far. "Too far" isn't always subjective, you yourself are responsible for what comes out of your mouth in the face of injustice. You may well be talking about someone who has wronged you in some way, but there is a big difference between trash talk and being abusive yourself.

Here's one takeaway from this to think about. Andrea has been called a cunt in this topic quite a number of times. Now I'm a Brit, I see and hear the word cunt used quite often. Us Brits still know it's potentially the "worst" swear word there is. But we also look to intent. If someone engages in what you could say is cunty-behaviour, you might well feel it's appropriate to say "You've acted like a cunt" or "You're a cunt". And hey, the person maybe has. And we say that to both men and women. It's one of the harshest condemnations you can hurl at someone with the English language. When people are justifiably upset, they often use harsh language.

In America though, calling a woman a cunt is still very taboo, more so than the UK. No matter the intent. GAF used to ban the word cunt, and I don't doubt some on Era staff aren't too happy about how often it might get used around here. Do I think Andrea is probably a little bit upset quite a number of men in this topic called her a cunt? Probably. Many women would take it very poorly to have a sizeable collection of men all saying "You're a fucking cunt".

But here is where I draw my distinction between anger/harsh words and criticism versus taking it too far. I've not got much of an issue with people calling Andrea a cunt given that it was handwaving Notch who is probably one of the biggest cunts on Earth. That is very cunty-behaviour to downplay how much of an asshole Notch is. Could there be a few men who have their own issues with treating women poorly who jump on the bandwagon just to get to call Andrea a cunt /troll and not have anyone care because it seems like they're just angry? Maybe, but that is what it is, the majority using harsh language to condemn your behaviour aren't doing it to throw gendered remarks at you. They're upset people understandably lashing out to an extent, because you downplayed the problematic behaviour of two of the biggest assholes in gaming.

Getting personal to the levels of talking about people's relationships, or stating over the top hyperbole/accusations and comments that are truly in bad taste, is simply not the same as you being angry and using some harsh language to call someone out.
I read her comments, what did she say that undermines her apology in your opinion? Cause shes completely right, this thread has been nothing but a hate filled circlejerk for 95% of the posts. Would you want to interact with people who are calling you a cunt? Would you want to interact with people saying you should lose your job? I doubt it.

1 user calling Notch a cunt. 0 people calling Andrea a cunt. 2 people angry about all the people in this thread calling Andrea a cunt.

This is what tone policing and fake concern looks like.
 
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