imagine that
it wasn't even a good apology in the first place
people who are still open to changing their behavior don't spout conspiracy theories unprompted to cape for white supremacists and transphobes
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Greg Miller and Andrea Rene handwave Notch and PewDiePie racist, transphobic and anti-semitic behaviour (UP: GM and AR respond; see threadmarks)
- Thread starter LebGuns
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it wasn't even a good apology in the first place
people who are still open to changing their behavior don't spout conspiracy theories unprompted to cape for white supremacists and transphobes
Saenima, if you want to cut back on the rhetoric and accusations in this topic that are ungrounded, then it doesn't really help your point to imply a moderator only gives a shit about "Era losing business" before posting your "get out of jail" card which amounts to little more than "just joking".
You do realize that is precisely the issue with the posters who say shit like "Your partner can do better" then maybe try and follow up with "But I was just joking cause I'm angry".
"Minding your manners" doesn't mean refraining from expressing your emotions, it should mean not posting nonsense that does little more than to put you in a position of unjustifiably hurting someone else. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that jazz. Take the person who has hurt you and at the initial point of entry do the best you can to get them to see the errors in their way... If they appear receptive.
Wonderment's post was actually pretty reasonable, so I'm not entirely sure how it's going to help your disapproval of parts of that post to engage in the kinds of unhelpful rhetoric that have pages of arguing currently going on.
Some of us do have to try and do a bit better than we are, especially if Resetera, as somewhat of a collective, is not to be criticised (like some posts in this topic are suggesting they cannot believe Andrea dared to say some negative things about this forum). Resetera can only strive to be that sort of "perfection" if Resetera can conduct itself in a way that allows the community to challenge itself. We can't just rely on "Hey mods, just ban everything".
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And those posts suck and shouldn't be excused. The example you used earlier was bad though.
She can bash the forum all she wants. The forum is imperfect, at times uncivil, and not any one person. We should take no offense at that.
Her doing right after she apologizes just makes her seem disingenuous as fuck, though.
It's like she's trying to write this whole thing off as just some thread being toxic, and there being no real issue, other than a slight misunderstanding of whether or not she supports people being shitty.
I've been a backer since it started, and only once before did I consider stopping (a week before Colin left he was saying some ignorant ass shit on the PS show and Greg didnt say anything), and now I am again.
Yeah, those folks suck.
The fact that her apology is quickly attracting KiA level shitheads to back her up and that doesn't appear to be alarming anyone should say a lot too.
And those idiots should be banned.
And those idiots should be banned.
My problem with your initial impression on KF and the one here is that Andrea is not innocent to the discussion. Shes not coming to this community with warning signs saying shes unwelcome or if she disagrees with us she can get out.
In fact if andrea were a new member here and said the things she did in that segment she would be banned. Unquestionably. Which is why I'm not sure I agree with you, in terms of this situation at least, that its the discussion thats keeping Andrea from coming here. Her comments about this community prior to this incident held a lot of the same disdain she is discussing in that reddit thread before this all blew up. Now maybe its because she saw other threads similar to this one and thought, I wont bother. But as others have stated, by and large the really unnecessary comments have been a rather large outlier to the productive conversation at large and no forum is insulated from those types of comments, even here where we heavily moderate shitty behavior (which is a good thing mind you).
With regards to people doubting the seriousness of her apology, I think my previous post sums up why that perception is entirely a product of her own behavior (and I hope no one is expressing this for misogynistic reasons).
And Andrea didn't say some posts were made by D bags, she was classifying them as a large part of the majority were unfair towards. Which is bullshit. I agree with her that shitty comments were made in this thread, but after an apology turning around and blaming a lot of the community here for unfairly criticizing her doesn't feel like she understands the matter at hand. Especially when she went back to the "its all drama and the internet hate mob" approach by suggesting she was dammned if she does or dammed if she doesnt. Its the same rhetoric by her that posits that the issue isn't with her comments but the actions taken by people who are speaking out against the defense of white supremacists. Again we can acknowledge shitty posts in here while also not mischaracterizing the nature of this thread as being a primarily shitty one. And further as others have stated those who are most vulnerable to the rhetoric of PDP and notch and who hear KF hand wave and defend them on their segments are going to be just as understandably upset about this as she is that a few, outlier posts were made unfairly about her. The only difference is these posters are at the brunt of that toxic rhetoric while shes free to be paid to handwave it away.
And honestly if its going to turn people away who are that dismissive of people that they hurt, because of a handful of outlier shitty posts and a lot of criticism about her ignominious behavior, I'm not sure thats not for the best to be honest.
Most of the unhelpful rhetoric has been against the people who were rightfully appalled at the handwaving of white supremacy. This thread is chock full of tone policing, of which you have been one of the largest instigators as of late. Look at where we are after 2300 posts. This whole conversation is now on whether the minorities are being too mean to the white lady who follows and defends white supremacists. We always end up here.
I completely agree it's a terrible thing to make her , and anyone else, feel like they aren't welcome here. And she's definitely not wrong about some people being douche bags to her. If I could go back and rephrase everything I would. I wrote what I did to share my feelings and not to come off as a conspiracy theorist due to assumptions. Hopefully in the end, this entire thread just ends up doing some good as opposed to souring anything further. We got Greg and Andrea to respond to and confront what they said on Monday. That's the positive outcome that everyone wanted in the first place.
I don't know what they mean specifically about "KiA level shitheads", but KiA is Kotaku in Action, a Gamergate board on Reddit.
Her apology at the very least explicitly names PewDiePie and Notch
What comes next after that is undoubtedly pretty "petty" squabbling at Resetera, which is definitely bad timing. Greg handled not being outwardly emotional and confrontational to shitty posts on here. But without re-treading 10 or so pages of the same shit, I honestly just think some leeway can be understood why some on this community have taken a little heat.
Andrea needs to put those words above into action next, but some dudes around here also need to stop acting like some mildly defensive comments aimed at this community are some personal slight against them. You are not Resetera. You're a poster on it.
What do you mean look where we are? We've received multiple apologies and statements which show a path to redemption seems to be getting attempted. We're now also discussing some of the fallout from all of this on our community.
But please, continue to just say everyone is tone policing and water everything down to "being mean to white lady". It looks like you are the one ignoring some of the good to come out of this.
What's actually being done? Did we needed 30 posts for every one of those three behaving as if that was the general sentiment?
Very well put. Agree with all of this.
KiA is Kotaku in Action. A GG board on Reddit.
A lot of the replies to her apology either come from straight up KiA posters, or accounts spreading the exact same rhetoric. The kinds of comments I am referring to are things like:
Which 1 - completely undermines Greg's really good posts in this thread, and 2 - Defends the statements in the original video, which were fucking awful and I hope everyone here at least agrees with that much.
The above comment also went on to a soft defense of Boogie. Other comments which talk about this website and claims that Andrea and Greg are "bowing down" to people when they apologize and try and listen:
To which Andrea says "I bow to NO ONE."
Another:
Famously banned Era member (for defending THQ posting on 8chan and posting alt-right BS), Falconbox is even in there contributing.
This kind of rhetoric is now dominating her apology on Reddit. I would ask Greg if this is the kind of community he is happy fostering, but I highly doubt it is.
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Her apology at the very least explicitly names PewDiePie and Notch
What comes next after that is undoubtedly pretty "petty" squabbling at Resetera, which is definitely bad timing. Greg handled not being outwardly emotional and confrontational to shitty posts on here. But without re-treading 10 or so pages of the same shit, I honestly just think some leeway can be understood why some on this community have taken a little heat.
Andrea needs to put those words above into action next, but some dudes around here also need to stop acting like some mildly defensive comments aimed at this community are some personal slight against them. You are not Resetera. You're a poster on it.
What do you mean look where we are? We've received multiple apologies and statements which show a path to redemption seems to be getting attempted. We're now also discussing some of the fallout from all of this on our community.
But please, continue to just say everyone is tone policing and water everything down to "being mean to white lady".
It's not mildly offensive. When each and every topic turns into let's bash era when three people agree on something, it's trash and leads to an atmosphere where criticism is handwaved away with "era being era." It should be called out. Honestly, take your own advice. Since you're just a poster on era and not Andrea or Greg, I'm sure we won't be getting any more pseudo-psychology about their personal motivations though.
Appease? What do you mean, to stop being critical? Why does it bother you so much that some people are critical of some other person? If you're satisfied then leave it alone and everyone else will come around or not in their own time.
I'm not waving away criticism as "era being era". You and others perceive that at times because you simply don't appear to want ANY self-reflection done on Era other than "Hey, just let the mods know". Sometimes a community likes to get together and try and hash things out as members, not just appeal to authority to handle everything by banning. I'm not saying bans aren't necessary, I'm suggesting I don't know why some people think if you're an active poster on Era and not a troll, you might be concerned at times with the image of the forum you enjoy posting on.
But I will give you the honour of your last remark, I'm treading old ground and it's probably best just to stop and wait to see what comes next.
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It was my understand from Andrea's responses that she specified some were behaving like douchebags (accurate statement) not all. If she didn't understand that the general sentiment had a real issue on hand, she wouldn't have apologized and addressed her shortcomings.
So for those who aren't satisfied with the apology, what do you want Greg and Andrea to do exactly? What would stop all the vitriol in the thread? I'm just curious cause I feel like some people just want reasons to be angry at these two and won't ever be satisfied. Like being angry for the sake of being angry.
Andrea said:
Lol here she is framing accepting criticism as "bowing". These are pretty much straight up the same language I hear on T_D when anyone criticises Trump rightly for hand waving neonazis. Criticism isn't dominance or subjugation. Many of the people on here are patreon supporters of KF and pay her fucking bills. So she can drop the indignance if she wants anyone to take her apology seriously. Has anyone at this point not bumped into the occasion shitty person on forums or in a comment section? You're a public figure with a damn internet show, grow some thicker skin.
I'm happy with Greg. I think Andrea shouldn't be given a platform while she's still undermining her own apology and supporting white supremacists.
Can we only self-reflect on things you consider problematic? If not, then I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.
I didn't say everyone. I called you out in particular. Because that's literally all you've been doing.
When Greg made his second post, i literally said that i was happy to be proven wrong. His post shows honest reflection and willingness to learn and do better. That is a good thing that came out of this. Andrea's posts show nothing of the sort and as such will not get the same praise.
I'm sorry that you don't seem to see or understand the difference.
If her apology was genuine i appreciate it, but her reddit posts are suspect.
Seems like only Greg has and not Andrea.
So, there's more to expand on the subject than I can just type out off the cuff, but I think evaluating this forum carries out its "cancel culture" is a complex situation that may merit discussion. I was thinking post of posting a thread on it and haven't finished writing it out.
Since the discussion is already happening here, I'll jot down some of my thoughts in no particular order to lend to it.
I'm sure there's more to say on it, but without going into paragraphs, that's what I've got.
EDIT: Actually, added a little bit more.
Since the discussion is already happening here, I'll jot down some of my thoughts in no particular order to lend to it.
- Anyone from 4chan can wander onto Era and make an account. There is little that is fundamentally different between the userbases of internet forums except as defined by the forum's main topic. Things like strong moderation are necessary to steer the community in a particular direction.
- Criticism of individuals for harmful behaviour can lose sight of its purpose and become a toxic source of entertainment, such as a freak show
- The political axis is not a scale of good versus evil; if "our side" or any other loses sight of its values, it simply collapses into dynasticism wherein its main goal is to maintain its power by any means necessary
- The conversation is muddled by bad actors; people who don't care about any issue or support bigotry and simply want to shut down discussions on important topics. See: low post count drivebys
- The presence of bad actors confuses individuals into viewing any criticism as coming from a bad actor
- Far right rhetoric often relies on spreading stereotypes of the left to the whole spectrum; for example, the term "SJW" was apparently originally meant for people who didn't care about real social justice issues and latches onto topics that affect no one, but the term has been stretched as a catch-all for anyone who speaks about any social justice issue to demean the entire effort
- The presence of distorted criticism confuses individuals into viewing all criticism as invalid
- Racism, homophobia, transphobia, and other forms of bigotry can demand that affected individuals, out of self-preservation, to be aggressive against those that might perpetuate those issues in
- "Cancel culture" develops in part out of necessity and can be a valid tool; for example, #MeToo arose because the legal system has been historically weak and prosecuting sex crimes, so women benefit from a means outside the legal system with which to seek justice
- The perpetrator is also a stakeholder in the incident, and ideally, should be able to grow from it. This isn't necessarily going to happen, and isn't even necessarily likely to happen, but the possibility should exist and be encouraged. Bigotry doesn't necessarily mean that you're black-hearted monster, and that should be kept in mind in both the defensive and the offensive. It can be something that is passively absorbed from an environment where bigoted ideas are common, it can arise out of apathy or insensitivity towards others, or it can arise out of the hostility. While hostility is what comes to mind when people think of a "racist" or "bigot", it's only one possible motivation.
I'm sure there's more to say on it, but without going into paragraphs, that's what I've got.
EDIT: Actually, added a little bit more.
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Speak for yourself, thanks.
Make no mistake, these tone policing posters know exactly what they are doing. It's not a coincidence that every thread on these subjects ends up as a meta-discussion that leads nowhere. It's a diversion tactic and a very effective one at that.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Case in point.
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Sure sounds like she did, even if her follow up comments she criticized the people who were awful in the thread.
even her original apology is much less sincere than Greg's. there's a lot of "I'm sorry you thought my comments were offensive". It's dishonest apologies 101.
User Banned (1 Week): Trolling, backseat modding, and misrepresenting other members over a series of posts
I think in the case of Andrea the death of her career would be sufficient. But you've hit the nail on the head. This board has become very toxic, the moderation is too lax and if not for the ignore function, this would be a very bad place.
Yeah, I'm part of the conspiracy. You are too clever for me!
At first I thought that was your opinion and I was like holy shit lol. But no you're probably right, some people want that. But that's definitely unreasonable expectations for those people.
For the discussion of how good Andrea's apology itself was, I don't think it was particular great, and I tried to explain why in earlier posts. I'll also tag gameovergreggy if he hasn't read them and thinks they might be valuable.
Greg's apology is fine. Andrea's apology feels fake because in the apology she says she is going to work on being better but no less than 5 minutes later she's going back on that apology in comments on reddit trying to paint herself as the victim when this wouldn't even have been an issue if she didn't try to handwave away racism and bigotry. Just a total lack of self awareness on her part. In her apology she said was going to work on being better about that stuff in the future but to do that you need to listen more and talk less. She doesn't seem interested in that so her whole apology is in question as far as I'm concerned.
So please enlighten me. What was the point of your post? You have contributed literally nothing else to this thread.
I'm confused - her response is threadmarked and it says "I apologize." Have I missed something or are you feeling the apology is not genuine?
The threadmark is Greg reposting her Reddit apology. https://www.reddit.com/r/kindafunny...andrea_are_currently_getting_dragged/emd9p4j/
Most of the posters who aren't convinced, feel that way because of her other comments in there, and particularly the kinds of posts she is coddling up with. They conflict with her original (and good) apology.
This is incorrect. Andrea did apologize. Her being upset with some of the comments in this thread doesn't invalidate her apology. Why is it so hard for people to understand that women don't like it when people on the internet call them the c-word (among other personal insults)? It's one thing to hold her accountable for her words, it's another to go there. Just because Greg took his personal insults "better" doesn't change that.
If English isn't your first language than I apologize for assuming it was, but simply saying "I'm sorry" isn't enough. Especially when you contradict yourself in following statements.
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