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GRRM Emailed and Addressed the Concerns of an Unhappy GOT Fan

Nov 6, 2017
7,086
Los Angeles
The person who emailed GRRM is a JB SHIPPER. We don’t have a screenshot of exactly what she wrote because there was a lot of personal information. We tried reaching out to get a screenshot of the Jaime and Brienne content, but it seems like she’s no longer in fandom. BUT we have a general description of what she told him. She was displeased with the treatment of Jaime and Brienne, so she wrote about her personal struggles and why she related to the characters, particularly Brienne. She mentioned that she wasn’t going to accept the show’s ending for them, because the messages associated with that endgame were upsetting and nihilistic, and she was looking forward to an ending that was more inspirational and hopeful for that pairing.

That’s what we
know.

What we THINK is that she mentioned the dream, because he randomly references it in the email, so I believe the first part about “your analysis” is in reference to her dream interpretation. Considering she’s a JB shipper, and from what I remember, her dream interpretation and analysis of the characters aligns with the average JB shipper: foreshadowing Jaime and Brienne being a romantic couple, Jaime outliving Cersei, Brienne outliving Jaime, Brienne’s light being symbolic of carrying on the Lannister legacy, etc. (I have a slightly different interpretation than she does, but I’ve seen her mention these points in the recent past).







GRRM: “Let me say this much –– your analysis is close to the truth. The butterfly effect was at work since the earlier seasons… and it changed some storylines more than others. If truth be told, I’m to be blamed for this too, because I had a load of work and I had to gradually step down from my duties after the forth season to concentrate on Winds. I haven’t read the scripts of the last two seasons. And I wasn’t exactly a fan of sacrificing some characters and stories at the expense of others… but I do need to mention that it was also an issue beyond the writing room and creative process.

The priority of a television network giant is rarely the story and the messages it gives. The desire of David and Dan (and HBO) to focus on actors like Peter and Lena is understandable. Sometimes certain scenes are written only for actors or for their memorability. And it’s not a bad idea to end a TV show which is well known for a controversial incest scene, with another memorable scene of the incestuous twins… it’s an ending. It makes sense in this medium, because it’s a medium that mainly relies on the memorability of imagery. A finale which brings two or three main actors together is more powerful. It’s a different animal when you are only dealing with characters, and not actors. The power of the ending in a book relies on the emotions which the words and the story itself convey.

I feel for you and understand your concerns, but I think you will be more satisfied with the books’ ending. Imagine that the books are the show are two parallel universes. There are two Briennes, two Jaimes, two Cerseis. Have you watched Sliding Doors? Sometimes taking a different path changes everything. Have you noticed that the dream might have more than one potential ending? Is Jaime’s ending in the show necessarily “wrong”? Can’t it be an ending which was the result of choices made and paths taken (by more than one character)? What if Jaime caught the train in one universe and missed in the other? Just food for thought…“
tldr;

1) GRRM talked to a Jaime x Brienne shipper who related Brienne to herself.

2) GRRM strongly implied that Jaime and Cersei don't die together in his ending.

3) Jaime and Brienne's ending will be a bit more hopeful/less nihilistic and believes the fan will like his ending more.

4) He didn't read the scripts for the last 2 seasons.

5) The show is considered a parallel universe for him where characters make some different choices.

6) He mentions that he's unhappy that the show sacrificed some stories and characters for the sake of others.

7) GRRM says that finales between books and shows are different because one deals with characters and the other with actors. Different mediums allow for different things.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,971
That was a really nice message for George to send to the fan. He didn’t shit on the show (much) but he also sympathized with the fan and expressed how things would be different in his version of the end.

I hope we get to see it.
 

BDS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,770
"I DIDN'T READ THE SCRIPTS FOR THE LAST TWO SEASONS" needs to be blared from the top of every rooftop since one of the most common disinfo canards in the wake of season 8 is that "every character ending is the same cuz GRRM read the scripts and he said so." This should definitively put that to bed.
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,608
Dallas, TX
That was a really nice message for George to send to the fan. He didn’t shit on the show (much) but he also sympathized with the fan and expressed how things would be different in his version of the end.

I hope we get to see it.
Yeah, it was well handled, though part of me is afraid old man George maybe didn’t consider the possibility of the person going and screencapping his emails online when he wrote it for her. Still, a nice gesture to a distraught fan from him, and it’s nice to have a really solid piece of evidence that the last few seasons of the show don’t have much value for predicting the books outside of a few key events.
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,360
I wonder how Joanna Robinson feels about this. I know she heavily ships Jaime and Brienne, though she was generally happy with the show version. But I think she was moreso happy that Jaimie didn't kill Cersei because she doesn't want Jaime's story to end with violence towards a lover.
 

Keldroc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,255
That's about the most diplomatic way of criticizing the end of the show anyone could write. Very kind of him to write back to that fan and try to make them feel better about it.

I am somewhat reminded of James Cameron's intro to Alien 3 at the end of his director's commentary for Aliens on the Quadrilogy box set: "It's not how I woulda done it!"
 

LukeOP

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,928
GRRM was nice but I don’t believe there is a universe that would justify the actions the characters took in season 7 and 8. It was all nonsensical decisions to get to an desired end.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,166
The Netherlands
That was really nice of GRRM.

Not gonna lie tho, I'm a little bit mad at GRRM for distancing himself from the TV show and letting D&D loose, he could have stopped it from ending like a shit show.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,930
When the books are out and it's truly finished, HBO will be ready for the reboot. "A Song of Ice and Fire" all the time. It's not TV, it's GRRM.
 

BDS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,770
Yeah, it was well handled, though part of me is afraid old man George maybe didn’t consider the possibility of the person going and screencapping his emails online when he wrote it for her. Still, a nice gesture to a distraught fan from him, and it’s nice to have a really solid piece of evidence that the last few seasons of the show don’t have much value for predicting the books outside of a few key events.
GRRM has frequently responded to fan emails over the years and they often end up online, I'm sure he knew this one could too.
 

TheLostBigBoss

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
8,996
That was really nice of GRRM.

Not gonna lie tho, I'm a little bit mad at GRRM for distancing himself from the TV show and letting D&D loose, he could have stopped it from ending like a shit show.
No he couldn't have. D&D had complete control of the show.

I think we're missing some big details of why GGRM effectively left the show and had nothing to do with it for the last four years. I think his "I left to focus on Winds of Winter" is a very polite way of keeping some of the drama that happened under wraps out of respect of the inherent creative differences that developed.

He has been very keen on keeping things civil while still being clear of his distance with the show.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,743
It's nice he actually responded, now if he could just finish those damn books...

Obviously, shit is not going to go down the same way in the books. Jaime's dream with Brienne clearly implies this.
 

Sweeney Swift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,098
"Thank you GRRM" - a sentence I expect I won't have much more reason to say in the future, given his release schedule
 

Panic Freak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,900
1) GRRM talked to a Jaime x Brienne shipper who related Brienne to herself.

2) GRRM strongly implied that Jaime and Cersei don't die together in his ending.

3) Jaime and Brienne's ending will be a bit more hopeful/less nihilistic and believes the fan will like his ending more.

4) He didn't read the scripts for the last 2 seasons.

5) The show is considered a parallel universe for him where characters make some different choices.

6) He mentions that he's unhappy that the show sacrificed some stories and characters for the sake of others.

7) GRRM says that finales between books and shows are different because one deals with characters and the other with actors. Different mediums allow for different things.
If a writer never actually writes his ending, does his story truly have one?
 

Juryvicious

Member
Oct 28, 2017
628
George the diplomat. And the wait for Winds is even tougher now. Honestly George, take your time (sigh..) and do us proud. :)
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,756
Sounds like a great guy. It's ok to be dissapointed but I also felt a bit embarrased seeing people wanting D and D lynched.
 

Starphanluke

Member
Nov 15, 2017
1,562
Am I the only one who thought that Jaime and Brienne's conclusion was actually really interesting and even more beautiful than just him redeeming himself and them falling in love?

Edit: The final season had plenty of issues. But I thought what it said about their relationship wasn't one of them.
 

TheLostBigBoss

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
8,996
So many ways they could it too.

Adult cartoon:



Full anime:





Disney-style CG



Or drawing it like the comic:







Which is my preference.
Animation would be a great way to do a remake

Budget would be a fraction and don't have to worry about aging actors.

Far easier to include fantastical elements that live action wouldn't be able to pull off.

Also in 20 years having full on winter sets might be a production issue given the whole global warming thing
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,146
Houston
That's a rather long email, wonder how long it took him to write?

Kind of crappy of whoever screen capped the emails though.
 

Kegels

Member
Jan 24, 2019
1,702
Awesome that he still reads and responds to fan mail. This news will probably lead him to get overwhelmed for a little bit
 

Faiz

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,621
That is a heck of a response - it shows the kind of person he is when not confronted with “god dude what is wrong with you write the Damn book!”

That said... I hope he follows through.
 
OP
OP
The Gunslinger
Nov 6, 2017
7,086
Los Angeles
you forgot Rankin/Bass style

Only if Stannis talks like Rankin-Bass' Witch-King


Brienne: Begone, foul king. Lord of Carrion! Leave the dead in peace.

Stannis: Come not between the Mannis and his prey or he will slay thee in turn.

Brienne: Do what you will! I hinder it if I may.

Stannis: Hinder meeeee! THOU FOOL! DOST THOU NOT KNOW THE PROPHECY!!! NO LIVING MAN MAY HINDER MAN!!

Brienne: But no living man am I. You look upon a woman. BRIENNE, AM I! You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone for living or dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him.
 
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Gaia Lanzer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,741
Can't wait to read his superior version... if it ever gets finished.
When I heard the showrunners were going to go their way based on concepts from GRRM and GRRM was going to continue his books at his own pace, I was joking that GRRM's waiting to see what D&D do wrong and how the fans react to them, and say "Cool, I'll surely avoid THOSE pitfalls. Hey GoT fans!!! Wait for MY conclusion, it's considered the 'Good Ending'!"
 

mjc

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,451
Interesting that he mentions the decisions to change things went beyond the writing room.