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Much

The Gif That Keeps on Giffing
Member
Feb 24, 2018
6,067
Source: https://80.lv/articles/horizon-zero-dawn-interview-with-the-team/

LIGHTING

"RODERICK VAN DER STEEN – Lead Lighting Artist: Lighting is crucial to the look and feels and the overall visual experience of any form of art or entertainment. I will start with some history, so people can understand where we came from. The base lighting (direct and indirect) at Guerrilla has historically been about getting the best bang for your buck in terms of performance vs. memory vs. quality – the latter always being the leading factor. "

"For Killzone Shadow Fall (PS4, 2013) we used per-pixel lighting (spot, omni, directional, area light disk, rectangular, and point/sphere with an option for textured area lights). We used a custom BRDF for direct lighting, spherical harmonics for dynamic lightning, and directional lightmaps for the indirect lighting (using all the previous tricks we learned, but this time also occasionally using half float to get a lot better range and HDR-like levels for our baked lighting.)

For Horizon Zero Dawn (PS4, 2017) we used per-pixel lighting using all the Killzone Shadow Fall tricks, but using GGX as the BRDF of choice to give our materials a wider and more accurate range of material expression. We also added a dynamic skylight to the mix, which lights everything based on the sky color from all angles." ....

"For our indirect lighting solution, we used irradiance volumes. You can think of them as multilayered lightmaps, where each pixel of each layer has a 3D location in space, and multiple directions based on probe positions. We used this for both our static and dynamic objects, giving us a fully unified way of doing indirect lighting for all objects...

It also allowed us to have a dynamic time of day. We baked the indirect lighting of our sunlight at 4 times of our day/night cycle, to 4 different sets of irradiance volume textures, which we then blended overtime to give the illusion of having accurate indirect lighting across all times of the day."

"Our renderer is built into our engine and works by voxelizing the world and baking information like albedo, normal data and translucency into a voxel cache, which is then re-lit for each time of day and the static indirect bake. This way we get material information and correct color bounce across the game."

LIGHTING - SHADOWS

"When you talk about real-time lights, shadows are very important as well – which is why a big push was made for Horizon Zero Dawn to have visually appealing and stable real-time shadows. Because the sun moves all the time, we experienced a lot of aliasing artifacts. To circumvent these we temporally stabilized them, resulting in a completely stable moving shadow. Work was done on the filtering side to achieve more pleasing soft-shadow effects and remove any signs of pixelating artifacts.

Shadow quality also plays a major part in volumetric rendering, as shadow artifacts get magnified when rendered into a volumetric system. So by improving shadows, the overall visual quality went up as well.

Most of the lights in Horizon Zero Dawn had shadowcasting, and we had a lot of ways to optimize their performance per light. We lowered resolution over distance, faded them out at a certain distance (or light size in screen space), all while trying to keep the image as rich as we possibly could.

The most important feature we used was the shadow cache, which enabled various schemes for caching a light's shadowmap: static only, static and dynamic, and so on. This meant we only had to update the parts of the shadowmap that were most important."

There's much more information contained within the source, and I don't really know how to do these source-based threads, so let me know if I've done it right or wrong. Either way, give the article a read. It's quite interesting to understand how the world is built around all these different systems.




 

CrazyAndy

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,071
Thanks. Going to give it a read even though I probably won't understand all of it. But it's always interesting to see how developers achieve these amazing results.
 

Alastor3

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,297
I heard it's the same engine Kojima is using with Death Stranding, true?
 
OP
OP
Much

Much

The Gif That Keeps on Giffing
Member
Feb 24, 2018
6,067
Thanks. Going to give it a read even though I probably won't understand all of it. But it's always interesting to see how developers achieve these amazing results.

Yup. It uses quite a lot of technical terms, some of which you can infer what they do, but other terms may need further research to understand. What they describe sounds very impressive though.
 

bunkitz

Brave Little Spark
Moderator
Oct 28, 2017
13,524
Ooh, very cool. Thanks for sharing! Will definitely give this a read later. I wonder how much I'll understand...
 
OP
OP
Much

Much

The Gif That Keeps on Giffing
Member
Feb 24, 2018
6,067
Ooh, very cool. Thanks for sharing! Will definitely give this a read later. I wonder how much I'll understand...

I think the article does a good job of explaining it rather well so that people like us can understand it to a certain degree, otherwise the article would only make sense to a smaller group of people. :P
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Horizon Zero Dawn is still my favourite looking game overall this gen so far. I appreciate it's using certain tricks and methods to save on resources and memory to maximise visual payoff, but that sort of stuff doesn't bother me, instead it's clever resource management as ultimately all that matters is the final end result. Guerilla Games, as alluded to in the OP, gen after gen for me maximises bang for buck in graphical and artistic end result.

I can't really see anything but The Last of Us 2 topping HZD for me, but we'll see. Obviously games like Death Stranding, Ghost of Tsushima, Cyberpunk 2077 etc will be in the running.
 

v_iHuGi

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,155
Guerrilla are wizards.

Horizon 2 on Playstation 5 is gonna blow everyone minds and be the best looking game of all time.
 

John Bender

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,058
Horizon Zero Dawn is still my favourite looking game overall this gen so far. I appreciate it's using certain tricks and methods to save on resources and memory to maximise visual payoff, but that sort of stuff doesn't bother me, instead it's clever resource management as ultimately all that matters is the final end result. Guerilla Games, as alluded to in the OP, gen after gen for me maximises bang for buck in graphical and artistic end result.

I can't really see anything but The Last of Us 2 topping HZD for me, but we'll see. Obviously games like Death Stranding, Ghost of Tsushima, Cyberpunk 2077 etc will be in the running.
Same here. And it's my GOTG. What Guerrilla Games did here is incredible =)
 
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Modest_Modsoul

Living the Dreams
Member
Oct 29, 2017
23,654
Not knowledgeable in tech but I guess Death Stranding graphics reminds me of FOX Engine somewhat...
 

Zeb

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
303
as a developer I was constantly thinking "these guys sure have resources and they put in A LOT OF effort". Just reading about their indirect lighting solution making my head hurt. I wish that instead of aiming for pixel count we would aim at good global illumination solutions but unfortunately it's not our call to make.
 

Pelagic II

Banned
Jan 8, 2018
215
Guerrilla are wizards.

Horizon 2 on Playstation 5 is gonna blow everyone minds and be the best looking game of all time.
Yup, truer words have never been spoken. What Guerilla already managed to accomplish with 1.84 Tflops is highly impressive. Once they get 10-12 Tflops to play around with they will create stunning stuff!
 

bunkitz

Brave Little Spark
Moderator
Oct 28, 2017
13,524
I think the article does a good job of explaining it rather well so that people like us can understand it to a certain degree, otherwise the article would only make sense to a smaller group of people. :P
Ah, that's good to hear. I'm usually barely able to follow these things despite my interest in them, sadly, haha.
 

Deleted member 33408

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 16, 2017
48
2371752-9420495614-1_by_.gif
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
It is a great article because most of the time people thinks engine are a list of feature. Rendering engine are made depending of art direction and realtime limitation. Another things tools are really important. When you see credits of a game the tool team is big if the team don't use a commercial engine.
 

Vega

Member
Oct 28, 2017
106
Not knowledgeable in tech but I guess Death Stranding graphics reminds me of FOX Engine somewhat...

Thats because KP engineers are implementing their own atmospheric scattering model on the Decima Engine. Some of them worked previously on the Fox Engine, so its plausible that they used a similar approach to the lighting model.

On Horizon credits, they mention some of the KP team:

Kenichiro Imaizumi (MGS4/PW/R/V producer)
Ayako Terashima (Kojima's PA)
Aiko Sakamoto (MGS:PW lead programmer)
Daizoburo Nakamura (MGSV lead programmer)
Yuta Hoshino (MGSV FX engineer)
Nozomu Takeuchi (MGSV art / programmer)
Hideki Sasaki (MGS series art director / character modeler)
Yasuhiro Ikoma (MGS3-V / ZOE2 / PT effects artist)
Ludvig Forssell (MGSV / PT music composition)
Jorge Ken Hashimoto (Kojima's translator)
Takaaki Ishikawa (MGSV graphics engineer)
Fumito Miyauchi (MGSV Fox Engineer / UI programmer)
Hiroyuki Nakayama (MGSV sound designer)
Akira Inamura (MGSV character artist)
Kohei Ishiyama (MGSV effects programmer)
Makoto Abe (MGSV UI programmer)
Kazuya Adachi (MGSV Fox Engine tech director)
Satoshi Matsuno (MGS3-V level design / artist)
Satoshi Matsuno (MGS3-V programming)
Takayuki Uchida (MGS4-V environment design / artist)
Hiroaki Arai (MGSV programmer / lead tech artist)

Is so cool having western and asian developers working together expanding the same engine.
 

Lukemia SL

Member
Jan 30, 2018
9,384
I seriously cannot wait to see what Kojima brings to the table using this engine.

The work Guerrilla did on this engine is worth a lot of high praise.

giphy.gif

giphy.gif
 

Vishmarx

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,043
Thats because KP engineers are implementing their own atmospheric scattering model on the Decima Engine. Some of them worked previously on the Fox Engine, so its plausible that they used a similar approach to the lighting model.

On Horizon credits, they mention some of the KP team:

Kenichiro Imaizumi (MGS4/PW/R/V producer)
Ayako Terashima (Kojima's PA)
Aiko Sakamoto (MGS:PW lead programmer)
Daizoburo Nakamura (MGSV lead programmer)
Yuta Hoshino (MGSV FX engineer)
Nozomu Takeuchi (MGSV art / programmer)
Hideki Sasaki (MGS series art director / character modeler)
Yasuhiro Ikoma (MGS3-V / ZOE2 / PT effects artist)
Ludvig Forssell (MGSV / PT music composition)
Jorge Ken Hashimoto (Kojima's translator)
Takaaki Ishikawa (MGSV graphics engineer)
Fumito Miyauchi (MGSV Fox Engineer / UI programmer)
Hiroyuki Nakayama (MGSV sound designer)
Akira Inamura (MGSV character artist)
Kohei Ishiyama (MGSV effects programmer)
Makoto Abe (MGSV UI programmer)
Kazuya Adachi (MGSV Fox Engine tech director)
Satoshi Matsuno (MGS3-V level design / artist)
Satoshi Matsuno (MGS3-V programming)
Takayuki Uchida (MGS4-V environment design / artist)
Hiroaki Arai (MGSV programmer / lead tech artist)

Is so cool having western and asian developers working together expanding the same engine.

wait so they already had people from kojima's team working on decima even prior to horizon's release?
 

nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,128
Horizon Zero Dawn is still my favourite looking game overall this gen so far. I appreciate it's using certain tricks and methods to save on resources and memory to maximise visual payoff, but that sort of stuff doesn't bother me, instead it's clever resource management as ultimately all that matters is the final end result. Guerilla Games, as alluded to in the OP, gen after gen for me maximises bang for buck in graphical and artistic end result.

I can't really see anything but The Last of Us 2 topping HZD for me, but we'll see. Obviously games like Death Stranding, Ghost of Tsushima, Cyberpunk 2077 etc will be in the running.

Personally, I think the Deathstranding has alredy upped the visual fidelity versus HZD, particularly in the lighting and rendering of the landscapes. Obviously, HZD is going for hyper real rather than realism though. Of games already released, I would say only Detroit and GoW match it in parts. Spider-man may surpass it for me though this year.
 
Oct 27, 2017
415
And people still think Death Stranding will come to PC lmao. This presentation just shows how much time, effort and money that goes into the engine. There is no way Sony would okay the use of their engine just for the game to be released on other platforms. Might as well port beg for Horizon in that case.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Personally, I think the Deathstranding has alredy upped the visual fidelity versus HZD, particularly in the lighting and rendering of the landscapes. Obviously, HZD is going for hyper real rather than realism though. Of games already released, I would say only Detroit and GoW match it in parts. Spider-man may surpass it for me though this year.

Perhaps in its accuracy of lighting and certain textures, but the thing that impresses me most about HZD is density of environments, eg the sheer volume of foliage density, the way the trees, grass etc are so well realised, plus the draw distance, size and scope of mountains etc. What we've seen of Death Stranding looks incredible, but it also looks fairly barren comparative to HZD, so I need to see more before judging it as being more graphically impressive.
 
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nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,128
Perhaps in its accuracy of lighting and certain textures, but the thing that impresses me most about HZD is density of environments, eg the sheer volume of foliage density, the way the trees, grass etc are so well realised, plus the draw distance, size and scope of mountains etc. What we've seen of Death Stranding looks incredible, but it also looks fairly barren comparative to HZD, so I need to see more before judging it as being more graphically impressive.

Fair enough. What stands out to me in DS is how much more convincing the terrain rendering is. It is a very good representation of what Iceland looks like. Horizon looks fantastic, but the scale and expanse of the environments, as well as how the vegetation is assembled isn't quite as convincing. Don't get me wrong, I think the game looks incredible, but I think Horizon 2 will look on PS5... It is going to be insane.
 

low-G

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,144
I never would have known there wasn't a realtime GI solution, their prebaked solution is very nice.

as a developer I was constantly thinking "these guys sure have resources and they put in A LOT OF effort". Just reading about their indirect lighting solution making my head hurt. I wish that instead of aiming for pixel count we would aim at good global illumination solutions but unfortunately it's not our call to make.

Obviously developers don't even agree on the direction GI should take. Something like Kingdom Come Deliverance's game engine (CryTech) is doing tons more work for its GI solution, on PC it looks great, does that pay off? Is it worth the frame rate and dev time?
 
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Falchion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
40,963
Boise
Decimal is my absolute favorite engine because of all the wild stuff they can pull off on the base PS4 with it.
 

rusty chrome

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,640
I think Death Stranding already has better lighting than Horizon. I love how atmospheric it is.

The models in Death Stranding in general are the most realistic humans I've ever seen in a game. While Horizon went for a stylized approach with its art style, Death Stranding looks pretty lifelike to me.

Here's hoping they're improving the engine much further for Horizon 2 on PS5.
 

Ze_Shoopuf

Member
Jun 12, 2018
3,939
i wish Square would just pay some kind of fee to allow their Final Fantasy dev teams to use Decima. seems like it would allow Square games to be released faster.

i'm playing thru FF15 right now, and the engine just feels kind of creaky compared to HZD (lighting, combat response, LOD, etc.)
 
Oct 30, 2017
3,629
Thats because KP engineers are implementing their own atmospheric scattering model on the Decima Engine. Some of them worked previously on the Fox Engine, so its plausible that they used a similar approach to the lighting model.

On Horizon credits, they mention some of the KP team:

Kenichiro Imaizumi (MGS4/PW/R/V producer)
Ayako Terashima (Kojima's PA)
Aiko Sakamoto (MGS:PW lead programmer)
Daizoburo Nakamura (MGSV lead programmer)
Yuta Hoshino (MGSV FX engineer)
Nozomu Takeuchi (MGSV art / programmer)
Hideki Sasaki (MGS series art director / character modeler)
Yasuhiro Ikoma (MGS3-V / ZOE2 / PT effects artist)
Ludvig Forssell (MGSV / PT music composition)
Jorge Ken Hashimoto (Kojima's translator)
Takaaki Ishikawa (MGSV graphics engineer)
Fumito Miyauchi (MGSV Fox Engineer / UI programmer)
Hiroyuki Nakayama (MGSV sound designer)
Akira Inamura (MGSV character artist)
Kohei Ishiyama (MGSV effects programmer)
Makoto Abe (MGSV UI programmer)
Kazuya Adachi (MGSV Fox Engine tech director)
Satoshi Matsuno (MGS3-V level design / artist)
Satoshi Matsuno (MGS3-V programming)
Takayuki Uchida (MGS4-V environment design / artist)
Hiroaki Arai (MGSV programmer / lead tech artist)

Is so cool having western and asian developers working together expanding the same engine.

It's so awesome KP was already so involved with Guerrilla with Decima before Horizon even release and both will continue to do so.

And holy crap looks like Kojima took a good important chunk of the MGS team with him after he left Konami, lol.