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Halo Fans: Where do you stand on Spartan Abilities? (Sprint , Thruster, etc.)
- Thread starter FUNKNOWN iXi
- Start date
Is this a joke? Do you think Halo 2 would have been the 12th most popular online game in 2006? Or Halo 3 the 12th most popular game in 2009? No, absolutely not. Compared to its predecessors, Halo is currently flailing, trying to find relevance. And it's not working. Halo was (and still should be) THE flagship Xbox game. THE title you purchase when you buy an Xbox. Not fucking 12th place. Which ties into:
Yes. People are buying Playstations and not Xboxes because people don't give a shit about new Halo or want to play it. Halo isn't selling Xboxes any more because they made it suck.
Do they? Why is it currently 12th then? Doesn't it? Why is CS still far and away the most popular competitive shooter? CS:S launched in 2004. Surely CS should be long since dead and buried by now?
Are you implying that if they removed sprint and clamber that this game would return to its glory days?
A number of factors go into that (more options, franchise fatigue, lower player base, higher skill level required) but removing sprint and clamber would only hurt player count IMO.
Not only do I support Halo 5's gameplay, I laugh judgingly at its detractors whining about it. Does it invalidate the greatness of games before it? Absolutely not. Halo 3 is still my second fav behind 5.
It's obviously not perfect and there's some very valid criticism against its implementation, I agree. But people flipping their shit simply because they added those features? Nah. Stop it
It's obviously not perfect and there's some very valid criticism against its implementation, I agree. But people flipping their shit simply because they added those features? Nah. Stop it
On the contrary many people want Halo to do something new. Many still think Halo 5 didn't go far enough. Look at the response to Gears 4. Went back to basics after Judgement but didn't light the world on fire like the previous games. Rejuvenating interest isn't as simple as going back to the classics.
That makes no sense, and current trends in the gaming industry seem to suggest the opposite. CS is the most popular fps on PC and consistently in the Top 5 most played steam games. It has no ADS, and no sprint. Rainbow 6, which is arguably a slower paced game than even Halo, is consistently in Top 10 most played games on XBL. What about Overwatch, heavily inspired by a game from 2007. No sprint (except for one character), and only a handful of characters with ADS abilities and its one of the most popular games out right now. Also, CoD WWII has done significantly better than Infinite Warefare just based on its return to boots on the ground.
I would be fine with keeping them as i felt it was the best way to mix old and new but im also ok if they go back to a more classic system.
Just stay away from reach/4 gameplay and i wont complain
Just stay away from reach/4 gameplay and i wont complain
Remove the spartan abilities. Make the game as competitive, if not more competitive, than it's ever been in previous iterations. That means no more spartan abilities (in multiplayer, i don't care if they're in campaign so it's irrelevant), no bloom, precision weapon start (pistol or BR, no ARs), well designed maps and a balanced weapon sandbox. Shotgun, Pistol, BR, DMR, Sniper, Rockets are the absolute fundamental core of this game. Other weapons like grenade launcher are ok too but they're not as 100% crucial to the core experience.
Market the game as THE competitive console shooter. Have ads in-game lobbies for competitive games/tournaments that you can switch to and watch seamlessly using your Xbox.
ta-da I saved Halo.
Suddenly it goes from being a half assed 'well it used to be kind of competitive shooter but we kinda followed the crowd and added a bunch of shit that doesn't really work or fit' into 'this game is different to all the other shooters out there - it's slow, it's tactical, it's methodical, it's skill based, it's intellectual in that it makes use of spawn trapping, map control, weapon timing, team shooting AND 1v1s.' Congratulations Halo has found it's niche of being a competitive console game in a world that is becoming more and more dominated by competitive gaming. You only have to look at the popularity of CS and LoL to figure that much out.
Are you seriously suggesting that if they left Halo as is but took out Sprint and Clamber the game would be as popular as it was in 2007?
yeahokay.gif
No, but it would be a step in the right direction. No one who wants classic gameplay is asking for a carbon copy of Halo 3. There are ways to innovate without changing the core formula. Halo 2 and 3 both were unique without having to change core gameplay mechanics.
No, because the game has already lost a large part of its previous audience and just making one change isn't going to bring it back. You have to commit to the change, by completely opting into the 'this game is THE competitive console shooter' mentality and throwing everything you have at marketing it that way. That is Halo's niche, where it belongs. Not riding the coattails of the casual FPSs of the industry, trying to adapt their ideas to fit and ending up with a messy mixture that doesn't really appeal to anyone or do anything particularly well.
Sprint should be done separate from abilities. It should either be in or out, imo out.
The AAs are great and should be central to the series. Bring AL back from Reach.
In regards to your second option I think that's a fine compromise. Alternatively have them as additional power weapons on the map.
Take out sprint/spartan charge (since it can't work without sprint)
Maybe on clamber
Keep the rest. Stablize n Slide have their value, and I'm always for adding a new interesting movement option (Sprint detracts from the stance that you can always move n shoot, slide n shoot should be a thing), and thruster packs add to the br/pistol battles. Gives you something else to work with besides strafing, crouching in between shooting. The larger problem for me going into Halo 6, is that 343's map designs are vanilla as fuck. I get why Halo 2's more creative maps wouldn't fit in a modern Halo game, given the wildly different mechanics. But I do not believe the mechanics are an excuse for the maps all feeling so similar n stilted. Halo 5 simply doesn't try enough, so if Halo 6 made good on that end. And was a more complete package at launch, I'd be down.
Also put it on PC n steam pls so it has a chance at a community.
Maybe on clamber
Keep the rest. Stablize n Slide have their value, and I'm always for adding a new interesting movement option (Sprint detracts from the stance that you can always move n shoot, slide n shoot should be a thing), and thruster packs add to the br/pistol battles. Gives you something else to work with besides strafing, crouching in between shooting. The larger problem for me going into Halo 6, is that 343's map designs are vanilla as fuck. I get why Halo 2's more creative maps wouldn't fit in a modern Halo game, given the wildly different mechanics. But I do not believe the mechanics are an excuse for the maps all feeling so similar n stilted. Halo 5 simply doesn't try enough, so if Halo 6 made good on that end. And was a more complete package at launch, I'd be down.
Also put it on PC n steam pls so it has a chance at a community.
This is what they have done IMO. Halo 3 was a a step back from Halo 2 because they introduced mechanics to the core formula that made the game fundamentally worse (ie. equipment). Halo Reach took that a step further adding dumb abilities/loadouts and that was really the beginning of Halo's downfall.
Halo 5 IMO is a correction of the mistakes they made with Halo 3, Halo Reach, and then Halo 4 was the ultimate disaster.
Also making a game "competitive" (I put that in air quotes because I fail to see how clamber/sprint somehow turn it from "the competitive shooter" to something only casuals can enjoy) well alienating everyone else is not the way to go.
I like them, and I like how Stabilize was always an option. However, they're all tied to movement and that really turns off classic Halo fans who are used to a more limited movement.
I think clamber, Spartan charge, and ground pound shouldn't return in Halo 6. I think they're the ones that are really unpopular outside of Sprint. I do love them, though, and they allow for some great gameplay and creativity.
More options in multiplayer is always nice, but for some reason it's never that easy.
I think clamber, Spartan charge, and ground pound shouldn't return in Halo 6. I think they're the ones that are really unpopular outside of Sprint. I do love them, though, and they allow for some great gameplay and creativity.
More options in multiplayer is always nice, but for some reason it's never that easy.
I think you underestimate just how large the halo 2 and Halo 3 concurrent userbase was. It was the CS GO of XBL. Always at the top or in the top 2 or 3 despite whichever hot new fad was being released. Even Cod4 and MW2 would trade top stpot with H3.
This i would argue is a bit misguided. Halo was modular, competitive Halo was rigid by comparison. There is a reason they stuck to specific maps, bumped movement speed, and adjusted things for MLG Halo 3.
I think one of Halo 5's biggest problems is that their solution to making arena fun was maybe listening too much to a pro-gamer crowd. It translated into samey symmetrical maps, that work really well for the core combat of the game, but lacks anything inventive for a map design. And while I dig Midship as much as the next Halo mark, I also super remember loving maps like Burial Mounds, Headlong, Zanzibar, BTB on water works, etc.
How was Halo 3 a step down from Halo 2? Equipment was not a core mechanic to Halo 3. It was simply poorly implemented and at the very worst it was ignored. Innate abilities that change your game's core movement is part of the core gameplay, not some bubble shield you can find on the map. Halo 5 simply added things that either didn't need to be there at the best, or hurt the gameplay at worst. Not to mention Halo 5's decreased TTK.
Also, this has nothing to do with making the game more competitive. Halo's beauty was in its simplicity and how modular it was. If anything H5 alienated casuals by splitting the game down the middle with its Ranked playlist and its Warzone (although they did add a social playlist later on), leaving people like me who spent most of their time in previous games Social playlist, out in the cold.
I'm gonna have some hate saying this but as a freackin Spartian I would like to feel like one. Gimmy Crysis like ability or burn (actually, Halo 5 is really nice movements wise).
This is a misconception. Sprint actually makes movement more limited as you can move less when actually fighting someone ie. not sprinting.
Like I explained earlier, introduction of Sprint into the game necessitates a reduction of base movement speed, or else if you have high base movement speed AND Sprint, people can sprint to literally fly around the map and it's totally broken. So the corresponding necessary reduction in movement speed makes aiming at enemy players easier, reducing the skill required and making the game less competitive. As I also explained earlier, it compromises map design by forcing map designers to consider both non-sprinting, slow movement, and fast sprinting movement. You can't design a map around players moving at 100mph some of the time and 60mph when in combat. It makes all of the spaces feel out of proportion. Either you design it for combat and it feels way too small when sprinting, or you design it for sprint and there are large gulfs of empty space when not-sprinting. It just doesn't work.
You also have to consider the limitations of it being a console game. ie. using analogue sticks to aim is not as ideal for the purpose as using a mouse. If you make the movement speed too high, it will become very difficult to hit people who are sprinting as well even for good players, and it becomes very frustrating as Sprint effectively becomes both a mobility and a defensive tool, because players can't adjust their sensitivity on the fly, and setting your sensitivity to a value that is comfortable for regular combat makes it very difficult to actually hit people who are Sprinting. And that eventually leads to the release Halo Reach level of mind numbingly bad gameplay where people don't bother actually shooting at each other or trying to use precision weapons when they can just sprint around the map at 200mph until they get into close quarters and either spray you down with a low skill full auto weapon or just mash the melee button, and find more success in doing so.
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I hated when they announced all these abilities in Halo but they grew on me quick. Halo's 4v4 flow and balance is pretty amazing. I've put 1500 hours into that mode when I haven't put over 100 hours into any single multiplayer in well over a decade.
That said, I do hope Halo goes back to basics. Classic Halo was more accessible to new players while still maintaining the skill gap. I miss how everyone on your friends list felt like they could jump into Halo.
They could compromise:
That said, I do hope Halo goes back to basics. Classic Halo was more accessible to new players while still maintaining the skill gap. I miss how everyone on your friends list felt like they could jump into Halo.
They could compromise:
- Eliminate sprint however increase base speed
- Eliminate ADS (since it adds nothing to gameplay and doesn't even fit the lore)
- Modify clamber. Hate that you're clambering everything. Make it so you only need to clamber high ledges. Everything else you should be able to vault or get over quickly.
- Eliminate boost. Gets rid of Spartan Charge in the process. Can always replace it with a hop step or some other evasion move. I like boost as a defensive move in 1 on 1 battles but don't like it's impact to other areas of the game.
It's not that complicated. If you played any other shooter in the past 5 years then you can get used to Halo 5's controls.
Oh, I should've clarified that I was talking about the other Spartan abilites that give you options out of movement. I don't consider Sprint a Spartan ability, even though it technically is, because it seems like a mainstay unlike the others.
Hated them, but I'm not a real competitive player to begin with, but they only further distanced me from even attempting to learn the multiplayer.
A more pure Halo experience is appealing to me and would have greater success getting me to try out that mode on the menu.
A more pure Halo experience is appealing to me and would have greater success getting me to try out that mode on the menu.
I'd say I'm a casual Halo fan. I've probably only put about 50-100 hours into each Halo's multiplayer (aside from 4, which I only played for like two hours), so I can't claim to be an expert, but I think it's really hard to judge the Spartan abilities in a vacuum.
As a big fan of the way Halo 5's multiplayer feels, I think the Spartan abilities work really well for Halo 5. The maps are designed in ways that take the clamber into account, the thruster makes for some interesting one on one encounters and quick escapes, and I've even gotten some fun kills with stabilize. Even if I'm always annoyed when I get killed with a Spartan charge, in general, I think these abilities gave Halo 5 an interesting, aggressive feel that I've missed since Halo 2.
That said, I know there's a lot riding on Halo 6, and a lot of people want it to be a mechanical return to Halo's glory days, so here's how I'd personally try to balance things.
Sprint, charge, and slide are so interconnected to me that I think you can't have one without the other two. As much as I enjoy sprint and the way it's balanced, I would remove them and increase the overall movement speed. Not to Unreal Tournament levels or anything, but just enough that you feel like you're moving at an impressive clip. Halo 1's movement at 60fps in the MCC feels really smooth and swift, but still has weight to it. I think that's a good place to start, with maybe a slight speed increase.
I feel like the utility of the thruster would REALLY change if sprint was gone, so this is something I'd have to playtest, but I'd keep it in for now. I like how it can mix things up in a one-on one encounter. I think I'd keep the distance of the boost the same. It's just enough to allow you to reach certain clamber points, not far enough to help you avoid an enemy with a shotgun.
I've got no issue with clamber. Halo's jumps have always felt kind of floaty, so I think the extra press of the A button gives vertical movement a little more physicality. It might be a bit less useful without the sprint, but I think it does a good job of leveling the vertical movement playing field.
Ground pound can go. It seems kinda flashy and fussy, and it's made me mess up aerial melees before. It's also an extra function on a button that already has a use. Let's toss it out.
As for stabilize and smart link/ADS in general... I'd drop 'em all. Limit zooms to certain weapons again. Maybe I'd give stabilize to rebalanced forerunner weapons and tune down their tracking capabilities or something, but that's more of a weapon balancing issue than a specific skill one.
Hopefully that'd help strike a balance between old and new-school Halo.
As for your second question...
It's also hard to judge that in a vacuum! I think finding a happy mechanical medium would be a good thing, but I don't mind the idea of giving players more options. You could even make the arena players older, less customizable Spartan IIs and give players crazy, super tweakable Spartan IVs or something. Given that Arena and BTB are Halo staples, and REQs fundamentally make Warzone modular, I think that it could be a good idea. The only problem is giving characters two avatars and having one of the game types not play like Campaign... It's a complicated issue!
As a big fan of the way Halo 5's multiplayer feels, I think the Spartan abilities work really well for Halo 5. The maps are designed in ways that take the clamber into account, the thruster makes for some interesting one on one encounters and quick escapes, and I've even gotten some fun kills with stabilize. Even if I'm always annoyed when I get killed with a Spartan charge, in general, I think these abilities gave Halo 5 an interesting, aggressive feel that I've missed since Halo 2.
That said, I know there's a lot riding on Halo 6, and a lot of people want it to be a mechanical return to Halo's glory days, so here's how I'd personally try to balance things.
Sprint, charge, and slide are so interconnected to me that I think you can't have one without the other two. As much as I enjoy sprint and the way it's balanced, I would remove them and increase the overall movement speed. Not to Unreal Tournament levels or anything, but just enough that you feel like you're moving at an impressive clip. Halo 1's movement at 60fps in the MCC feels really smooth and swift, but still has weight to it. I think that's a good place to start, with maybe a slight speed increase.
I feel like the utility of the thruster would REALLY change if sprint was gone, so this is something I'd have to playtest, but I'd keep it in for now. I like how it can mix things up in a one-on one encounter. I think I'd keep the distance of the boost the same. It's just enough to allow you to reach certain clamber points, not far enough to help you avoid an enemy with a shotgun.
I've got no issue with clamber. Halo's jumps have always felt kind of floaty, so I think the extra press of the A button gives vertical movement a little more physicality. It might be a bit less useful without the sprint, but I think it does a good job of leveling the vertical movement playing field.
Ground pound can go. It seems kinda flashy and fussy, and it's made me mess up aerial melees before. It's also an extra function on a button that already has a use. Let's toss it out.
As for stabilize and smart link/ADS in general... I'd drop 'em all. Limit zooms to certain weapons again. Maybe I'd give stabilize to rebalanced forerunner weapons and tune down their tracking capabilities or something, but that's more of a weapon balancing issue than a specific skill one.
Hopefully that'd help strike a balance between old and new-school Halo.
As for your second question...
It's also hard to judge that in a vacuum! I think finding a happy mechanical medium would be a good thing, but I don't mind the idea of giving players more options. You could even make the arena players older, less customizable Spartan IIs and give players crazy, super tweakable Spartan IVs or something. Given that Arena and BTB are Halo staples, and REQs fundamentally make Warzone modular, I think that it could be a good idea. The only problem is giving characters two avatars and having one of the game types not play like Campaign... It's a complicated issue!
This was a bigger problem right here, having zero social playlists at launch outside of warzone was a huge mistake, then adding social playlists in the form of BTB on forge maps was an even bigger mistake. They leaned way too hard into the competitve aspect of the game. As a result there was nothing still is nothing in the form of something like 1 flag CTF on Zanzibar, ie. an objective based mode on a medium sized map with some vehicles thrown.
The frustrating problem with these threads is there are people like me who have spent countless hours and hours playing Halo at a high level, breaking down why it works, how it works, what makes it fun, what makes it play well as a game, what is most effective, what can be abused, etc. etc. and want to have an indepth discussion about all of these features but it's totally outnumbered by people who read the title, come in and go 'yeah i played halo for 20 minutes i liked moving faster' without any critical thought as to the implications of introducing the feature in terms of game design or how it plays as a result. Makes these kinds of threads pointless.
example:
'i liked jetpacks in reach it was really fun being able to fly around and stuff'
'Yeah until you played at a high level with them and people were able to abuse it by sitting on top of the map in the out of bounds areas shooting down on you and then dropping down when you returned fire, only to jetpack back up after resetting the timer, and it totally ruined the game.'
-no response-
example:
'i liked jetpacks in reach it was really fun being able to fly around and stuff'
'Yeah until you played at a high level with them and people were able to abuse it by sitting on top of the map in the out of bounds areas shooting down on you and then dropping down when you returned fire, only to jetpack back up after resetting the timer, and it totally ruined the game.'
-no response-
Keep Sprint but definitely add a classic mode/maps that have Sprint disabled.
Spartan charge is overly stupid to use and keep. Why 343 thought this was a great idea is beyond any rational thinking in terms of a balanced arena shooter. Almost border line Armor lock bad.
Slide isn't really necessary.
Keep ground pound, thrust, clamber, and stabilizers.
Edit: Also, I stress this each time I think about it.
But when you expand and shrink maps you have to consider what is simplistic and KEEP that.
Don't make changes for the sake of making changes.
Now halo 5 has too much stupid geometry that you bump into crap more often or even get stuck.
Why do this?
Also, if you've played a Halo 3 map like Guardian is very easy to remember and play. It's simplistic design makes it much easier for players to guide themselves in terms of movement and shooter gameplay with the perfect triangle elements.
Spartan charge is overly stupid to use and keep. Why 343 thought this was a great idea is beyond any rational thinking in terms of a balanced arena shooter. Almost border line Armor lock bad.
Slide isn't really necessary.
Keep ground pound, thrust, clamber, and stabilizers.
Edit: Also, I stress this each time I think about it.
But when you expand and shrink maps you have to consider what is simplistic and KEEP that.
Don't make changes for the sake of making changes.
Now halo 5 has too much stupid geometry that you bump into crap more often or even get stuck.
Why do this?
Also, if you've played a Halo 3 map like Guardian is very easy to remember and play. It's simplistic design makes it much easier for players to guide themselves in terms of movement and shooter gameplay with the perfect triangle elements.
343 drove Halo further into irrelevance and it's amazing that people will still go to bat for the unnecessary things they added to the games to make them worse. Simply amazing.
for me Halo 5 is the new standard gameplay wise, i don't wanna play anything below that in this franchise ( maybe some nostalgia help to play the old titles )
I always thought that Spartan Abilities were very gimmicky - but that's probably my bias due to the countless hours I spent playing Halo 2. I know it's a way to make Halo stand out from a traditional FPS, but I really wish the game would just give them up and get back to what made the competitive multiplayer of the first two games so much fun for me.
You can always talk about ways a level can be modified to fix that jetpack problem. Not every solution is to just get rid of it.
I'm fine with everything but they can take out ground pound and shoulder charge and i wouldn't care much. If you want the other style of halo mcc should be fixed soon and you can play the excellent halo 2 anniversary
I mean, you said it yourself, the game now caters to a more casual crowd who typically respond to games that either feel good or don't feel good to play. The intricacy of design is irrelevant if the new majority of players just want to powertrip in their videogames. Every suggestion you bring to the table eliminates that super-soldier feeling. I mean, yeah, it doesn't feel like original Halo because original Halo was a decade ago. This is just a cyclical argument where the argument is, "why doesn't [insert developer] think about the hardcore crowd?"
Because the hardcore crowd are a vocal minority that doesn't push product.
Absolutely love them all, they all need to return along with a few more.
For the first time in a halo game you actually feel like how a Spartan has always been described as being.
For the first time in a halo game you actually feel like how a Spartan has always been described as being.
I'm not a fan. Halo 5 is really fun but I prefer the classic Halo gameplay. Halo 2 Anniversary is pretty much Halo perfected.
I wouldn't mind Warzone including these abilities though, or Firefight. But I would want Firefight to be closer to Reach or ODST's Firefight and not Warzone minus the enemy team. And I would not want even the thrusters to be in arena.
I wouldn't mind Warzone including these abilities though, or Firefight. But I would want Firefight to be closer to Reach or ODST's Firefight and not Warzone minus the enemy team. And I would not want even the thrusters to be in arena.
Spartan Charge is the only one I have a serious issue with. There is just too much magnetism in its current form.
Sprint I'm still in the air about. I could definitely do without it, but I can deal with it.
I don't have an issue with any of the other abilities.
Sprint I'm still in the air about. I could definitely do without it, but I can deal with it.
I don't have an issue with any of the other abilities.
BTB pistol starts.
Maybe you've been asleep for a few years but the casual crowd aren't playing Halo. The attempts to pander to them have obviously failed.
And Halo's populations numbers are doing oh so well with the casual additions, are they? The intricacy of design is always important towards contributing to the feel, flow and gameplay of the game even if most players aren't going to analyse it and break it down into why they like or dislike it. Every suggestion I bring to the table enhances that super soldier feeling. Now I don't have to put my gun away to move fast. I'm no longer limited by game mechanics, only by how good I am at the game. And that makes a game very satisfying to play.
Why do you need a elite controller to properly use stabilize?
So you want Halo to sell Gears 4 numbers. It's doing alright but it could do better.
Well first we need to define what we each think casual means. Because I sure as shit know that people who play Halo 5 aren't all professional level, hardcore dedicated players.
If you're expecting the Halo population to return to what it was 10 or 11 years ago when there was a significant void of online shooters, then you'll be waiting for a long time. Halo's population is splintered moreso because of the variety present today than design shifts.
I have two layered questions for you:
- Where do you stand on these? Which would you like to return in "Halo 6," if any? Are you indifferent, as in you don't mind if they stay or go? They are Spartans, hell yes they should have these abilities, they are machines of war, all those abilities are welcome. Makes them a lot more exciting to play
- Would you be okay with Warzone (12v12 mode w/ REQ system) having these abilities, while Arena modes (8v8 and below, equal starts, etc.) took a more Classic Halo™ approach without any of them? Perhaps you'd only want Thruster enabled for Arena, while sprint and everything else is disabled? Nope, sounds like a snooze fest with out it, drag the old guard kicking and screaming into the new world.