Halo |OT| She's Gone, Sir

Is Halo Dad?

  • Halo is mom

    Votes: 143 23.4%
  • Halo is dad

    Votes: 248 40.7%
  • The Place that Shall Not Be Named is extra-dad

    Votes: 219 35.9%

  • Total voters
    610
Oct 25, 2017
2,879
Clamber is the most useless thing. It takes away your ability to shoot at enemies for reasons I can't discern. It makes jumping into this weird win/lose proposition when it shouldn't be.
I'd be just fine if Clamber disappeared. But I have grown to appreciate how it allows you to cancel out of floaty jumps.

The thing I hate is that, as you mention, you HAVE to clamber for many standard jumps, so you have to put yourself at a disadvantage just to move naturally. Since they'll probably keep it, They should either stop designing to require clamber OR at least allow you to shoot while vs clambering
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,728
I'd be just fine if Clamber disappeared. But I have grown to appreciate how it allows you to cancel out of floaty jumps.

The thing I hate is that, as you mention, you HAVE to clamber for many standard jumps, so you have to put yourself at a disadvantage just to move naturally. Since they'll probably keep it, They should either stop designing to require clamber OR at least allow you to shoot while vs clambering
I think ideally they keep the limit of not being able to shoot whilst clambering, however, they design the maps such that any standard jump which requires clamber can also be crouch jumped.

Empire is actually quite good for this.
 
Dec 14, 2017
598
The H3 tournament expanded again!! Unreal!
Hopefully they sell out of all the team passes! I have really enjoyed watching players like Snipedown and Roy stream H3. It's an easier game to follow than H5 and I feel like it's been a lot more competitive, too. It's funny that most of these players haven't been on H3 in years and dudes like Snipedown come back in like it was yesterday. He's silly good.

The first 2K is this weekend, so we should get some idea of the rosters and hopefully orgs pretty soon. I know that Optic is returning to field an H3 roster.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,881
I think ideally they keep the limit of not being able to shoot whilst clambering, however, they design the maps such that any standard jump which requires clamber can also be crouch jumped.

Empire is actually quite good for this.
I ultimately just don't get what clamber adds besides the animation. Sprint, despite the endless arguments about it being good or bad, has a strategic purpose (do you trade firing ability for speed), thrust gives you more maneuvering options, etc. Clamber just takes away your ability to defend yourself when making jumps, and those jumps had to be consciously designed for clamber and can easily not be.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,728
I ultimately just don't get what clamber adds besides the animation. Sprint, despite the endless arguments about it being good or bad, has a strategic purpose (do you trade firing ability for speed), thrust gives you more maneuvering options, etc. Clamber just takes away your ability to defend yourself when making jumps, and those jumps had to be consciously designed for clamber and can easily not be.
It makes vertical movement much, much smoother. For example, as Trup said, cancelling out of floaty jumps.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,677
I ultimately just don't get what clamber adds besides the animation. Sprint, despite the endless arguments about it being good or bad, has a strategic purpose (do you trade firing ability for speed), thrust gives you more maneuvering options, etc. Clamber just takes away your ability to defend yourself when making jumps, and those jumps had to be consciously designed for clamber and can easily not be.
The way you describe how maps can easily be designed around a game without clamber is the exact same thing that can be said about sprint. In fact, even substitute what you said about sprint for clamber: "Clamber, despite the endless arguments about it being good or bad, has a strategic purpose (do you trade firing ability for" ------ maneuvering around the map to escape encounters or engage elsewhere).

Besides that, a benefit to clamber is course correction.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,879
I think ideally they keep the limit of not being able to shoot whilst clambering, however, they design the maps such that any standard jump which requires clamber can also be crouch jumped.

Empire is actually quite good for this.
I agree. I think with H5, they raised elevations specifically so that people would have to clamber for standard jumps. If they simply brought them down to normal crouch-jump height, things would be much better.

If they insist on requiring clamber for these jumps, then they need to remove the penalty. But this is a less than ideal solution.

I guess I'd like to see more jump routes planned in teirs:

Beginner- just jump, no clamber/crouch neccisary, slowest method

Intermediate- jump + clamber OR crouch-jump, faster but higher risk

Advanced- crouch jump + clamber OR spring jump even faster but even riskier

Fr0sty- spring jump + crouch + clamber, wtf how'd you get here

Rig is really nice in this regard.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,811
This kind of smacks of playing the game the wrong way, to be honest. If you're sprinting in campaign it's to try and get to something faster or cheese your way past an encounter. If you're trying to sprint out you've probably already lost.
No he's definitely playing the game wrong, my point is how players instinctively turn the direction they want to move at the beginner level of play (forgot to mention my friend is not what one would call "good" at Halo). Halo 5's gameplay feeds into this, which contributes to an altered flow of combat that increases the pacing of matches, which turns off old players who preferred older Halo titles. We're in a core bubble here, but casual fans didn't mind or even -gasp- liked additions like Armor Abilities and Sprint in Reach or even 4. While 4 did turn off players by mimicking CoD too much, Reach was pretty well liked or loved by the average fan; I do not have one friend who did not love that game. So one of the questions I always like to ask is why were casual player so responsive to such a messy game like Reach, but turned off by a pretty tight game like 5? I think it really has to do with pacing.

I ultimately just don't get what clamber adds besides the animation. Sprint, despite the endless arguments about it being good or bad, has a strategic purpose (do you trade firing ability for speed), thrust gives you more maneuvering options, etc. Clamber just takes away your ability to defend yourself when making jumps, and those jumps had to be consciously designed for clamber and can easily not be.
Casual players like to be able to access vertical positions with ease. We don't see a use for it because we're used to crouch-jumping, but some player struggle with that and would rather just press a button to mantle a simple ledge. If maps are designed properly, it shouldn't matter which one you use and only contribute to the skill gap.

See, I think one of the main problems with sprint is it requires the player to detach himself from the gunfight. So I'll never be able to get behind an ability that has the sole purpose of getting players from A to B quicker. Either move A and B close together, or let me shoot while moving from A to B quicker.

The drain, would be the counter to using stim while fighting. I imagine doing anything other than Stimming forward would drain it more quickly. And thrust would be pretty much impotent if you don't have a full bar. Players would have to keep that in mind if they plan to bring it into battle.

Having a too wide a skill gap is never a problem. IMO. A game like Rocket League is the perfect example. Really easy to get into casually, but also allows for some extremely advanced technical gameplay at higher levels. That type of dynamic is GOOD for a game's popularity and longevity.
I'm just concerned with how stim would effect the pace of individual gunfights, whereas sprint is a pretty isolated feature if done right. If it becomes impractical to use in a gunfight, then it's basically non-existent and only really practical from getting from A to B faster, which is sometimes needed in larger maps that require larger distances for vehicle play, where sometimes it would be unwise for a player to make themselves a bigger target by hoping in a Mongoose or something. This is one of those things where actual testing would be helpful instead of arguing theoreticals. Although I'm glad to see support for the idea of tying thrusters closer to movement with bars. Also, skill gap is important, but when it gets too large casual play may not be fun for some players, which is my only hesitation with something like that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,879
I'm just concerned with how stim would effect the pace of individual gunfights, whereas sprint is a pretty isolated feature if done right. If it becomes impractical to use in a gunfight, then it's basically non-existent and only really practical from getting from A to B faster, which is sometimes needed in larger maps that require larger distances for vehicle play, where sometimes it would be unwise for a player to make themselves a bigger target by hoping in a Mongoose or something. This is one of those things where actual testing would be helpful instead of arguing theoreticals. Although I'm glad to see support for the idea of tying thrusters closer to movement with bars. Also, skill gap is important, but when it gets too large casual play may not be fun for some players, which is my only hesitation with something like that.
If it were truly possible to make sprint worthless besides getting from A to B faster - then is it really worth the effort to design and balance the mechanic? Is it worth the button it takes up? Id rather they focus on map designs so that they better support infantry and vehicles together. They should even explore using the weapon sandbox to enhance mobility.

We so many concepts they could try: infantry only shortcuts, teleporters/portals, jet streams, man cannons, conveyors etc. They could give the magnum or single handed weapons a slight speed boost. They could put a Halo twist on the "rocket jumping" concept. Teleportion grenades. It would be so much simpler to tackle this "problem" with modular additions to the sandbox rather than mechanical shifts that effect how everything is designed. If a modular addition ends up not working, you can just take it off the map.

As far as skill gap - the bigger the gap, the better it is for casuals - But this is the contingent on the game being fun without needing to engage with advanced technique (which is why I'm interested in reducing the general complexity that has come with SAs) Again, I refer to Rocket League. It has a MASSIVE skill gap. But it's a ton of fun even if you never engage with aerials, advanced dribbling technique, or developing complex strats. Casuals are having fun just trying to smack the ball into the goal.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
2,303
Hopefully they sell out of all the team passes! I have really enjoyed watching players like Snipedown and Roy stream H3. It's an easier game to follow than H5 and I feel like it's been a lot more competitive, too. It's funny that most of these players haven't been on H3 in years and dudes like Snipedown come back in like it was yesterday. He's silly good.

The first 2K is this weekend, so we should get some idea of the rosters and hopefully orgs pretty soon. I know that Optic is returning to field an H3 roster.
i assume this isnt going to be streamed/casted in any official capacity?
 
Dec 14, 2017
598
i assume this isnt going to be streamed/casted in any official capacity?
I don't believe so, but they did just push it back until 12/8 because so many teams are still assembling rosters, so maybe they'll announce a stream with the extra time, too?

It's not ideal, but I'm sure players like Flamesword and Roy will be streaming, at least.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,303
I don't believe so, but they did just push it back until 12/8 because so many teams are still assembling rosters, so maybe they'll announce a stream with the extra time, too?

It's not ideal, but I'm sure players like Flamesword and Roy will be streaming, at least.
Ninja should hop on someones matches and cast! :D
 
Nov 14, 2017
812
I agree. I think with H5, they raised elevations specifically so that people would have to clamber for standard jumps. If they simply brought them down to normal crouch-jump height, things would be much better.

If they insist on requiring clamber for these jumps, then they need to remove the penalty. But this is a less than ideal solution.

I guess I'd like to see more jump routes planned in teirs:

Beginner- just jump, no clamber/crouch neccisary, slowest method

Intermediate- jump + clamber OR crouch-jump, faster but higher risk

Advanced- crouch jump + clamber OR spring jump even faster but even riskier

Fr0sty- spring jump + crouch + clamber, wtf how'd you get here

Rig is really nice in this regard.
I like this. Also clamber should be in the campaign/PvE regardless of what happens to MP, because when I drop from a Hornet onto a Scarab and magically start to slide away at the speed of sound, I want to be able to grab onto something.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,879

Unreal. Of course a lot of people buying passes don't even have teams yet, so it'll be interesting to see how it all plays out in the end. But it's crazy to think this event started out targeting 32 teams.
 
Dec 14, 2017
598
Unreal. Of course a lot of people buying passes don't even have teams yet, so it'll be interesting to see how it all plays out in the end. But it's crazy to think this event started out targeting 32 teams.
It's awesome! I suspect there won't actually be 128 teams (a lot of players will have bought team passes and then team up with other players who bought passes, etc.), but I love the enthusiasm, especially since it's a small tournament for a small prize pool. Even H5 level prize pools ($125k, $250k) would make it a way bigger deal. Hopefully they get there.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,303

Unreal. Of course a lot of people buying passes don't even have teams yet, so it'll be interesting to see how it all plays out in the end. But it's crazy to think this event started out targeting 32 teams.
ok, i'm ready to call it. I'm eating crow. the change to the classic formula is at least one of the SIGNIFICANT factors to halo's decline. Damn.

great to see the community rallying around halo again!
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,879
Vanilla H3 is hot garbage. I actually removed it from my mixtape and replaced it with H4, which is warm garbage.

Hardcore H3 though... It's legit! It's one straight shooting BR away from being excellent.

Classic fundamentals are the key to future success. Advanced mobility isn't the sole cause of Halo's decline - its just one of many symptoms of the franchise veering away from the niches it carved out, expanded, and dominated and veering towards a crowded space that it didn't naturally fit into.

Bungie's contempt for competitive halo didn't help matters. Its true, in the beginning console esports needed Halo, not the other way around. But around the time of Reach, a game that actively strived to be competitively non-viable, esports was growing and rapidly becoming the marketing force it is today. Halo should have been in the front of the pack, riding that wave, but instead, it jumped off.

The excitement around this particular tournament doesn't mean much in the long term. It is just one tournament, after all. But the whole HCS grassroots initiative gives me hope and confidence that 343 will be much better at being responsive to the community's desire for a classic outlet. I hope that translates into H:I's Playlist selection, if not the core design.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,879
Halo 3 sucks now?
I had some fun with it back in the day, but Spawning with an AR and the worst magnum in Halo history sucks. And the BR is pathetic. It's tough to want to play the game when H2/H2A are on the same disk and H5 exists.

The hardcore Playlist is the only H3 I can stomach because they tweaked the movement and damage settings so it doesn't feel like such a slog.
 
Last edited:

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,728
Halo 3 sucks now?
Yeah, it kinda does.

Everything about Halo 3's core gameplay is slow and clunky.

Even the grenade throws are bad. I hadn't really noticed it before but after coming from Halo 5 it's bad. In 5 you can properly launch a grenade with precision, in 3 there's so little power on the throws, completely unsatisfying.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,500
I had some fun with it back in the day, but Spawning with an AR and the worst magnum in Halo history sucks. And the BR is pathetic. It's tough to want to play the game when H2/H2A are on the same disk and H5 exists.

The hardcore Playlist is the only H3 I can stomach because they tweaked the movement and damage settings so it doesn't feel like such a slog.
Yeah, it kinda does.

Everything about Halo 3's core gameplay is slow and clunky.

Even the grenade throws are bad. I hadn't really noticed it before but after coming from Halo 5 it's bad. In 5 you can properly launch a grenade with precision, in 3 there's so little power on the throws, completely unsatisfying.
I just find it funny because I been saying this for years. Still has the best maps in the series.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,881
Yeah, it kinda does.

Everything about Halo 3's core gameplay is slow and clunky.

Even the grenade throws are bad. I hadn't really noticed it before but after coming from Halo 5 it's bad. In 5 you can properly launch a grenade with precision, in 3 there's so little power on the throws, completely unsatisfying.
Still take it versus ODST. Worst grenade throws in the series, always throws me when I play it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,205
I just find it funny because I been saying this for years. Still has the best maps in the series.
It has the best BTB maps with certainty (Valhalla is overrated though), but has some real stinkers in terms of 4v4 (Epitaph, Snowbound, Isolation, Construct, Orbital).
 
Dec 14, 2017
598
It has the best BTB maps with certainty (Valhalla is overrated though), but has some real stinkers in terms of 4v4 (Epitaph, Snowbound, Isolation, Construct, Orbital).
Isolation might be my least favorite map in the series. Absolute trash. When they used a Forge version of it in H5 matchmaking, I wanted to scream.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,205
Isolation might be my least favorite map in the series. Absolute trash. When they used a Forge version of it in H5 matchmaking, I wanted to scream.
“I perfectly remade Isolation in Forge!”

Why.

I think Overgrowth and Riptide are the worst maps in Halo’s history closely followed by Isolation and Construct.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,728
I just find it funny because I been saying this for years. Still has the best maps in the series.
I dunno…

As Moose says it has some fantastic BTB maps but the 4v4 selection isn't actually that great. Even some of the good 4v4 maps are overrated imo like Narrows.

Halo 2 has the best maps.
 
Dec 14, 2017
598
“I perfectly remade Isolation in Forge!”

Why.

I think Overgrowth and Riptide are the worst maps in Halo’s history closely followed by Isolation and Construct.
Overgrowth and Riptide bum me out not only because they're bad, but because the maps they're based on are solid. (Same for Molten as it relates to The Rig.) I don't know that H5 has any great maps, but Fathom and Plaza are among the better playing ones and somehow the remixes just have no flow.

Hopefully they don't go down the remix route again for Infinite.