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Halo |OT| She's Gone, Sir

Oct 25, 2017
1,693
You forgot Flighting. Infinite may be getting something similar to the MCC Insider program.
That's correct. I mentioned that in the other thread and didn't update my post here.

5 absolutely gets shit on more than the other games for far less.
You continue to have selective memmory and your definition of getting shit on is probably also very weird. Every time that I read constructive feedback, there is at least one person completely rejecting opinions with saying that people are overdramatic and are just whining for the sake of hating 343i or any other ridiculous reasons. I have been reading Trup1aya's post in the MS thread for example and the amount of ignorance/rejection is just astonishing. Doesn't help that people who give their constructive feedback about the things that they dislike have to constantly repeat their reasoning, while others who are fine with everything, are just being super defensive about it and provide next to no counter arguments.

I've been reading forums like GAF occasionally since the very late Halo 3 days and I started following it a little more during the Halo Reach and Halo 4 transition and the amount of "shit" that these games have gotten wasn't really any more or less, than Halo 5. I would say that MCC has gotten the most "shit" for being incredibly broken and we all know that it was justified. Edit: Let me make clear that people sending hate messages and death threats to developers over this is never justified and that's not even debatable.

This is not only directed towards you, but people are really getting overly defensive over things that they like and they are willing to bend the past for it. I have been guilty of doing the same thing in the past.

It's the newest game, continuing the Halo Cycle®.
It really is.
 
Oct 25, 2017
737
That's correct. I mentioned that in the other thread and didn't update my post here.



You continue to have selective memmory and your definition of getting shit on is probably also very weird. Every time that I read constructive feedback, there is at least one person completely rejecting opinions with saying that people are overdramatic and are just whining for the sake of hating 343i or any other ridiculous reasons. I have been reading Trup1aya's post in the MS thread for example and the amount of ignorance/rejection is just astonishing. Doesn't help that people who give their constructive feedback about the things that they dislike have to constantly repeat their reasoning, while others who are fine with everything, are just being super defensive about it and provide next to no counter arguments.

I've been reading forums like GAF occasionally since the very late Halo 3 days and I started following it a little more during the Halo Reach and Halo 4 transition and the amount of "shit" that these games have gotten wasn't really any more or less, than Halo 5. I would say that MCC has gotten the most "shit" for being incredibly broken and we all know that it was justified. Edit: Let me make clear that people sending hate messages and death threats to developers over this is never justified and that's not even debatable.

This is not only directed towards you, but people are really getting overly defensive over things that they like and they are willing to bend the past for it. I have been guilty of doing the same thing in the past.



It really is.
Is there something I'm missing? What did nokyard do to warrant that?
 

DemonCarnotaur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,155
Halo 5 is really well made, and quite fun - but it still doesn't scratch the itch I want from Halo.


It tries to be too many things, and loses some of its identity in the process - but it does it all with some solid game development, style, and stability that you really don't see in games very often.

Also, I just feel like some of the MP lost its zany Halo 'fun factor' by catering to what I imagine was pro-centric map design. I think there is room for a careful blend of smart maps for pro gaming while still retaining some of that Halo outlandishness and flash.
 
Oct 27, 2017
270
Northern Ireland
Halo 5 is really well made, and quite fun - but it still doesn't scratch the itch I want from Halo.


It tries to be too many things, and loses some of its identity in the process - but it does it all with some solid game development, style, and stability that you really don't see in games very often.

Also, I just feel like some of the MP lost its zany Halo 'fun factor' by catering to what I imagine was pro-centric map design. I think there is room for a careful blend of smart maps for pro gaming while still retaining some of that Halo outlandishness and flash.
You are my spirit animal.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,491
Halo 5 is really well made, and quite fun - but it still doesn't scratch the itch I want from Halo.


It tries to be too many things, and loses some of its identity in the process - but it does it all with some solid game development, style, and stability that you really don't see in games very often.

Also, I just feel like some of the MP lost its zany Halo 'fun factor' by catering to what I imagine was pro-centric map design. I think there is room for a careful blend of smart maps for pro gaming while still retaining some of that Halo outlandishness and flash.
its certainly a shame there are no h5 4v4 maps with a warthog or ghost, competitive balance be damned.
 
Oct 25, 2017
799
has there ever been a game mode where its like dodgeball with respawns?

example:

1-2-3-4 vs A-B-C-D

Say 1 Kills A

A stays dead

But then B kills 4

A respawns

and it continues til one of the team is out of players?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,065
Do vehicles really serve much of a purpose on 4v4 maps? If it's to get to somewhere faster then at that point is the map to big to be considered 4v4?
You can consider them another variant of power weapons. The ghost on Standoff was useful for leading assaults and suppressing enemies, for instance.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,350
You can consider them another variant of power weapons. The ghost on Standoff was useful for leading assaults and suppressing enemies, for instance.
I would give Standoff the pass as it's more of a BTB map. I'll use Ghost Town and Snowbound for example. I don't remember the last time I've seen people use the vehicles on those maps, and specifically on Ghost Town the maps seems a bit cluttered to get around. High Ground would probably be the objective but I only ever see the ghost being used for offensive purposes but not all the time, but I also don't think High Ground is the best example of a 4v4 map.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,363
Do vehicles really serve much of a purpose on 4v4 maps? If it's to get to somewhere faster then at that point is the map to big to be considered 4v4?
Hell yes.

Coagulation = come on tanks, hogs etc. Pure Halo joy right there.

Valhalla = banshees, tanks, wraiths, ghosts, mantis (other map variants) etc. Again pure Halo joy in slayer or OBJ.

Zanzibar = holy shit, OBJ flag and bomb runs with the hog. Dude how can you not live that 4v4 light vehicle shit. How about the Gauss Hog?

High ground = ghost suppression and clean up for flag/bomb runs.
High ground = mongoose antics that lead to insane captures/arms...that or you gave away a sweet double kill.

Standoff = players entire gamertags were devoted to hog driving medals or hog kills, there were leaderboards and everything. Brilliant play between equipment, brute shot, stickies, rocks, hogs, objective, laser etc.

Ascension = banshee vs rocks/sniper/stickies. Worked for slayer and OBJ.

Burial mounds = ghost offense/defence was important in slayer/OBJ.

Relic = the hog and ghost were so damned important. That rush at the beginning for the flag leap off the tower or to get your bomb guy close/arm/distract etc.

Avalanche = full gamut of vehicle even the hornet bloody awesome in flag/bomb OBJ.


Fuck dude, not to call you out but how can you say do vehicles service much purpose in Halo 4v4? Bungie/343 really dropped the fucking ball with this sweet spot of Halo 4v4 OBJ post H2/3. I fucking hope Infinite brings this back in spades. It's what I live for with Halo. Going on foot with the bomb, coordinating with your party or using them distractions for solo OBJ runs etc. Christ I miss this Halo.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,167
Halo 5 is really well made, and quite fun - but it still doesn't scratch the itch I want from Halo.


It tries to be too many things, and loses some of its identity in the process - but it does it all with some solid game development, style, and stability that you really don't see in games very often.

Also, I just feel like some of the MP lost its zany Halo 'fun factor' by catering to what I imagine was pro-centric map design. I think there is room for a careful blend of smart maps for pro gaming while still retaining some of that Halo outlandishness and flash.
There isn't an abundance of pro-centric maps- just an abundance of bad maps, and a complete absence of dev made mid to large maps with vehicles.

The concept of a pro-centric map doesn't even make sense. The map is either well balanced or it isn't. If the Dev succeeds atbmake map fair and fun, they'll have a staple of competitive maps by default. making a balanced map doesn't come at the expense of halo "flash or outlandishness". Dating back to CE some of the most popular competitive maps are the most definitively "halo" in terms of design.

Why do people keep scapegoating the Pro scene for poor design choices? Is pro focus why we got stuck with garbage like molten, riptide, and Overgrowth? Maps like statis that heavily favor One team over the other?
 
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Oct 27, 2017
2,350
Hell yes.

Coagulation = come on tanks, hogs etc. Pure Halo joy right there.

Valhalla = banshees, tanks, wraiths, ghosts, mantis (other map variants) etc. Again pure Halo joy in slayer or OBJ.

Zanzibar = holy shit, OBJ flag and bomb runs with the hog. Dude how can you not live that 4v4 light vehicle shit. How about the Gauss Hog?

High ground = ghost suppression and clean up for flag/bomb runs.
High ground = mongoose antics that lead to insane captures/arms...that or you gave away a sweet double kill.

Standoff = players entire gamertags were devoted to hog driving medals or hog kills, there were leaderboards and everything. Brilliant play between equipment, brute shot, stickies, rocks, hogs, objective, laser etc.

Ascension = banshee vs rocks/sniper/stickies. Worked for slayer and OBJ.

Burial mounds = ghost offense/defence was important in slayer/OBJ.

Relic = the hog and ghost were so damned important. That rush at the beginning for the flag leap off the tower or to get your bomb guy close/arm/distract etc.

Avalanche = full gamut of vehicle even the hornet bloody awesome in flag/bomb OBJ.


Fuck dude, not to call you out but how can you say do vehicles service much purpose in Halo 4v4? Bungie/343 really dropped the fucking ball with this sweet spot of Halo 4v4 OBJ post H2/3. I fucking hope Infinite brings this back in spades. It's what I live for with Halo. Going on foot with the bomb, coordinating with your party or using them distractions for solo OBJ runs etc. Christ I miss this Halo.
Most of those maps aren’t designed with 4v4 in mind, even with vehicles. With and without vehicles they play too slow. In this case I’m referring to Ascension, High Ground, etc. and not Coagulation or Avalanche. Those maps shouldn’t even be in a 4v4 playlist.

Like I hate getting Relic in H2A because it’s 4v4 on a map that would play better with bigger teams. The same goes for a lot of the other maps you listed.
 
Oct 25, 2017
211
Most of those maps aren’t designed with 4v4 in mind, even with vehicles. With and without vehicles they play too slow. In this case I’m referring to Ascension, High Ground, etc. and not Coagulation or Avalanche. Those maps shouldn’t even be in a 4v4 playlist.

Like I hate getting Relic in H2A because it’s 4v4 on a map that would play better with bigger teams. The same goes for a lot of the other maps you listed.
H2A Slayer, Capture the Flag, and Assault – Removed Relic from the map rotation.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,167
Most of those maps aren’t designed with 4v4 in mind, even with vehicles. With and without vehicles they play too slow. In this case I’m referring to Ascension, High Ground, etc. and not Coagulation or Avalanche. Those maps shouldn’t even be in a 4v4 playlist.

Like I hate getting Relic in H2A because it’s 4v4 on a map that would play better with bigger teams. The same goes for a lot of the other maps you listed.
I think relic 1 flag works fine in 4v4. But yeah it's a BTB map. But there are plenty of unmentioned 4v4 maps between H2 and H3 that have vehicles like turf, snow bound, isolation.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,363
Most of those maps aren’t designed with 4v4 in mind, even with vehicles. With and without vehicles they play too slow. In this case I’m referring to Ascension, High Ground, etc. and not Coagulation or Avalanche. Those maps shouldn’t even be in a 4v4 playlist.

Like I hate getting Relic in H2A because it’s 4v4 on a map that would play better with bigger teams. The same goes for a lot of the other maps you listed.
At least two thirds are built for 4v4 there mate. I was literally one of the players with most games played in OBJ H2 ad H3. Like 20,000 of them.

Some play better with BTB or were designed to cater for both. There are others in 4v4 vehicles too e.g. tempest and more. I was just making an overwhelming point.

Truly BTB maps are headlong, sandtrap, sidewinder, containment, some H4 maps etc. Avalanche does play better in BTB though.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,907
what if they bring back projectiles for halo:Infinite weapons? ALL OF EM
I see the argument for projectile weapons in terms of skill.

However, I'm against because it's just less fun. It might be more skillful but I don't find it satisfying to master, only frustrating to deal with.
 
Nov 2, 2017
1,602
Denver, CO
I see the argument for projectile weapons in terms of skill.

However, I'm against because it's just less fun. It might be more skillful but I don't find it satisfying to master, only frustrating to deal with.
yeah i dont think i'd want it either, but seeing how people love halo 3 i thought id throw in a wrench :P ... because h3 was mainly projectile right?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,167
yeah i dont think i'd want it either, but seeing how people love halo 3 i thought id throw in a wrench :P ... because h3 was mainly projectile right?
yeah h3 was all projectile. i think was a dumb move for their p2p solution then they threw random spread on top of that which was overkill.

when it comes to fun vs frustration I can understand why someone wouldn't want projectile- missing because you forgot to or are having trouble leading your shots might feel bad. or you'd rather not have to think about it.

But the solutions for balancing hitscan often feel really bad too. being on target, but missing because of RNG doesnt feel good, but without it, everyone having lazers can hurt map movement. it also doesn't feel great having wildly different reticle assist profiles across the sandbox.

there probably isn't a perfect solution. but i think of netcode is good enough and the min projectile speed high enough, projectile would work really well.

I see the argument for projectile weapons in terms of skill.

However, I'm against because it's just less fun. It might be more skillful but I don't find it satisfying to master, only frustrating to deal with.
i don't think skill argument is the strongest one. it's more about simplifying the approach to weapon balancing.
 
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OP
OP
Poodlestrike

Poodlestrike

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,301
i don't think skill argument is the strongest one. it's more about simplifying the approach to weapon balancing.
This is my primary argument in favor, honestly. Projectile speed on everything opens up a lot of room for diverse weapon balancing, especially if we're going to be sticking with multiple utility weapons.
 
Oct 27, 2017
561
Projectiles allow weapons to be made harder to use at range, through a simple deterministic behavior and without compromising (or losing consistency in) aim feel.

Halo 3's jank was a result of a lot of things compounding. Such slow projectiles need good impact indication, but the spread and weak indicators combined to make the weapon behavior feel opaque, especially when the host's bandwidth started to crack. It's possible for projectiles to work far far better.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,907
yeah h3 was all projectile. i think was a dumb move for their p2p solution then they threw random spread on top of that which was overkill.

when it comes to fun vs frustration I can understand why someone wouldn't want projectile- missing because you forgot to or are having trouble leading your shots might feel bad. or you'd rather not have to think about it.

But the solutions for balancing hitscan often feel really bad too. being on target, but missing because of RNG doesnt feel good, but without it, everyone having lazers can hurt map movement. it also doesn't feel great having wildly different reticle assist profiles across the sandbox.

there probably isn't a perfect solution. but i think of netcode is good enough and the min projectile speed high enough, projectile would work really well.



i don't think skill argument is the strongest one. it's more about simplifying the approach to weapon balancing.
I feel like the current BR's recoil is a better long distance balancing solution than projectile weapons.

It's consistent and doesn't cause any frustration because it effectively communicates why you miss/hit. It also doesn't fall prey to any networking issues and.

I also find it quite satisfying to use.

That said, I think adding bullet hitmarkers would significantly reduce the frustration with projectile weapons.





Also I'm pretty sure that Halo 3's projectiles don't actually take into account your horizontal motion. As in, if you're strafing in line with someone you still need to lead them which I find very annoying.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
3,167
So maybe projectiles will work on dedicated servers???
I feel like the current BR's recoil is a better long distance balancing solution than projectile weapons.

It's consistent and doesn't cause any frustration because it effectively communicates why you miss/hit. It also doesn't fall prey to any networking issues and.
i feel like trying to counteract recoil on an analog stick is much more cumbersome than making an adjustment for bullet speed. with good tracers and feedback , you quickly figure out the offset. then it's just a matter of maintaining it

I also find it quite satisfying to use.
i never touch the BR anymore. it's too easy to beat with the straight shooting magnum.

That said, I think adding bullet hitmarkers would significantly reduce the frustration with projectile weapons.
ive never felt frustrated with projectile in any game other than h3- which also had a weird aiming system, poor netcode, and poor hit feedback. i think many falsely blamed projectile for their frustration.

Also I'm pretty sure that Halo 3's projectiles don't actually take into account your horizontal motion. As in, if you're strafing in line with someone you still need to lead them which I find very annoying.
could also be a netcode thing...
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,907
i feel like trying to counteract recoil on an analog stick is much more cumbersome than making an adjustment for bullet speed. with good tracers and feedback , you quickly figure out the offset. then it's just a matter of maintaining it



i never touch the BR anymore. it's too easy to beat with the straight shooting magnum.



ive never felt frustrated with projectile in any game other than h3- which also had a weird aiming system, poor netcode, and poor hit feedback. i think many falsely blamed projectile for their frustration.



could also be a netcode thing...
The BR's recoil doesn't need to be countered. It automatically resets after a burst.

The recoil just results in a consistent vertical spread of the burst which effectively reduces its power at range.

I still find the BR to be quite effective at short to mid range against a magnum. Particularly when trying to hot the final headshot.

The frustration in H3 is definitely due, in part, to what you listed and absolutely could be improved through hitmarkers and tracers etc. That said, personally I find projectiles inherently lead to some frustration, even with better feedback.

Also, for projectiles to have an appreciable effect on Halo's weapon balancing the bullets have to be relatively slow due to the small map size. I find having to lead by a fair amount even over a short distance can make the weapons feel worse. I think it might be part of why 3's projectiles are more frustrating than in other titles though - there's a disconnect between the players expectations of how the weapon should work and how it functions in the game. That said I don't actually think this is a good argument against them, it's just another minor reason why I dislike them in the context of Halo
 
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Oct 25, 2017
3,167
The BR's recoil doesn't need to be countered. It automatically resets after a burst.

The recoil just results in a consistent vertical spread of the burst which effectively reduces its power at range.

I still find the BR to be quite effective at short to mid range against a magnum. Particularly when trying to hot the final headshot.

The frustration in H3 is definitely due, in part, to what you listed and absolutely could be improved through hitmarkers and tracers etc. That said, personally I find projectiles inherently lead to some frustration, even with better feedback.

Also, for projectiles to have an appreciable effect on Halo's weapon balancing the bullets have to be relatively slow due to the small map size. I find having to lead by a fair amount even over a short distance can make the weapons feel worse. I think it's part of why 3's projectiles are more frustrating than in other titles though - there's a disconnect between the players expectations of how the weapon should work and how it functions in the game. That said I don't actually think this is a good argument against them, it's just another minor reason why I dislike them in the context of Halo
The BR's recoil doesn't need to be countered. It automatically resets after a burst.

The recoil just results in a consistent vertical spread of the burst which effectively reduces its power at range.

I still find the BR to be quite effective at short to mid range against a magnum. Particularly when trying to hot the final headshot.

The frustration in H3 is definitely due, in part, to what you listed and absolutely could be improved through hitmarkers and tracers etc. That said, personally I find projectiles inherently lead to some frustration, even with better feedback.

Also, for projectiles to have an appreciable effect on Halo's weapon balancing the bullets have to be relatively slow due to the small map size. I find having to lead by a fair amount even over a short distance can make the weapons feel worse. I think it's part of why 3's projectiles are more frustrating than in other titles though - there's a disconnect between the players expectations of how the weapon should work and how it functions in the game. That said I don't actually think this is a good argument against them, it's just another minor reason why I dislike them in the context of Halo
I'm saying, if you want to use your BR effectively at range, you have to fight the recoil if you want all your shots to land. which gets pretty cumbersome, especially when people are crouch strafing. with the pistol, there's much less to think about.

i think even without vertical recoil, the BR would have a final headshot perk. thats the nature of burstfire, you get 3 chances to land a bullet. you can just swipe.

as far as projectile speeds the CE magnum was projectile. it was fast enough you could crossmap someone on hangem high if you knew how to lead, but wouldn't really need to lead at all up close. i think that experience should be the baseline. BR would have faster bullet speed. then DMR. then sniper.

i get having a personal preference for hitscan, but i don't think it works well with the complicated approach to balancing.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
2,765
It is fun. The game plays so damn fast when their are no animations to pull you out of the action.
Ehhhhh, I wouldn't describe Halo 3 like that. Takes what feels like an eternity to switch some weapons and being able to shoot. The equip time for the Sword for example feels insanely long, especially after the snappy animations of Halo 2.

Halo 5 feels a lot faster and fluid in this regard. I think Halo 3 is sluggish and more methodical in its design compared to later games. Halo 1 you felt like a juggernaut but had some lengthy animations, whereas you had quicker animations but felt overall weaker in Halo 2. Halo 3 was arguably the worst of all words between the first three games lol. This doesn't take into account button combos and animation cancels either, which especially make the first two games faster.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,167
Ehhhhh, I wouldn't describe Halo 3 like that. Takes what feels like an eternity to switch some weapons and being able to shoot. The equip time for the Sword for example feels insanely long, especially after the snappy animations of Halo 2.

Halo 5 feels a lot faster and fluid in this regard. I think Halo 3 is sluggish and more methodical in its design compared to later games. Halo 1 you felt like a juggernaut but had some lengthy animations, whereas you had quicker animations but felt overall weaker in Halo 2. Halo 3 was arguably the worst of all words between the first three games lol. This doesn't take into account button combos and animation cancels either, which especially make the first two games faster.
Oh, I’m well aware that h3 feels like sluggish crap. I’m talking about the speed of the match- specifically MLG matches (where players hardly ever switch weapons anyway).

For example, one Match I saw was on heretic. A player got a triple kill while ascending to P3. Given the size of the map, the 10% speed boost means players are essentially sprinting all the time- but can still shoot. And no clamber meant that There wasn't a single second where he wasn't facing the action dealing damage.

In H5 taking that route probably would have played out more slowly. If he sprinted, then clambered, he wouldn't have gotten the 3 kills because he wouldn't be shooting anyone (he probably would have gotten killed). If he fought his way up there, it would have taken him much longer to get to p3 at BMS.

Then you extrapolate that across the entire match, and it just progresses more quickly- All 8 players, moving where they need to quickly, while facing the fight, gun ready to deal damage at any time.

But yes, H3 is the worst halo game in terms of responsiveness.
 
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