Halo |OT| She's Gone, Sir

Prinz Eugn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
845
We tested Magnum starts for months. I was one of the early proponents and eventually changed my mind after seeing players pick off warthog gunners from across the full length of Dead Heat. Love the Magnum but the magnetism toward gunners is stupid OP. One of our objectives with the playlist was to finally get players back in vehicles in objective modes. You can't do that when players spawn with a Magnum. If we had the ability to make weapon adjustments it would have been a different story.
Optimizing for the minuscule proportion of time a small proportion of players spend as a hog gunner versus the nearly everyone all the time using the spawned utility weapon, I'm going to have to call this an ill-conceived argument at best.

Couldn't they have thrown on some of the stronger Hog variants instead? Not even an ONI, there's the rally and sword hogs. Personally, I would trade not having the Hog on any map for Magnum starts.

The other justification in the update about people not picking up other weapons is moronic. Maybe it's because you spawned them with a fun, satisfying weapon? ...but I guess player enjoyment should not get in the way of design goals at 343i.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,022
Am I the only one who likes the current iteration of the BR?


Although to be fair I rarely play BtB so I can't really comment on its usage as a starting weapon there.
 

FUNKNOWN iXi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,735
I think if their data shows a general reluctance to use other loadout weapons with magnum starts - then they've failed to give those weapons enough utility.

Maybe underpowered isn't the correct word to use. But given the frequency of engagement types (close, mid, long) I can understand why people wouldn't pickup other loadout weapons given how shallow the their use cases are compared to the mag. But that's what happens when range & dps are the only pertinent factors when weapons are balanced.

I hope they take a long hard look at CE when balancing Infinite's suite.
I agree on the front that they could definitely improve the utility of weapons, without a doubt. Carbine would be cool to have a slowing effect similar to CE's Plasma Rifle/Pistol, the BR and DMR could be combined into a single weapon (Light Rifle functionality), the Light Rifle could be changed into something truly unique, etc.
The tests were open to anyone. We also invited dedicated BTB groups, pros, and streamers to sample the maps and provide feedback. I even put an invitation in here and received no responses.
Dang, I never saw that. Even so, that's still a small sample size for something so many people wanted to try.

What's done is done I guess, perhaps the increase of Magnum pickups will help, so I'll keep an open mind.
The other justification in the update about people not picking up other weapons is moronic. Maybe it's because you spawned them with a fun, satisfying weapon? ...but I guess player enjoyment should not get in the way of design goals at 343i.
Additionally, maybe they wanted to get acclimated with the Magnum in a BTB setting after years of having the BR. There's a multitude of reasons why people would want to keep a Magnum handy.

And I respect NOK for chiming in, it's just that I wish there was more of a willingness from 343 to try it as a gametype in rotation with BR starts.
 

NOKYARD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
469
We did try heaver variants of vehicles, and some maps still have them. Dead Heat has Rally Hog in Slayer games.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,642
I agree on the front that they could definitely improve the utility of weapons, without a doubt. Carbine would be cool to have a slowing effect similar to CE's Plasma Rifle/Pistol, the BR and DMR could be combined into a single weapon (Light Rifle functionality), the Light Rifle could be changed into something truly unique, etc.

Dang, I never saw that. Even so, that's still a small sample size for something so many people wanted to try.

What's done is done I guess, perhaps the increase of Magnum pickups will help, so I'll keep an open mind.

Additionally, maybe they wanted to get acclimated with the Magnum in a BTB setting after years of having the BR. There's a multitude of reasons why people would want to keep a Magnum handy.

And I respect NOK for chiming in, it's just that I wish there was more of a willingness from 343 to try it as a gametype in rotation with BR starts.
Absolutely. They definitely need to get back to giving weapons special effects.

The obvious ones are quick camo, speed dampening (like the OG PR), knock back (like the concussion rifle), secondary fire (like the OG boltshot).

They could experiment with things like area denial, comm hacking, mobility bonuses.

They could experiment with melee hitboxes.

Hell, I'd even be interested experimenting with some AAs and SAs coming back in the form of secondary fire modes for weapon pickups. (Like a PP that couldn't overcharge, but is coupled with a light shield, or a gun that wall hacks when smart-linked, but doesn't fire)

Like they should really go bonkers with the guns and stop focusing exclusively on how much damage they do and how much magnetism they have. Especially if they are going to have tons of guns like H5- don't just make them all unimaginative variants of base weapons.

If a guns effect breaks the bank, they can simply take it off the maps. Leave it for custom games.

But when the sandbox is so monotonous because every gun is just a reskin/retune of an existing archtypical weapon, that you have to prioritize arbitrary design goals over player satisfaction, then we're dealing with some flawed fundamentals.
 
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FUNKNOWN iXi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,735
One of my favorites: Energy Sword that can be used as a shield to block incoming fire.
Function: Hold melee button to hold Sword across torso, head still exposed for headshots. It consumes energy like the Plasma Pistol overcharge. Can sprint with it.​
Example:​
Here's another: Combine Grenade Launcher w/ Sticky Detonator.
Function: Press RT or Smart Scope to shoot sticky nade that sticks to any surface, press RT again to detonate (Sticky Detonator). Hold RT or hipfire to shoot bouncing grenade, release to explode (Grenade Launcer).​
Change the Scattershot to function more like Unreal's Flak Cannon.

So. Many. Possibilities.
 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,099
One of my favorites: Energy Sword that can be used as a shield to block incoming fire.
Function: Hold melee button to hold Sword across torso, head still exposed for headshots. It consumes energy like the Plasma Pistol overcharge. Can sprint with it.​
Example:​
Here's another: Combine Grenade Launcher w/ Sticky Detonator.
Function: Press RT or Smart Scope to shoot sticky nade that sticks to any surface, press RT again to detonate (Sticky Detonator). Hold RT or hipfire to shoot bouncing grenade, release to explode (Grenade Launcer).​
Change the Scattershot to function more like Unreal's Flak Cannon.

So. Many. Possibilities.
I hope Infinite gets creative with the new weapons in the game. Halo 4 and 5s weapons were literally reskinned versions of the UNSC weapons.
 

DemonCarnotaur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,777
I hope Infinite gets creative with the new weapons in the game. Halo 4 and 5s weapons were literally reskinned versions of the UNSC weapons.
I've always thought a grenade or weapon that caused a gravity vortex could be fun, especially if they really played around with how it works with momentum and physics.

Likewise, certain weapons that could serve a function (a way to work equipment back in, but expand on it) would be cool. Bubble shield gun, or a graplehook weapon.

Of course, this stuff would need to be carefully tested and balanced.
 

FUNKNOWN iXi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,735
I've always thought a grenade or weapon that caused a gravity vortex could be fun, especially if they really played around with how it works with momentum and physics.
Could be cool to have another function for thruster -> to break out of it and gain momentum.

Likewise, certain weapons that could serve a function (a way to work equipment back in, but expand on it) would be cool. Bubble shield gun, or a graplehook weapon.
I would love utilities to be another tier to weapons. Your suggestions would be cool, and the fact that they'd take up a weapon slot would be a decent way to balance it. Want to pick up the grappling hook that comes with 5 uses? Need to sacrifice one slot for it, although it'll still do a small amount of damage if hooked on an enemy. It'll be more useful thanks to its utility of fast traversal around maps and fun shenanigans of hooking yourself towards things (like vehicles to board) or grappling items to come to you.

Again.......... So. Many. Possibilities. I hope they really go crazy with the sandbox and not take the more conservative route in fear of backlash. As much as I think it'd be a good idea to combine the BR and DMR, I don't think there's any chance of it happening because those weapons have a history of established fandom within the franchise, which I don't think 343 is willing to risk being controversial with. I just hope they don't have that same mentality for new additions.
 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,099
Could be cool to have another function for thruster -> to break out of it and gain momentum.


I would love utilities to be another tier to weapons. Your suggestions would be cool, and the fact that they'd take up a weapon slot would be a decent way to balance it. Want to pick up the grappling hook that comes with 5 uses? Need to sacrifice one slot for it, although it'll still do a small amount of damage if hooked on an enemy. It'll be more useful thanks to its utility of fast traversal around maps and fun shenanigans of hooking yourself towards things (like vehicles to board) or grappling items to come to you.

Again.......... So. Many. Possibilities. I hope they really go crazy with the sandbox and not take the more conservative route in fear of backlash. As much as I think it'd be a good idea to combine the BR and DMR, I don't think there's any chance of it happening because those weapons have a history of established fandom within the franchise, which I don't think 343 is willing to risk being controversial with. I just hope they don't have that same mentality for new additions.
I think keeping the fan favorites in and not changing their look (like the original Rocket Launcher in Halo 5) while adding completely new weapon types with new abilities would be great. I agree that I think utilities like in Halo 3 and Reach would be nice. My ideal Halo Infinite would be a game where the base movement and gameplay is traditional but all of the power ups and movement is tied to pickups.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,642
I've always thought a grenade or weapon that caused a gravity vortex could be fun, especially if they really played around with how it works with momentum and physics.

Likewise, certain weapons that could serve a function (a way to work equipment back in, but expand on it) would be cool. Bubble shield gun, or a graplehook weapon.

Of course, this stuff would need to be carefully tested and balanced.
Could be cool to have another function for thruster -> to break out of it and gain momentum.


I would love utilities to be another tier to weapons. Your suggestions would be cool, and the fact that they'd take up a weapon slot would be a decent way to balance it. Want to pick up the grappling hook that comes with 5 uses? Need to sacrifice one slot for it, although it'll still do a small amount of damage if hooked on an enemy. It'll be more useful thanks to its utility of fast traversal around maps and fun shenanigans of hooking yourself towards things (like vehicles to board) or grappling items to come to you.

Again.......... So. Many. Possibilities. I hope they really go crazy with the sandbox and not take the more conservative route in fear of backlash. As much as I think it'd be a good idea to combine the BR and DMR, I don't think there's any chance of it happening because those weapons have a history of established fandom within the franchise, which I don't think 343 is willing to risk being controversial with. I just hope they don't have that same mentality for new additions.
I think keeping the fan favorites in and not changing their look (like the original Rocket Launcher in Halo 5) while adding completely new weapon types with new abilities would be great. I agree that I think utilities like in Halo 3 and Reach would be nice. My ideal Halo Infinite would be a game where the base movement and gameplay is traditional but all of the power ups and movement is tied to pickups.
Yes to all of this.

The coolest thing about the voids tear is the fun to be had with the physics of the vortex.

Would be so much cooler if it was a bit less effective as far as dealing damage, but still as great for disrupting the battlefield and providing a novel way to get around.

And yes, most abilities/equipment, could be much better balanced as perks of weapon pickups - and would make the choice to pickup up a weapon or not involve an more interesting compromise than anything we get in Halo 5.

Right now, most of the time the only consideration when choosing to pickup something is killtime vs effective range compared to what you have. Since the magnum is effective in both categories in most situations (as it should be), it's hard ever to justify dropping it. But If people were also mulling over gaining utility that can help the battle in other ways, they'd decision would become more interesting and the answer less obvious.

I feel like most of the "innovations" that have been added in attempts to avoid stagnation should have happened via additions to the weapons sandbox, not by adding or changing base mechanics.
 
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OP
OP
Poodlestrike

Poodlestrike

It's salt.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
6,555
Absolutely. They definitely need to get back to giving weapons special effects.

The obvious ones are quick camo, speed dampening (like the OG PR), knock back (like the concussion rifle), secondary fire (like the OG boltshot).

They could experiment with things like area denial, comm hacking, mobility bonuses.

They could experiment with melee hitboxes.

Hell, I'd even be interested experimenting with some AAs and SAs coming back in the form of secondary fire modes for weapon pickups. (Like a PP that couldn't overcharge, but is coupled with a light shield, or a gun that wall hacks when smart-linked, but doesn't fire)

Like they should really go bonkers with the guns and stop focusing exclusively on how much damage they do and how much magnetism they have. Especially if they are going to have tons of guns like H5- don't just make them all unimaginative variants of base weapons.

If a guns effect breaks the bank, they can simply take it off the maps. Leave it for custom games.

But when the sandbox is so monotonous because every gun is just a reskin/retune of an existing archtypical weapon, that you have to prioritize arbitrary design goals over player satisfaction, then we're dealing with some flawed fundamentals.
I agree with all of this. Weird weapon properties are the way to go wrt diversifying the sandbox and building out a genuinely differentiated suite of utility options.

Also, I know that this probably isn't what you man by "comm hacking," but it'd be incredible if one of the guns screwed up your system audio when you get hit with it, or at least killed your mic.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,642
I agree with all of this. Weird weapon properties are the way to go wrt diversifying the sandbox and building out a genuinely differentiated suite of utility options.

Also, I know that this probably isn't what you man by "comm hacking," but it'd be incredible if one of the guns screwed up your system audio when you get hit with it, or at least killed your mic.
I was purposely vague about hacking comms because there are a million different things they could do- some potentially great others some probably awful. But yeah, audio and mic would be on the table. It could be something as simple as getting headshot temporarily degrades the HUD or leaks your teammates location on enenies mini map. Who knows. I just want them to be more imaginative than "this is just like that other gun, but we trade some magnetism for damage"

And any gun that comes out shitty for standard play could probably be interesting for forge creations
 

Prinz Eugn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
845
Holy crap you are right. Looks like i sent out invites everywhere but here. Sorry about that.
Ah, oh well, not sure I could've dedicated the time personally anyway.

Sorry if I'm being too rude, I really appreciate all the continued work that's gone into 5 despite it being so long in the tooth. It's great the maps even made it into Super Fiesta. But man, the BR really detracts from the experience in normal BTB. I really hope Slipspace gives forgers better access to modifiers so ridiculous decisions like Hogs vs Magnums aren't necessary.
 

Ryouji Gunblade

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
4,107
California
One of my favorites: Energy Sword that can be used as a shield to block incoming fire.
Function: Hold melee button to hold Sword across torso, head still exposed for headshots. It consumes energy like the Plasma Pistol overcharge. Can sprint with it.​
Example:​
Here's another: Combine Grenade Launcher w/ Sticky Detonator.
Function: Press RT or Smart Scope to shoot sticky nade that sticks to any surface, press RT again to detonate (Sticky Detonator). Hold RT or hipfire to shoot bouncing grenade, release to explode (Grenade Launcer).​
Change the Scattershot to function more like Unreal's Flak Cannon.

So. Many. Possibilities.
That's a sword block I can be down for. Imagine infection with this.
 

Moose

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,696
So with Halo Infinite's art style shift, who wants an in-universe explanation as to why everything looks different--Or looks more like Halo 1-3 again?I don't think it's needed and I would actually caution against it. The precedent was already set by Halo 4 where they barely acknowledged the changes. Any explanation would likely come of as contrived as the change was made from fan feedback not story motivation. I've seen suggestions like, "Since Cortana took over the Guardians and bombarded the UNSC they have to use old tech" but that just sound superfluous.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,642
So with Halo Infinite's art style shift, who wants an in-universe explanation as to why everything looks different--Or looks more like Halo 1-3 again?I don't think it's needed and I would actually caution against it. The precedent was already set by Halo 4 where they barely acknowledged the changes. Any explanation would likely come of as contrived as the change was made from fan feedback not story motivation. I've seen suggestions like, "Since Cortana took over the Guardians and bombarded the UNSC they have to use old tech" but that just sound superfluous.
I hope they don't bother trying to explain a thing. Just chalk it up to artistic liberty
 

Breqesk

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,795
I assume some people are attached to it, so this is probably a selfish wish, but if they got rid of the Infinity along with the art style change, I’d be so happy. I just hate that ship, from the dull name to the equally dull design.
 

Moose

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,696
I assume some people are attached to it, so this is probably a selfish wish, but if they got rid of the Infinity along with the art style change, I’d be so happy. I just hate that ship, from the dull name to the equally dull design.
You go from names like Long Night of Solace, Forward Unto Dawn, Pillar of Autumn to...Infinity. Yeah the ship's name isn't great. But the design is more or less in line with other UNSC ships while its scale may seem absurd. I could see them destroying Infinity at the beginning when you crash land on an open world Halo hearkening back to CE.
 

Rodeo Clown

Member
Dec 14, 2017
931
So with Halo Infinite's art style shift, who wants an in-universe explanation as to why everything looks different--Or looks more like Halo 1-3 again?I don't think it's needed and I would actually caution against it. The precedent was already set by Halo 4 where they barely acknowledged the changes. Any explanation would likely come of as contrived as the change was made from fan feedback not story motivation. I've seen suggestions like, "Since Cortana took over the Guardians and bombarded the UNSC they have to use old tech" but that just sound superfluous.
I've assumed that if they try to explain it, they'll go for something like that. Chief has to use an old set of armor so it isn't vulnerable to the Created or something. I hope they don't, though. Cortana saying she rewrote his firmware in H4 to explain the art design shift is kinda bad, really.

But then, this is the company that tried to set the multiplayer as an in universe thing and give it a lore reason to exist, so who can say.
 

Breqesk

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,795
You go from names like Long Night of Solace, Forward Unto Dawn, Pillar of Autumn to...Infinity. Yeah the ship's name isn't great. But the design is more or less in line with other UNSC ships while its scale may seem absurd. I could see them destroying Infinity at the beginning when you crash land on an open world Halo hearkening back to CE.
It’s not that the design doesn’t fit the whole UNSC aesthetic or anything—I just personally find it dull, when contrasted with ships like the Pillar of Autumn or In Amber Clad. They’re all collections of grey shapes, but those two just, I dunno, did more with it. I think it’s partly the way Infinity’s basically just a huge rectangle in space, whereas the Autumn, like, tapered towards the front with all the different segments, and In Amber Clad pretty much looked like a gun with engines stuck to the sides.

It’s like how, while the old Pelicans and the new Pelicans look super similar, overall, I just think the old ones look so much better.

And yeah, the name’s the worst bit—one word, and not even a particularly fun one. Every time I read or hear it, it just makes me think about how there’s a ship in Alistair Reynolds’ Revelation Space books called Nostalgia for Infinity. A much better, and much more ‘Halo-y’, name.

I can think of a lot of different ways they could potentially write it out, either between games or at the start of Infinite as you suggest, but since we’ve got basically no idea where they’re gonna take the story - or, at least, I don’t; dunno if there’s been any credible leaks or hints - it’s hard to say if they’re planning to.
 
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Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,099
So with Halo Infinite's art style shift, who wants an in-universe explanation as to why everything looks different--Or looks more like Halo 1-3 again?I don't think it's needed and I would actually caution against it. The precedent was already set by Halo 4 where they barely acknowledged the changes. Any explanation would likely come of as contrived as the change was made from fan feedback not story motivation. I've seen suggestions like, "Since Cortana took over the Guardians and bombarded the UNSC they have to use old tech" but that just sound superfluous.
If they want to explain it with some lore, sure. But I think 343s fixation on having everything tied into lore is one of their biggest flaws and why Halo 4 and 5 both have serious issues. I would rather have fun gameplay and a bunch of master chiefs running around a multiplayer map then gameplay that is tied in with lore and a bunch of generic Spartans who sound like regular soldier bros talking for an entire match.
 

Moose

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,696
If they want to explain it with some lore, sure. But I think 343s fixation on having everything tied into lore is one of their biggest flaws and why Halo 4 and 5 both have serious issues. I would rather have fun gameplay and a bunch of master chiefs running around a multiplayer map then gameplay that is tied in with lore and a bunch of generic Spartans who sound like regular soldier bros talking for an entire match.
I'd agree with this spirit of fun > lore every time. Especially in multiplayer where there's no story to begin with.
 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,099
I'd agree with this spirit of fun > lore every time. Especially in multiplayer where there's no story to begin with.
Yeah I was pretty turned off by the idea that Halo 5 multiplayer all took place in a kind of simulation on the Infinity and that Spartans were just practicing combat or whatever it was. Lore doesn’t really effect the game but it just felt very uninteresting to me.
 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,099
I am happy that they listened to feedback and the art style seems to be returning to the original trilogy. I think while Halo 4 and 5 are very good looking games in terms of fidelity, I think they are artistically boring and won’t age very well. I think a game like Halo 3 looks significantly better than both games.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,280
Was watching a video on cut content from Halo 2 and interestingly Bungie was considering adding sprint to the game by having it kick in automatically after about four seconds of movement, probably to help ease longer vehicle sections on foot like in the New Mombasa levels. For Infinite, I wonder if this could be implemented in some way depending on 343i's approach to level design. For example, let's say they go about it in a more open world way: if levels are connected in a way that focuses on vehicle traversal where it may be tedious to go about it on foot, what if in those specific areas a similar function would kick in where the player would automatically sprint through the section? Not sure if this is the absolute best way to approach this, but could be an interesting option.
 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,099
How much gameplay does everyone think we will see or Infinite at E3? I’m assuming we see some of whatever the open worldish stuff is. I’m hoping to see a little bit of multiplayer
 

Breqesk

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,795
I'm mainly in it for the campaign, so it's gonna be pretty difficult to figure out if the game's worth paying attention to or not before release, irritatingly.

My biggest problem with Halo 5 was the way it tried to tell its story - everything just felt so disjointed, to the point where I never got even a little invested in what was going on; I'd actually like to go back and figure out how to describe exactly what the problem was better, because I'm still not really able to articulate it well - and I can't really think of a good way for them to show that that's definitely not going to happen again short of releasing multiple hours of campaign gameplay. A few nice cutscenes won't do it.

It doesn't help that their main response to the criticism of 5's campaign seems to have been to double down on the Chief. Like, don't get me wrong, I like the Chief - tho I'm also probably one of the few people who wouldn't actually mind Halo ultimately moving on from him; I loved getting to make my own Noble 6 to play as in Reach, for instance - but it's entirely possible to make a good Halo campaign without him--just adding more Chief to Halo 5 wouldn't have fixed the issues I had with it.

As for MP... I dunno, a properly supported BTB mode, no sprint/all gun ADS, and the removal of loot boxes - the randomness of REQs ultimately killed the progression in Halo 5 for me; you can only roll the dice and get nothing but useless Warzone junk and armour you don't actually want so many times before you get bored - would certainly get me to play more MP, but it's not gonna be the main draw for me regardless of what they do.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,642
You go from names like Long Night of Solace, Forward Unto Dawn, Pillar of Autumn to...Infinity. Yeah the ship's name isn't great. But the design is more or less in line with other UNSC ships while its scale may seem absurd. I could see them destroying Infinity at the beginning when you crash land on an open world Halo hearkening back to CE.
Honestly, seeing Infinity get royally fucked up would be pretty damn cool. The implications of it would be set an awesome tone and it would be cathartic for anyone who preferred when humanity was on the back foot
 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,099
I just want Reach on Xbox one. Been playing a lot of Halo 3 lately but I’m excited to see what Reach looks like without motion blur and in 60 FPS
 

fuchsdh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,905
Definitely going to do another run through the campaigns once Reach hits. The games on a reasonable difficulty (even Reach) are some nice comfort food.
 

Breqesk

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,795
Reach is one of my favourite Halo campaigns tbh, tho I do think it's genuinely better on Normal than Heroic.

(Still haven't tried Legendary... I don't imagine it's much fun.)
 

Forerunner

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
5,974
San Diego
Reach and H5 are the only ones I never did a Legendary run. All the others I did for the MCC achievements. I'll probably do Reach once it comes to PC. I'll never do a H5 run. Playing through once was enough, plus you don't get crap for Legendary.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,022
Halo 5 on legendary is the most enjoyable of the lot.

Your weapons actually still work so you don't need to resort to the noob combo the entire time.