Halo |OT| She's Gone, Sir

Akai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,590
I don't at present, and unfortunately like I've spoke to in the past, even though it's easier than ever to find map content, it's increasingly difficult to find the actual super good stuff. That comes with any saturated market I suppose.

I think forgehub has ways to filter like most downloaded or highest rated though I think? Although not the best system, I think you'll find some gems
That's largely my problem with it. Too many results and sometimes even completely unrelated results.

Will probably have to go through Forgehub then. Thanks.

I still feel like 343 should have kept competitive play for H5 alive until Infinite released, or at least for 2019.

Cutting off your current game 2 years before the next game is strange.
Considering that Halo: Infinite has a longer dev cycle than your usual Halo game, I don't think this is strange at all. Plus, it's still a business and they probably don't want to lose too much money on these kind of events, especially if participant and viewer turnout are declining. Sucks, for those that care, but also understandable from a 343i/MS perspective.

I honestly thought that others would host Halo 5 tournaments, especially since we got the option to run our own Local Server from the W10 PC app.
 

BizzyBum

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,428
New York
Considering that Halo: Infinite has a longer dev cycle than your usual Halo game, I don't think this is strange at all. Plus, it's still a business and they probably don't want to lose too much money on these kind of events, especially if participant and viewer turnout are declining. Sucks, for those that care, but also understandable from a 343i/MS perspective.
I guess, but you can't tell me their Halo 3 MCC tournaments so far have been better. The twitch viewerships have been abysmal, way worse than H5. Most people want classic style Halo, but packaged in a new, fresh game. No one wants to watch Halo 3 tournaments in 2019 minus the biggest diehards. Maybe as like a special, side tourney thing but not focused on for 2 years while waiting for Infinite.

They didn't have to go ham with H5 for the last two years with million dollar finals, it could have been lowkey, online, anything really to keep the game going a bit.
 

Ukumio

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
580
Australia
I guess, but you can't tell me their Halo 3 MCC tournaments so far have been better. The twitch viewerships have been abysmal, way worse than H5. Most people want classic style Halo, but packaged in a new, fresh game. No one wants to watch Halo 3 tournaments in 2019 minus the biggest diehards. Maybe as like a special, side tourney thing but not focused on for 2 years while waiting for Infinite.

They didn't have to go ham with H5 for the last two years with million dollar finals, it could have been lowkey, online, anything really to keep the game going a bit.
I understand this statement to be true for most people but I still don't understand the logic of it. If people want basically the same gameplay, with the same people playing then what does it matter what it looks like. I guess the logic of it comes down to the fact that the maps and strategies for those maps have been known for a decade or more so its a bit stale.

Personally I like Halo 5 MP more than I like classic Halo MP. Yes, I'm a sprint person. I played Halo campaign's since around 2005 but I never got into Multiplayer until Reach (blame it on the fact that it took that long for rural Australian internet to catch up with the rest of the world) and so I've always had sprint in MP. So I'm not really looking forward to the gameplay regressing to something I don't enjoy now (and never had the opportunity to enjoy when it was current).
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,151
I understand this statement to be true for most people but I still don't understand the logic of it. If people want basically the same gameplay, with the same people playing then what does it matter what it looks like. I guess the logic of it comes down to the fact that the maps and strategies for those maps have been known for a decade or more so its a bit stale.

Personally I like Halo 5 MP more than I like classic Halo MP. Yes, I'm a sprint person. I played Halo campaign's since around 2005 but I never got into Multiplayer until Reach (blame it on the fact that it took that long for rural Australian internet to catch up with the rest of the world) and so I've always had sprint in MP. So I'm not really looking forward to the gameplay regressing to something I don't enjoy now (and never had the opportunity to enjoy when it was current).
Perhaps you feel this way because you prefer H5 and your personal preference makes it tough to check your bias.

You like Halo 5, but would you be happy if rather getting an improvement on Halo5's formula (better graphics, QOL improvements, New weapons, New maps, New enemies and new, etc stories), you were told to just be happy with playing Halo5 for the next 12 years? Most likely not.

Also, who says the same people will be playing? There's millions of gamers who've never played a classic Halo, a no one has played a new Halo game built upon classic fundamentals - because such a game doesn't exist. How can you assume new people wouldn't be into it?

Finally, you've got to drop the idea that wanting a game built in the vein of a classic Halo, means that people want "basically the same gameplay" or a "regression". What they want is a game that innovates within the principles established in the classic titles. Just because later Halo's implemented "new" things, doesn't mean that these new things amount to "progress". So removing them doesn't necessarily amount to "regression".
 

HTupolev

Member
Oct 27, 2017
699
I understand this statement to be true for most people but I still don't understand the logic of it. If people want basically the same gameplay, with the same people playing then what does it matter what it looks like.
Saying that you want "classic Halo gameplay" doesn't mean that you want the same gameplay as Halo 3. I mean, the "classic Halo gameplay" bucket usually includes at least the original trilogy, and there are very large differences between how those three games play.
Very loosely speaking, I think "classic Halo gameplay" tends to refer to a methodical rhythm and elegant control mechanics, and minimal application of whacky modifiers. There's a lot of space under this umbrella.

As for looks mattering, it matters a lot! Audiovisual aesthetics are a huge part of the appeal of anything, play a central role in how the player receives information, and indirectly influence things like map design.
 

Ukumio

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
580
Australia
Also, who says the same people will be playing? There's millions of gamers who've never played a classic Halo, a no one has played a new Halo game built upon classic fundamentals - because such a game doesn't exist. How can you assume new people wouldn't be into it?
I meant in terms of esports/tournaments. You don't see too many new players, and when you do its normally 1-2 a season.

You like Halo 5, but would you be happy if rather getting an improvement on Halo5's formula (better graphics, QOL improvements, New weapons, New maps, New enemies and new, etc stories), you were told to just be happy with playing Halo5 for the next 12 years? Most likely not.
Again, I was talking about in terms of esports/tournaments, and personally yes, I'd be fine watching Halo 5 tournaments for another two years until Infinite releases (which is the context of the original quote).
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,151
I meant in terms of esports/tournaments. You don't see too many new players, and when you do its normally 1-2 a season.

Again, I was talking about in terms of esports/tournaments, and personally yes, I'd be fine watching Halo 5 tournaments for another two years until Infinite releases (which is the context of the original quote).
Woosh!

My bad man, I got all in my feels😅

I think with competitive Halo in H5, the gas just ran out.

I think ESL refusing for so long to embrace the grassroots mortally wounded it before it even started. The weapon tuning and lack of viable competitive maps and gamemodes didn't help either. Many top Halo players were tired of the game. At the point where they shifted to H3, I don't think either game would be attracting many new faces.
 
OP
OP
Poodlestrike

Poodlestrike

There is much talk, and I have listened...
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,127
I honestly don't get this argument. H5 Cortana is changed, but not in a way that's like... Totally alien to her character or origins. It's not like she's a cackling puppy stomping lunatic. She made the decision that humanity had to be saved from itself and she had the means to do so, so she did. It's a very Halsey-esque ends justify the means choice to make, and since she's literally grown from the woman's brain... Yeah.

This obsession some of the fandom has with trying to fix fic Cortana bugs me, but since I guess 343 decided to go with it, I already lost this argument. Ah well.
 

op_ivy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,780
I honestly don't get this argument. H5 Cortana is changed, but not in a way that's like... Totally alien to her character or origins. It's not like she's a cackling puppy stomping lunatic. She made the decision that humanity had to be saved from itself and she had the means to do so, so she did. It's a very Halsey-esque ends justify the means choice to make, and since she's literally grown from the woman's brain... Yeah.

This obsession some of the fandom has with trying to fix fic Cortana bugs me, but since I guess 343 decided to go with it, I already lost this argument. Ah well.
i agree. hope its not a quick fix at least.
 

Ukumio

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
580
Australia
I honestly don't get this argument. H5 Cortana is changed, but not in a way that's like... Totally alien to her character or origins. It's not like she's a cackling puppy stomping lunatic. She made the decision that humanity had to be saved from itself and she had the means to do so, so she did. It's a very Halsey-esque ends justify the means choice to make, and since she's literally grown from the woman's brain... Yeah.

This obsession some of the fandom has with trying to fix fic Cortana bugs me, but since I guess 343 decided to go with it, I already lost this argument. Ah well.
I think it comes from the fact that, in a lot of people's minds, her death was handled perfectly. It was a great goodbye to a fan-loved character in the vein of Tony Stark in Endgame (both had me personally tearing up). Her return, as a villain no less, makes that death lose a lot of the weight it once held.

While I agree its believable for her character, the fact that she was used so soon after we said good-bye leaves a bad taste in a lot of fans mouths and wanting to find some excuse to return Cortana to the one that died in Halo 4 is understandable.

I've expressed it elsewhere but I honestly would have preferred if they used Halsey instead. Similar connection to Chief (mother--like figure, but to all Spartan-II's), similar motives (the fact that she started the Spartan-II program in the first place shows she is willing to protect humanity no matter the cost), and she had opportunity since she was off galavanting with the Didact's Hand, could have easily used the Key to stumble across an access point to the Domain or to claim the Mantle or something. A lot of Halo 5 would basically be the same. The only thing lost would be the Created as a "race".
 

fuchsdh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,050
I honestly don't get this argument. H5 Cortana is changed, but not in a way that's like... Totally alien to her character or origins. It's not like she's a cackling puppy stomping lunatic. She made the decision that humanity had to be saved from itself and she had the means to do so, so she did. It's a very Halsey-esque ends justify the means choice to make, and since she's literally grown from the woman's brain... Yeah.

This obsession some of the fandom has with trying to fix fic Cortana bugs me, but since I guess 343 decided to go with it, I already lost this argument. Ah well.
I dunno if 343 has actually decided to go with it, but they've definitely soft-pedaled their approach. They went from Frankie pissing off everyone because he pointed out people were seeing her in 5 in the most blanket black-and-white terms to coming out with comics and lore drops that legitimized the alternate viewpoint.

And yeah, stuff like "Human Weakness" and all of Halsey's character arc and what she says in "Halo 5" makes it pretty clear that Cortana's just doing what she was made to do now that she has the means. But "evil" waifus aren't allowed.
 

Cranster

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,362
I honestly don't get this argument. H5 Cortana is changed, but not in a way that's like... Totally alien to her character or origins. It's not like she's a cackling puppy stomping lunatic. She made the decision that humanity had to be saved from itself and she had the means to do so, so she did. It's a very Halsey-esque ends justify the means choice to make, and since she's literally grown from the woman's brain... Yeah.

This obsession some of the fandom has with trying to fix fic Cortana bugs me, but since I guess 343 decided to go with it, I already lost this argument. Ah well.
It's because Cortana would never deliberately kill innocent people in order to so. The thing is though 343 have been hinting towards her being a rampant fragment since tales from slipspace was released.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,151
I honestly don't get this argument. H5 Cortana is changed, but not in a way that's like... Totally alien to her character or origins. It's not like she's a cackling puppy stomping lunatic. She made the decision that humanity had to be saved from itself and she had the means to do so, so she did. It's a very Halsey-esque ends justify the means choice to make, and since she's literally grown from the woman's brain... Yeah.

This obsession some of the fandom has with trying to fix fic Cortana bugs me, but since I guess 343 decided to go with it, I already lost this argument. Ah well.
Cortana's character wasn't developed into that of a person who could callously carry out the atrocities she pulled off in H5. There's no way around this fact.

It reminds me of a certain TV show, where a main protagonist, in an instant, becomes the worst villain that the universe had ever known. Sure, there are some examples of foreshadowing. Sure there were some conspicuous hints dropped. But foreshadowing isn't a replacement for character development. when writers try to use it as such, then character choices feel unnatural - as if they are occurring for the convenience of writers trying to hit certain plot points, rather than character decisions feeling like are the result of that character's personality and agency.

There's nothing that anyone can say we learned about Cortana's character prior to her departure in Halo 4, that would have suggested that her gaining access to the domain and powerful forerunner weapons would lead to her murdering millions of innocent men, women, and children.

This decision wasn't even Halsey-esque. The point of the Spartan program was to minimize collateral damage by creating super-soldiers that could target enemy leadership with pinpoint precision. Cortana indiscriminately murdered civilians as a show of force.

Beyond that, even if you COULD argue that Cortana's actions were a result of her similarities to Halsey, you CAN'T argue that the similarity that would allow this behavior was satisfactorily explored in any Halo game.

Cortana in Halo 5 is simply bad writing. it's not inherently bad because 343 is behind it - It's bad anytime anyone handles characters this way. The ONLY way to somewhat salvage H5s story is if it turned out the person who did this wasn't Cortana - but someone who looked and sounded like her. That's why fans gravitate to the fragment idea.

Alternatively, 343 could expect the consumer to simply accept that this is Cortana now, and start properly developing the character from that point on. It won't retroactively spare H5s poor characterization, but it isn't impossible to tell good stores with what we now have established.
 
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nillapuddin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,104
Cortana's character wasn't developed into that of a person who could callously carry out the atrocities she pulled off in H5. There's no way around this fact.

It reminds me of a certain TV show, where a main protagonist, in an instant, becomes the worst villain that the universe had ever known. Sure, there are some examples of foreshadowing. Sure there were some conspicuous hints dropped. But foreshadowing isn't a replacement for character development. when writers try to use it as such, then character choices feel unnatural - as if they are occurring for the convenience of writers trying to hit certain plot points, rather than character decisions feeling like are the result of that character's personality and agency.

There's nothing that anyone can say we learned about Cortana's character prior to her departure in Halo 4, that would have suggested that her gaining access to the domain and powerful forerunner weapons would lead to her murdering millions of innocent men, women, and children.

This decision wasn't even Halsey-esque. The point of the Spartan program was to minimize collateral damage by creating super-soldiers that could target enemy leadership with pinpoint precision. Cortana indiscriminately murdered civilians as a show of force.

Beyond that, even if you COULD argue that Cortana's actions were a result of her similarities to Halsey, you CAN'T argue that the similarity that would allow this behavior was satisfactorily explored in any Halo game.

Cortana in Halo 5 is simply bad writing. it's not inherently bad because 343 is behind it - It's bad anytime anyone handles characters this way. The ONLY way to somewhat salvage H5s story is if it turned out the person who did this wasn't Cortana - but someone who looked and sounded like her. That's why fans gravitate to the fragment idea.

Alternatively, 343 could expect the consumer to simply accept that this is Cortana now, and start properly developing the character from that point on. It won't retroactively spare H5s poor characterization, but it isn't impossible to tell good stores with what we know have established.
TRUP 2020

#MCGA
 
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Samurai G0SU

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,008
Denver, CO
no, FEEL THE BERN and have cortana come flying in on thousands of Valkyries!!! She will rescue ALL SPECIES from the doom with paid vacations to every GRUNT utopia in the known galaxy!
 

Green

Member
Oct 27, 2017
791
Using secret high-tech guardians to police the population in the name of future peace sounds like a pretty Halsey approach to me - I don't think she was above killing innocents, she kidnapped hundreds of innocent children and doomed many of them to their deaths.

That said, I'm much more interested in the Cortana-fragment(s) exploration.
 

Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,840
The halsey esque explanation makes the most sense and fits really well

The outlier is the stupid ass Halo 4 ending
 

Karl2177

Member
Oct 25, 2017
845
The halsey esque explanation makes the most sense and fits really well

The outlier is the stupid ass Halo 4 ending
I don't know jack about the lore nowadays, but I always thought it was weird ending a game with a computer program jumping at Voldemort with hair plugs and bdsm-ing him to the bridge while you shove a grenade into him.
 

fuchsdh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,050
I think it comes from the fact that, in a lot of people's minds, her death was handled perfectly. It was a great goodbye to a fan-loved character in the vein of Tony Stark in Endgame (both had me personally tearing up). Her return, as a villain no less, makes that death lose a lot of the weight it once held.

While I agree its believable for her character, the fact that she was used so soon after we said good-bye leaves a bad taste in a lot of fans mouths and wanting to find some excuse to return Cortana to the one that died in Halo 4 is understandable.

I've expressed it elsewhere but I honestly would have preferred if they used Halsey instead. Similar connection to Chief (mother--like figure, but to all Spartan-II's), similar motives (the fact that she started the Spartan-II program in the first place shows she is willing to protect humanity no matter the cost), and she had opportunity since she was off galavanting with the Didact's Hand, could have easily used the Key to stumble across an access point to the Domain or to claim the Mantle or something. A lot of Halo 5 would basically be the same. The only thing lost would be the Created as a "race".
The problem is Halsey has passed the point in her arc where it would make sense. She renounced the greater good explicitly in First Strike and went AWOL, got railroaded, imprisoned, and scapegoated by the government she worked for. She really mostly seems to be working for her own ends and that of her Spartans at this point. Going galactic isn't in the cards for her.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,151
Nah, Cortana in H5 isn't Halsey-esque.

Halsey is cut-throat, but also calculated, discrete and has a vested interest in minimizing the loss of human life. Halsey's uses her technical prowess and misdirection to secure her advantages, not unsolicited violence.

In the years I've observed Cortana and Halsey's work, NOTHING suggested that either one of them would have the capacity launch preemptive deadly strikes against unsuspecting population centers.

Neither Halsey not Cortana would fit as Halo 5's villain without some serious changes to hire the villain was developed. Whats the point of even using an existing character of they are just gonna act brand new?
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,607
Halsey might not have done what Cortana did in 5.

However, she is incredibly unethical. Cortana's aims in 5 are a twisted attempt to save humanity. That's very similar to what Halsey did with the Spartans.

Nah, Cortana in H5 isn't Halsey-esque.

Halsey is cut-throat, but also calculated, discrete and has a vested interest in minimizing the loss of human life. Halsey's uses her technical prowess and misdirection to secure her advantages, not unsolicited violence.

In the years I've observed Cortana and Halsey's work, NOTHING suggested that either one of them would have the capacity launch preemptive deadly strikes against unsuspecting population centers.

Neither Halsey not Cortana would fit as Halo 5's villain without some serious changes to hire the villain was developed. Whats the point of even using an existing character of they are just gonna act brand new?
Pretty sure kidnapping 6 year olds and effectively torturing them counts as unsolicited violence.

What Cortana did in 5 isn't really all that worse ethically. It's just on a much grander scale. I don't think it's a stretch to see that an image of Halsey's mind which has been twisted and pulled apart by rampancy could see that as a reasonable action.
 
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Welfare

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,751
I wonder if Cortana was always planned to be the villain when 343 were just making a trilogy, or if Halo 5 was some gross over correction after Spartan Ops failed and they cut down all they could from Halo 4. (Jul, Majestic, Didact)

Should have just kept her dead. If Halo Infinite is about finding the one good fragment of Cortana then the 343 campaigns have been wasted. Move on already.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,151
Halsey might not have done what Cortana did in 5.

However, she is incredibly unethical. Cortana's aims in 5 are a twisted attempt to save humanity. That's very similar to what Halsey did with the Spartans.

Pretty sure kidnapping 6 year olds and effectively torturing them counts as unsolicited violence.
I mean, unethical actions for the greater good is the motivation for a number of characters- is Halsey-esque synonym for unethical? That's rather broad.

Halsey kidnapped & experimented on kids, turning them into child soldiers. That's insanely fucked up. But it isn't somehow analogous to collapsing entire cities.

Why couldn't Cortana use her AI cohorts to trick affected regions into evacuation procedures so that she could extract Guardians w/o loss of life? That's more like what Halsey would have done. It's also more like what Cortana would have done.

Cortana wasn't aiming to save Humanity -humanity wasn't on an imminent path to self destruction. If anything, they were on a path clear path towards dominating the galaxy. They were days away to seeing the remaining Covenant destroyed. Cortana simply usurped humanity's position.

When Halsey created the Spartan II program, humanity for on a path towards a devastating loss of human life.
 
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jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,607
I means there are tons of unethical actions from a number of characters- is Halsey-esque synonym for unethical? That's rather broad.

Halsey kidnapped & experimented on kids, turning them into child soldiers. That's insanely fucked up. But it isn't somehow analogous to collapsing entire cities
It doesn't matter whether it's analogous or not. It shows us what her character is like. It shows that she is willing to be incredibly unethical to achieve what she believes is for the greater good.

That's exactly what Cortana is doing.

Personally, I don't think it would be particularly out of character for Halsey to do the same as what Cortana did if she were given the means.

If she's willing to kidnap, torture and kill children just to create some soldiers why wouldn't she be willing to sacrifice a few backwater cities to create galaxy wide peace?
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,151
It doesn't matter whether it's analogous or not. It shows us what her character is like. It shows that she is willing to be incredibly unethical to achieve what she believes is for the greater good.

That's exactly what Cortana is doing.

Personally, I don't think it would be particularly out of character for Halsey to do the same as what Cortana did if she were given the means.

If she's willing to kidnap, torture and kill children just to create some soldiers why wouldn't she be willing to sacrifice a few backwater cities to create galaxy wide peace?
People are literally saying Cortana's actions are Halsey-esque... How can being analogous not matter?

Either Cortana is acting as Halsey would or she isn't.

Halsey's motivation behind the Spartan program was to avoid using WMDs and end a War quickly using efficient tactical strikes to apprehend high value targets with minimal collateral damage.

Cortana approach is the exact opposite.

The comparison between the two begins and ends with "they'll do unethical things to achieve what they believe is the greater good"... But that's broad as hell, and describes too many characters in this franchise to attribute to a connection to Halsey.
 
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Cranster

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,362
I wonder if Cortana was always planned to be the villain when 343 were just making a trilogy, or if Halo 5 was some gross over correction after Spartan Ops failed and they cut down all they could from Halo 4. (Jul, Majestic, Didact)

Should have just kept her dead. If Halo Infinite is about finding the one good fragment of Cortana then the 343 campaigns have been wasted. Move on already.
I read an article back in late 2015 or so that they did apparently have Halo 5's plot threads in mind before they even wrote Halo 4's ending.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,607
People are literally saying Cortana's actions are Halsey-esque... How can being analogous not matter?

Either Cortana is acting as Halsey would or she isn't.

Halsey's motivation behind the Spartan program was to avoid using WMDs and end a War quickly using efficient tactical strikes to apprehend high value targets with minimal collateral damage.

Cortana approach is the exact opposite.

The comparison between the two begins and ends with "they'll do unethical things to achieve what they believe is the greater good"... But that's broad as hell, and describes too many characters in this franchise to attribute to a connection to Halsey.
I'm saying what Cortana did is exactly what I think Halsey would do in the same position. Just because the actions aren't analogous doesn't mean they're out of character. Halsey may not have tried to enslave an entire population previously but we have seen what her character is like. Halsey is devoid of moral or ethical obligations. Her character is straight up disgusting.

She literally kidnapped, tortured, murdered and enslaved children. Her motivation being to end a single war. Is it really such a big step to create a police state to permanently end all wars? The approach might be different but the goals are the same. And we already know that Halsey believes that the ends justify the means. If she can convince herself that it's okay to murder and torture children to stop a war then she can also convince herself that it's okay to murder thousands to stop all wars.

Also the connection to Halsey is already attributed because Cortana is literally an image of Halsey's mind. The Spartan program shows what Halsey is capable of given the means and thus, by extension, shows us what Cortana is capable of.

There's also the fact that this Cortana is one which has been twisted and pulled apart by rampancy and then has been given complete power. Combine that with the fact that Cortana is based off of Halsey and the idea that she would be willing to commit some atrocities to achieve what she believes is good is not at all a stretch.
 
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Akai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,590
I'm still a fan of the "logic plague" theory, when it comes to evil Cortana. Also, this is something that happened, which could explain the "Infinite" subtitle:

"You cannot stop me... I will sift it from you before you finally die, or you can surrender it and have what you always wanted—infinite life, infinite knowledge, and infinite companionship." — The Gravemind attempting to persuade Cortana to give up her struggle.

Quote from Halo: Evolutions, "Human Weakness", pages 392-393
Kinda interesting that Cortana always wanted these things and that the Gravemind is aware of it.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,151
I'm saying what Cortana did is exactly what I think Halsey would do in the same position. Just because the actions aren't analogous doesn't mean they're out of character. Halsey may not have tried to enslave an entire population previously but we have seen what her character is like. Halsey is devoid of moral or ethical obligations. Her character is straight up disgusting.

She literally kidnapped, tortured, murdered and enslaved children. Her motivation being to end a single war. Is it really such a big step to create a police state to permanently end all wars? The approach might be different but the goals are the same. And we already know that Halsey believes that the ends justify the means. If she can convince herself that it's okay to murder and torture children to stop a war then she can also convince herself that it's okay to murder thousands to stop all wars.

Also the connection to Halsey is already attributed because Cortana is literally an image of Halsey's mind. The Spartan program shows what Halsey is capable of given the means and thus, by extension, shows us what Cortana is capable of.

There's also the fact that this Cortana is one which has been twisted and pulled apart by rampancy and then has been given complete power. Combine that with the fact that Cortana is based off of Halsey and the idea that she would be willing to commit some atrocities to achieve what she believes is good is not at all a stretch.
Yeah I think we'll just have to disagree on principle. I don't think Halsey would have done this.

If Halsey calculated that she needed these Guardians to preserve galactic peace - if the total absence of War was her goal, and she had countless smart AIs helping her, she would have found a more discreet and less murderous way to get them- at least the ones where humans were located.

Like I said saying " they both are 'means justify the ends' kind of characters is an extremely broad similarity. It's true, Halsey, like Cortana, believed her means were justified by the ends. But between the two of them, neither the ends nor means are congruent.

Now if we're tossing rampancy into the mix - a condition that actually changes ones character and behavior - then we are saying that this actions aren't a function of Cortana being who she is, but Cortana changing into something else. Then it isn't really her similarity to Halsey that explains her behavior - its because she's not herself.

The real problem in all this, is Whatever character development lead to Cortana taking these actions happens offscreen. Even if you want to suggest it makes sense for Cortana to do this because Halsey would do this and Cortana thinks and acts like Halsey - where is this relationship ever Shown? Where are the examples the juxtaposition of their choices. All we get is a few lines of nonsensical exposition instead of character development.
 
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fuchsdh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,050
I wonder if Cortana was always planned to be the villain when 343 were just making a trilogy, or if Halo 5 was some gross over correction after Spartan Ops failed and they cut down all they could from Halo 4. (Jul, Majestic, Didact)

Should have just kept her dead. If Halo Infinite is about finding the one good fragment of Cortana then the 343 campaigns have been wasted. Move on already.
Yeah I think we'll just have to disagree on principle. I don't think Halsey would have done this. Halsey is appalled by these actions - she doesn't see the rationality.

If Halsey calculated that she needed these Guardians to preserve galactic peace - if the total absence of War was her goal, and she had countless smart AIs helping her, she would have found a less murderous way to get them.
It's only a matter of scale.

Kidnapping children and covertly murdering people, bringing extralegal justice to save humanity was justifiable to younger Halsey.

Killing a few people to save the galaxy is justifiable to Cortana.

The Gravemind called it years ago—Cortana's big weakness is her desire for knowledge, and the only thing that kept her from pursuing drastic measures was her actual ability to effect them. Come Halo 5, those limits are removed, and she's coming off having been treated like crap by the organization she was built to serve (and whose goals of control likewise match hers) save Master Chief.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,607
Yeah I think we'll just have to disagree on principle. I don't think Halsey would have done this.

If Halsey calculated that she needed these Guardians to preserve galactic peace - if the total absence of War was her goal, and she had countless smart AIs helping her, she would have found a more discreet and less murderous way to get them.

Like I said saying " they both are 'means justify the ends' kind of characters is an extremely broad similarity. Halsey believed her own means were justified by the ends. But between the two of them, neither the ends are means are congruent.

Now if we're tossing rampancy into the mix - a condition that actually changes ones character and behavior - then we are saying that this actions aren't a function of Cortana being who she is, but Cortana changing into something else.
Halsey is wholly unethical with a complete disregard for human rights and is frankly a despicable human being. She commited disgusting atrocities to gain an advantage in a single war. She is clearly willing to do whatever it takes to achieve her aims, regardless of the moral or ethical implications

That is her character.

Take that character, give her unlimited power and give her a slight grudge against humanity - it's not even a small leap to reach what Cortana is doing. Honestly, it fits pretty damn well with her character.

Again, if she's willing to kidnap and enslave children to gain an advantage in a war why wouldn't she be willing to enslave everyone to stop all wars?


As for the rampancy aspect, as far as I'm aware we don't really know how it works. Also, in 4 Cortana splits herself into many different parts. Maybe the Cortana in 5 is an even more degenerate version of Halsey? Although as I've argued I don't think it's outside the bounds of her character to do what Cortana is doing.

It's only a matter of scale.
Exactly.

The acts may not be identical. However, the aims and the moral justification required to commit those acts are the same.


The problem with Cortana in Halo 5 isn't the character turn itself. It's how it was told (which IMO is basically the entire problem Halo 5's story).

She should have explicitly shown that Cortana is effectively an image of Halsey's mind and they should have highlighted just how awful a person Halsey is. It would have made the presentation of the turn far more believable. That said I think they could rectify it somewhat if they start Infinite off with something like that.
 
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Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,151
I'm still a fan of the "logic plague" theory, when it comes to evil Cortana. Also, this is something that happened, which could explain the "Infinite" subtitle:



Kinda interesting that Cortana always wanted these things and that the Gravemind is aware of it.
Logic plague, rampant Cortana, rampant fragment of Cortana- all make more sense than this is Cortana being Halsey-esque