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Halo |OT| She's Gone, Sir

op_ivy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,899
with about 5 years of development time do you guys expect a HUGE amount of content? would you be satisfied with a typical 2 year development cycle amount, or would the additional time play into your expectations?
 

Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,318
With how starved Halo 5 was at launch, Infinite better be meaty. I want Arbys, Stinkles.
Let's go with a little higher quality than that.


But yes, with its dev time and the launch of 4 and 5.... it better be feature complete. It seems stupid comparing it to a 10+ year old game but it better have at least the feature set of Halo 3/Reach
 

Forerunner

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
5,376
San Diego
BTB being late and never getting a single BTB dev map still irks me. Let's take a staple mode that has been there since the original and ignore it so we can make money off req packs for WZ.

I guess WZ was a cool idea at the time. However, it played out horribly in the long run.

Fuck WZ. That mode can go in the trash for all I care.
 

Ozzy Onya A2Z

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,223
While playing Control I can't help but pine for a Halo TPS in this style. RPG lite, progression lite, atmosphere, exploration and some gunplay etc. The H5 abilities lean into this sort of play too. Perhaps throw in a 2-3 man coop squad are we're in business.

I wonder what a TPS would be like with Halo aiming and movement still...
 

Samurai G0SU

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,169
Denver, CO
Just tweak wz a little
It has potential imo

I enjoyed it before everyone started to Max out reqs and spawn camping started to happen.

Fixing those and the boring copy paste home bases would make it more enjoyable
 

Gundam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,777
with about 5 years of development time do you guys expect a HUGE amount of content? would you be satisfied with a typical 2 year development cycle amount, or would the additional time play into your expectations?
Reach is like baseline what should be in at launch. 4 was okay in that regard too, but the slightly worse forge, armor custom, dominion not being as good as invasion, and spartan ops in place of firefight makes it hard to yearn back to that.

If Infinite launches in the state of Halo 5, it deserves low 60's metacritic imo. Like at the very least, give us Big Team.
 

SillyMikey

Member
Mar 29, 2019
332
with about 5 years of development time do you guys expect a HUGE amount of content? would you be satisfied with a typical 2 year development cycle amount, or would the additional time play into your expectations?
It better, but all this talk about how long the engine is taking to build, it wouldn’t surprise me if the game launched like H5. As much as I was impressed with what I’ve seen so far, I still don’t have 100% trust in 343 to be able to deliver the goods.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,546
Warzone is a decent enough concept but the req system and variant system made it impossible to balance. Snowballing was inherent to the design.

I don’t think they should abandon the concept- but they need to go back to the drawing board when trying to figure out how to escalate the conflict over time.
 

fuchsdh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,189
Let's go with a little higher quality than that.


But yes, with its dev time and the launch of 4 and 5.... it better be feature complete. It seems stupid comparing it to a 10+ year old game but it better have at least the feature set of Halo 3/Reach
Well you know what they say...

Warzone is a decent enough concept but the req system and variant system made it impossible to balance. Snowballing was inherent to the design.

I don’t think they should abandon the concept- but they need to go back to the drawing board when trying to figure out how to escalate the conflict over time.
I don't think balance with regards to snowballing should really factor in. That's how the escalation is supposed to work, and it's still better than the meat grinder that escalation was in, say, Invasion.

I don't think the issue was the REQs, but map design—especially since Warzone didn't really incentivize going for kills as the best path forward for winning the mode. Making it so there were only 2–3 easily campable spots for bases meant it was really easy to trap a team.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,546
Well you know what they say...



I don't think balance with regards to snowballing should really factor in. That's how the escalation is supposed to work, and it's still better than the meat grinder that escalation was in, say, Invasion.

I don't think the issue was the REQs, but map design—especially since Warzone didn't really incentivize going for kills as the best path forward for winning the mode. Making it so there were only 2–3 easily campable spots for bases meant it was really easy to trap a team.
The problem is, the way they've implemented the escalation makes the game less fun for a lot of people. So when a game is designed to make odds increasingly insurmountable as time goes on, then the game is designed around a fundamentally poor concept.

It never should have been decided that success permanently grants players access to better weapons and vehicles that make it even easier to find future success. Especially not since it's limited only by how much grinding (or spending) they'd done previously.

If you look at why Arena works its because advantages are temporary - and its really hard to hold onto them without perfect execution. Making the reward for success weapons that are more powerful and easier to find success with is inherently a recipe for disaster. I know they want to differentiate from arena, but I don’t think this is the way to do it.
 
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Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,318
I'd ditch any pay to win bullshit entirely.

If you want you can keep the zany weapons as drops but don't make me have to earn or buy card backs for a chance to grab them.

Friendly reminder, you weren't even guaranteed a BR/DMR at launch if I recall. You had to have the card.
 

Samurai G0SU

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,169
Denver, CO
You know what must be HARD for them right now ...

To make an ARENA pvp playlist as CORE knowing it's not trending and hasnt been for years.
How do they shake it up to refresh it, make it famliar to vets but yet very attractive to new players?
Also to ensure that they dont get stomped by vets like us who can do a triple double jump 360 crouch ballsack in your eyeballs thatll kill you with teabag nades?

I think 343i is in one of the hardest spots.

Remember the one life mode they used hella resources on by taking their team to paintball matches?
i dont even remember that name. plus it was all forge anyway and wasn't exciting at all. lol
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,546
You know what must be HARD for them right now ...

To make an ARENA pvp playlist as CORE knowing it's not trending and hasnt been for years.
How do they shake it up to refresh it, make it famliar to vets but yet very attractive to new players?
Also to ensure that they dont get stomped by vets like us who can do a triple double jump 360 crouch ballsack in your eyeballs thatll kill you with teabag nades?

I think 343i is in one of the hardest spots.

Remember the one life mode they used hella resources on by taking their team to paintball matches?
i dont even remember that name. plus it was all forge anyway and wasn't exciting at all. lol
I think 343 should focus less on trying to squeeze what's trending into the core gameplay, and instead should focus on maximizing the niche they dominate.

They need to fully embrace being a counterpoint to other shooters on the market - so that they can be where people go when they want a break from what has become the norm.

As far as attracting new players - I don't think the key lies neccisarily in New mechanics- but in social integration.
 

Samurai G0SU

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,169
Denver, CO
I think 343 should focus less on trying to squeeze what's trending into the core gameplay, and instead should focus on maximizing the niche they dominate.

They need to fully embrace being a counterpoint to other shooters on the market - so that they can be where people go when they want a break from what has become the norm.

As far as attracting new players - I don't think the key lies neccisarily in New mechanics- but in social integration.
very good points indeed!
i know im going to be all in Slayer day 2 (after i beat campaign)
 

Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,318
There is NOTHING that plays like Halo.

Stuff like Apex and CoD play much more similarly to each other than they do like Halo.

If I had to illustrate how similar they are.



Battlefield ---------CoD---Apex---------------------------------------------------Halo

Embrace that.
 

Prinz Eugn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
701
You know what must be HARD for them right now ...

To make an ARENA pvp playlist as CORE knowing it's not trending and hasnt been for years.
How do they shake it up to refresh it, make it famliar to vets but yet very attractive to new players?
Also to ensure that they dont get stomped by vets like us who can do a triple double jump 360 crouch ballsack in your eyeballs thatll kill you with teabag nades?

I think 343i is in one of the hardest spots.

Remember the one life mode they used hella resources on by taking their team to paintball matches?
i dont even remember that name. plus it was all forge anyway and wasn't exciting at all. lol
Ah yes, the stupefying idiocy of Breakout.

I hate round-based elimination games anyway, but having damage/health different from standard gameplay was mind-blowingly dumb. Even SWAT exploits core mechanics more logically, being "you don't have a shield," rather than "Magnum bullets do 58.43% more damage for some reason."
 

Forerunner

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
5,376
San Diego
Breakout was trash and they kept trying to push it for esports and it never went anywhere. The majority of player base aren’t playing Halo for round based elimination. What was worse is that they double down on it. The mode was pretty much dead and they dedicated a whole update on Breakout. Talk about a waste of resources.
 

Defect

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,609
I’d say most of us here prefer H5 multiplayer to Reach and 4 right?

Like it shouldn’t even be up for debate that 5 just destroys those other two.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,546
i think Halo 5 MP plays better than Reach and 4 without a doubt.

Even H3, which is closer to what I want out of a Halo game- doesn't play as well as H5
 

Defect

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,609
I just want to try out action sack but thanks to this garbage MMR matchmaking in fucking social, my friend and I can’t find games.

It’s been like this for two years in any playlist. Infinite better not have this garbage system.
 

The Henery

Member
Nov 3, 2017
108
I’d say most of us here prefer H5 multiplayer to Reach and 4 right?

Like it shouldn’t even be up for debate that 5 just destroys those other two.

Troll tweet for engagement

Reach had systemic, elemental problems hard coded into the personality of its gameplay. Go watch 100% bloom now and recoil in despair. Lumpen, nuclear grenades and concrete boots for the spartans. Once no bloom was patched in it still had the incurable condition of having #NoMaps; what was left was a grey walled dystopia, playing an approximation of The Pit or Sanctuary on what looked like a black and white TV.

Halo 4, near-unplayable trash, with again systemic problems like no maps, no descope, no red x's, no sprint penalty, loadouts, weapons from the sky etcetera etcetera. No amount of custom setting jiggery-pokery could save it. The competitive scene was on life support at that point, literally duking it out for $5k top prizes, majority of pros not playing.

MCC, actually unplayable trash for the first 9 months or so. An unprecedented failure from a premier gaming publisher, barely breathing at the functional level.

Halo 5 in comparison had the best day-one base settings ever seen in an online Halo game. Remember when Halo 3 flag return times were the same in small 4v4 settings as they were on Sandtrap? When there were power drains, and flares and radar jammers and shield doors all over the maps? When they would throw you out into the world with just an AR in your hands and stick one BR on the map? Halo 5 had, and still has, thoughtfully placed power ups and weapons on fixed timers. It has sensible flag returns times and largely well tuned stronghold hill placements and times. It solved the perennial AR/BR start civil war with Pistol/AR starts.

Mostly excellent dedicated servers. Mostly flawless framerate. Equal starts. No AAs. Spartan abilities and movement elegantly integrated (Spartan Charge the only real point of long term angst in the community). Playlist setting philosophy honed and iterated on by former MLG pros. Overall second best multiplayer in the series. Halo 4 to Halo 5 is probably the biggest leap in improvement from a major games developer.
 

Forerunner

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
5,376
San Diego
Halo 3 is unbeatable. Sure, if you like the worst sandbox in the series with shitty FoV and movement.

Halo 2 was revolutionary. This I can get behind. H2 led the way for console online play.

Halo CE was legendary. This is the truth, plain and simple.

Halo 4 was bold. If by bold you mean trying to chase CoD and failing miserably then sure.

Halo 5. H5 is the most forgettable in my opinion. It's better than H4 in some ways and worse in others. It's just eh for me. Not bad, but not great either.

Halo Reach is iconic. I agree with this. It doesn't matter how you feel about it, there are a ton of mixed opinions from the best to the worst in the series. However, everyone REMEMBERS REACH.
 

op_ivy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,899
came up with an interesting halo-gears analogy this morning playing gears 5 that i think helps explain why i've never been too into that series but am loving gears 5. posted in the gears 5 OT but thought i'd also share here:

had sort of an epiphany this morning with gears (see my post above). the gameplay is finally clicking and i think i've figured out at least a portion of what the coalition has nailed that has kind of made the series turn a corner for me - and it relates to my true gaming love: halo

one of the reasons i love halo is its combat design and gameplay loop. i love moving through the environment and using it to my advantage against enemies. the guns, grenades, and melee system all play into a fantastic wealth of options to tackle engagements. my favorite enemies to fight in halo are the ones that largely match the options, skills, and even brains of the player - the elites. the worst enemies in the halo series are the ones that don't exhibit much AI other than press forward and shoot - crawlers and flood (though i still value their inclusion for gameplay variety).

gears is the exact opposite for me! the smarter enemies in gears, that are a match to the player in abilities and AI are a slog to fight against - the grubs and related enemies. the design of the game encourages fighting these enemies in the most straight forward, easy way. Pop out of cover, shoot, resume cover when you've taken too much damage. Sure you can flank, sure you can press the attack to them, but frankly why should you when the game actively promotes the pop and shoot loop by having your shields get whittled away quickly when on the move from all sorts of angles.

its the "dumb" enemies of gears that really make the gameplay sing! the wretches (and whatever the new forms are called) and the deebees (and whatever the corrupted forms are called) constantly chase the player down forcing movement. these closer quarter battles are much more exciting and a large part of why i think i liked 4 more than most, the much maligned deebees were my favorite part! the new(er) boss type baddies introduced in 4, like pouncers and snatchers, also keep you on the move much more than was seen in the past.

but even in the "typical gears battleground" the series is known for, a large combat area strewn with cover and littered with various grub, gears 5 allows for more options for these engagements still to play out more interestingly then they have in the past. many of these battles now allow me to engage the enemy when i see fit, sneaking up on them, approaching from better angles, using the environment against them, and even giving me huge support in the form of combat dropped deebees to fight alongside of or other power to call in. now i can use jack's skills, like the stun or shield to distract and push forward on enemies to much more easily and effectively play up close where gears can shine.

gears 5 has been expertly designed to keep gears core gameplay while also moving the series to better allow the player to play to its design strengths.
TLDR, the best part of gears combat is exactly the opposite of the best part of halos, and gears 5 plays more to its strengths than it has in the past
 
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Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,546
came up with an interesting halo-gears analogy this morning playing gears 5 that i think helps explain why i've never been too into that series but am loving gears 5. posted in the gears 5 OT but thought i'd also share here:



TLDR, the best part of gears combat is exactly the opposite of the best part of halos, and gears 5 plays more to its strengths than it has in the past
I think this is pretty fair. (Though I think flood is good, crawlers bad)

For me its simple- dodging things while shooting things is fun. The more engaged i an with the two sticks simultaneously, the more joy in getting out of the shooter. This I why I love gnasher battles and all of the weak, agile and persistent enemies Gears has to offer.

The worst parts of Halo and Gears to me is when game design dictated that I sit still and widdle down an opponents health (this is why I hate what has become of Hunters and why I generally hate prometheans. Halo's elites flipped that into a strength - if you aren't playing well - they'll take a ton of damage, but when your on your game, you'll stay on the move, and take them out almost a quickly as everyone else - it feels rewarding.

I've always liked gears- but the grub heavy battles often became a slog because they took so much damage that coming to a standstill and playing duck hunt became so necessary. With gears 5, Jack opens up the combat so much that you always feel empowered to keep in moving.
 
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Prinz Eugn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
701
The only way I can really see Halo 4 over Halo 5 is if you consider single-player only. I remember Halo 4 having interesting environments and vehicle levels, and at least the Prometheans were new then. Halo 5 is mostly a blur of Wardens with Wardens behind more Wardens, guarded by a pair of Wardens. I guess Sanghelios was pretty and that time you walked around a mining camp looking for clues was... something.
 

Samurai G0SU

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,169
Denver, CO
I had the least fun in reach ...

Halo CE had me replaying the campaign dozens of times

Halo 2 mp had me hooked!!
Halo 3 didn't push my hype higher, but I had more fun with friends in this game. Btb was great
Reach felt exciting until armor lock and jetpacks became the norm. Felt really annoying and the aiming / movement was clunky to me. A step back in enjoyment for me and my friends.
Halo 4 had cool graphics but MP was boring after a while
Halo 5 brought back halo 2 mp engagement excitement for me. But it took a while as we needed updates to fix aiming and etc.

So I'm really excited to see what they do with infinite.
 

fuchsdh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,189
I'm convinced all 343 really has to do to make the "I C O N I C" Halo game people want is just ship a complete game content-wise. Reach was middling gameplay for most of its entire life but it didn't matter because we had Forge and file shares and the community. Halo 4 and Halo 5 I like the gameplay and campaigns way more but shipping without half the features that took another year to add hurt both critically (especially 5 without Forge and then without robust sharing features.)
 

nillapuddin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,189
I'm convinced all 343 really has to do to make the "I C O N I C" Halo game people want is just ship a complete game content-wise. Reach was middling gameplay for most of its entire life but it didn't matter because we had Forge and file shares and the community. Halo 4 and Halo 5 I like the gameplay and campaigns way more but shipping without half the features that took another year to add hurt both critically (especially 5 without Forge and then without robust sharing features.)
I think I agree with you, the biggest being the variety of game modes. It is unfathomable that Halo 5 launched with the lack of gametypes and maps that it did.

Looking at the scope of the game now, its pretty nice, theres a ton of content, but it still isnt at par for the franchise

this is incredible
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,661

I saw the words "dodging" and "Prometheans" in the same post so I thought this was relevant.
 

Stopdoor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,040
People constantly going "Halo 5 has the BEST multiplayer gameplay, everyone else is blinded" makes me roll my eyes so hard because they must be the devs who decided BTB wasn't integral "gameplay"
 

Gundam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,777
Why does Halo esports go on life support after every release now? Like Halo 2A -> Halo 5 feels like the exception, and that's mainly because of the 1 year between releases.
 
Dec 21, 2017
1,274
Why does Halo esports go on life support after every release now? Like Halo 2A -> Halo 5 feels like the exception, and that's mainly because of the 1 year between releases.
Why are all the tournaments playing Halo 3 when Halo 2A exists?

H2A needs more maps now that I think about it. It's a shame we only got one DLC map and it was a BTB map.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,546
Why does Halo esports go on life support after every release now? Like Halo 2A -> Halo 5 feels like the exception, and that's mainly because of the 1 year between releases.
The Halo 5 esports decline can be traced directly to giving ESL exclusive rights and them pushing hamstringing progress for the first few seasons.

It could have been a great, long lasting scene if from the beginning, it was built to support grass roots growth