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Hardcore History | Recent release: Nightmares of Indianapolis [HH Addendum]

Oct 25, 2017
1,182
Was hoping for something I didn't know about (I just read The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire last year) but this will be great.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,041
It's quite a coincidence that The Dollop just had a whole episode on Hiroo Onoda, which is an extra weird coincidence because they very rarely step outside of American (and Australian) history.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,670
This is a real interesting subject, especially pre-American involvement.

If people are getting into the series Death Throes is probably the best but I think Blueprint is his magnum opus.

Also as some input on a previous discuss, I think Dan’s politics are very much geared towards constitutional freedoms and anti-corruption. In that vein, most of his way of thinking makes sense, especially the belief that neither party is really different.
 
Oct 25, 2017
753
I love how I fully expected from the description for the show to be about the Second Sino-Japanese War and I'm totally not surprised that one hour into the show we are deep into the Edo period.

So far this is a significant improvement over the past two episodes, it's a focused narrative unlike Painfotainment and a much more interesting and fresh story compared to Celtic Holocaust. So many Carlinismis though as expected, cultural carrots and sticks and whatnot.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,182
I love how I fully expected from the description for the show to be about the Second Sino-Japanese War and I'm totally not surprised that one hour into the show we are deep into the Edo period.

So far this is a significant improvement over the past two episodes, it's a focused narrative unlike Painfotainment and a much more interesting and fresh story compared to Celtic Holocaust. So many Carlinismis though as expected, cultural carrots and sticks and whatnot.
Take a drink every time he says intellectual contagion.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,278
I love how I fully expected from the description for the show to be about the Second Sino-Japanese War and I'm totally not surprised that one hour into the show we are deep into the Edo period.

So far this is a significant improvement over the past two episodes, it's a focused narrative unlike Painfotainment and a much more interesting and fresh story compared to Celtic Holocaust. So many Carlinismis though as expected, cultural carrots and sticks and whatnot.
Weird, so it's not bout WW2?
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,250
Weird, so it's not bout WW2?
It is, but Carlin likes context.

Which means a crash course of mediaval japan and an exented view of it's rise as an imperialist power.

Edit: also it saddens me that so many disliked the cletic holocaust episode. I thought it was great and an point of view you don't hear too often.

I'm also from a former cletic region though, so i may be biased.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,158
I feel like the quality and insight really has fallen of. That last common sense was more or less pointless rambling. Haven't listened to the new episode of HH yet, is it any good?
 
Oct 27, 2017
950
Canada
I feel like the quality and insight really has fallen of. That last common sense was more or less pointless rambling. Haven't listened to the new episode of HH yet, is it any good?
I've had the same thought with the last few - I feel like he kind of jumped the shark with the last Death Throes of the Republic episode and has gotten more and more indulgent since then. I haven't gotten through a HH series since Wrath of the Khans and feel like Carlin could do with an editing pass to cut down on the repetition and the frequent comparisons to the modern day. He's such storyteller but he can really get bogged down at times.

But I'm 3/4 of the way through this episode and enjoying it a lot. Japan in China is a big part of the Second World War that goes under-noticed and it seems like he's going to be spending a fair bit of time on that which is nice. Hopefully his sources are good.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,596
^^That's crazy talk.

Blueprint for Armageddon is his best work.

I think the problem is we get like 2 episodes a year. So if he releases 2 "sub par" (by his standards) episodes, it feels like its been years since a good series. :P
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,278
It is, but Carlin likes context.

Which means a crash course of mediaval japan and an exented view of it's rise as an imperialist power.

Edit: also it saddens me that so many disliked the cletic holocaust episode. I thought it was great and an point of view you don't hear too often.

I'm also from a former cletic region though, so i may be biased.
depends on your definition of WW2 I guess

Japan was burning down East Asia for quite a while before the Nazi Reich invaded Poland
Hrm, so does he get into the Naval battle/Yamamoto stuff at all? Or next episode?
 
Nov 23, 2017
469
one of these days i'll get into this stuff

I keep wanting to like it but my mind just wanders too much with audio for me to focus on something like this for more than maybe a half hour or so
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,182
Got about an hour left and I'm really loving this. Back to classic Hardcore History. Can't wait for the rest of the series.

Surprised there's so few comments in here.
 

Praxis

Banned
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,278
Just about finished part one and loving it, this is the one I have been waiting for. Japan in WW2 were brutal as hell.
 

Vas

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,579
One note:

For years, I've always heard people say, when talking about Japanese ritualistic suicide, that 'seppuku' was this honorable term for the act and 'harakiri' was some offensive term that explicitly describes 'cutting of the stomach' in a dismissive way. It was echoed by Dan here. I always believed this to be true because I had no reason to doubt it.

However, I do not understand why this is thought to be the case anymore, considering the following:

Seppuku is "切腹"
Harakiri is "腹切”

Notice something? They are actually the exact same characters (which represent meaning) in reverse order. 腹 means 'stomach' and 切 means 'cutting.' So, actually both, in the plainest terms, mean 'stomach cutting.' There is no distinction between them I can see.

So, is this a misconception in the West or would there be some reason why this is thought to be true? In fact, I've always found that kun-yomi is seen as far more dignified and poetic than on-yomi in Japanese culture, which runs counter to the notion that Seppuku would be favorable to Harakiri. It is very possible I'm wrong about this one, though, because I've heard the same thing about Harakiri/Seppuku for at least 15 years from various sources, such as this podcast episode.

I'm just saying, Dan should apologize and cancel FFXIII for the XBOX360 or he can kiss his podcast goodbye.
 
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Nov 27, 2017
428
Fantastic episode! Can't wait for the next one, but I assume it will be a tough listen. For those wondering, episode 1 covers until shortly before Nanking. I appreciated the crash course in Japanese history. I absorbed a bit from anime over the years so it was nice to have some extra context. I thought Dan's whole steroids / addiction metaphor fell flat though.

Can someone remind me, how often are episodes in a series?
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,241
One note:

For years, I've always heard people say, when talking about Japanese ritualistic suicide, that 'seppuku' was this honorable term for the act and 'harakiri' was some offensive term that explicitly describes 'cutting of the stomach' in a dismissive way. It was echoed by Dan here. I always believed this to be true because I had no reason to doubt it.

However, I do not understand why this is thought to be the case anymore, considering the following:

Seppuku is "切腹"
Harakiri is "腹切”

Notice something? They are actually the exact same characters (which represent meaning) in reverse order. 腹 means 'stomach' and 切 means 'cutting.' So, actually both, in the plainest terms, mean 'stomach cutting.' There is no distinction between them I can see.

So, is this a misconception in the West or would there be some reason why this is thought to be true? In fact, I've always found that kun-yomi is seen as far more dignified and poetic than on-yomi in Japanese culture, which runs counter to the notion that Seppuku would be favorable to Harakiri. It is very possible I'm wrong about this one, though, because I've heard the same thing about Harakiri/Seppuku for at least 15 years from various sources, such as this podcast episode.

I'm just saying, Dan should apologize and cancel FFXIII for the XBOX360 or he can kiss his podcast goodbye.
Word order matters in a lot of languages. There’s a difference between a “green great dragon” and a “great green dragon”, after all. Tokyo and Kyoto also use the same characters (Northern / Capital) but are distinct enough that nobody ever thought to rename Kyoto when Edo changed its name.

I don’t know enough about Japanese to say for sure, but maybe sonething similar is happening here, where the meaning is subtly altered by the word order.

Can someone remind me, how often are episodes in a series?
Oh my sweet summer child...

Between 3 and 6 months is typical these past few years
 

Vas

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,579
Word order matters in a lot of languages. There’s a difference between a “green great dragon” and a “great green dragon”, after all. Tokyo and Kyoto also use the same characters (Northern / Capital) but are distinct enough that nobody ever thought to rename Kyoto when Edo changed its name.

I don’t know enough about Japanese to say for sure, but maybe sonething similar is happening here, where the meaning is subtly altered by the word order.

Between 3 and 6 months is typical these past few years
Well, you have a point, but Kyoto and Tokyo aren't quite an example of character order changing the meaning of a word or concept, but you are not that far off in a different way..

Tokyo is 東京 pronounced like To u kyo u.. The 'to' sound in Tokyo is to-u, and is often described as a 'long' o sound. It is represented the character 東 which means East.
Kyoto is 京都 pronounced like Kyo u to. The 'to' sound is short, and is represented by a different character for 'capital.'

They are not only different sounds, but totally different characters. However, where the confusion might arise is that Tokyo's official name is actually 東京都, or Tokyo-to. So, it *is* actually literally the same name as Kyoto, but with the character for 'East' in front of it.

So, as for character order, there is some precedent for it having changed the meaning of words.. 会社 vs. 社会 is a common example. (Kaisha vs. Shakai) where the former means an office/business and the latter means 'society' as a whole. However, in the case of Seppuku and Harakiri, the meaning isn't changed in the slightest. They both are terms for the same thing represented by the same characters.

The only real difference stylistic IMO, where one is based on on-yomi (Kanji Compound) and the other is kun-yomi, which is how the words would be read on their own instead of part of a compound. So, I must admit I have never known the character order to mean the same thing, but change the level of politeness or dignity of a word. And because most artistic, traditional, or dignified Japanese concepts tend to be expressed with the kun-yomi style, I would find it odd that if there WAS a difference, harakiri would be seen as less dignified than seppuku.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,241
Well, you have a point, but Kyoto and Tokyo aren't quite an example of character order changing the meaning of a word or concept, but you are not that far off in a different way..

Tokyo is 東京 pronounced like To u kyo u.. The 'to' sound in Tokyo is to-u, and is often described as a 'long' o sound. It is represented the character 東 which means East.
Kyoto is 京都 pronounced like Kyo u to. The 'to' sound is short, and is represented by a different character for 'capital.'

They are not only different sounds, but totally different characters. However, where the confusion might arise is that Tokyo's official name is actually 東京都, or Tokyo-to. So, it *is* actually literally the same name as Kyoto, but with the character for 'East' in front of it.

So, as for character order, there is some precedent for it having changed the meaning of words.. 会社 vs. 社会 is a common example. (Kaisha vs. Shakai) where the former means an office/business and the latter means 'society' as a whole. However, in the case of Seppuku and Harakiri, the meaning isn't changed in the slightest. They both are terms for the same thing represented by the same characters.

The only real difference stylistic IMO, where one is based on on-yomi (Kanji Compound) and the other is kun-yomi, which is how the words would be read on their own instead of part of a compound. So, I must admit I have never known the character order to mean the same thing, but change the level of politeness or dignity of a word. And because most artistic, traditional, or dignified Japanese concepts tend to be expressed with the kun-yomi style, I would find it odd that if there WAS a difference, harakiri would be seen as less dignified than seppuku.
Thanks for elaborating. Truth to tell, I don’t have a clue.
 
Oct 25, 2017
921
Can’t wait for the next one. Despite the length, these episodes still feel like a tease for the next one!

I’ve been looking into other historical podcasts but so far have come up with a lot of guys that I’m sure know a lot, but seem like they are simply reading from a script. Whereas Dan always seems like he’s just having a natural conversation about history with you. He’s got quite a gift.

Anyone have any other good recommendations?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,713
Can’t wait for the next one. Despite the length, these episodes still feel like a tease for the next one!

I’ve been looking into other historical podcasts but so far have come up with a lot of guys that I’m sure know a lot, but seem like they are simply reading from a script. Whereas Dan always seems like he’s just having a natural conversation about history with you. He’s got quite a gift.

Anyone have any other good recommendations?
Have you tried History on Fire?
 
Oct 28, 2017
72
Can’t wait for the next one. Despite the length, these episodes still feel like a tease for the next one!

I’ve been looking into other historical podcasts but so far have come up with a lot of guys that I’m sure know a lot, but seem like they are simply reading from a script. Whereas Dan always seems like he’s just having a natural conversation about history with you. He’s got quite a gift.

Anyone have any other good recommendations?
You should give Mike Duncan's history of Rome and revolutions podcast a listen.
 
OP
OP
More_Badass
Oct 25, 2017
14,840
Can’t wait for the next one. Despite the length, these episodes still feel like a tease for the next one!

I’ve been looking into other historical podcasts but so far have come up with a lot of guys that I’m sure know a lot, but seem like they are simply reading from a script. Whereas Dan always seems like he’s just having a natural conversation about history with you. He’s got quite a gift.

Anyone have any other good recommendations?
Check out The Memory Palace. Nate DiMeo is an excellent narrator, and the podcast is my favorite as the other side of the history podcast coin: if HH is the full three-course meal of history, Memory Palace is an espresso shot of history, with episodes ranging from 5 to 15 minutes. I could listen to DiMeo and Carlin talk for hours on topics
 
Oct 25, 2017
753
History on Fire is definitely in many ways a lot like Hardcore History and the variety among topics is much better than HH. It also updates on a much more frequent basis, consistently delivering 1.5-2 hours long podcasts on a monthly basis. On the flipside, Dan Carlin is just an amazing storyteller that's hard to top, but it's definitely worth a listen.

History of Rome is great but it's much more dry and it's very much a long and more in-depth look at Rome's history (as the title implies).
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,562
Belgium
History on Fire is definitely in many ways a lot like Hardcore History and the variety among topics is much better than HH. It also updates on a much more frequent basis, consistently delivering 1.5-2 hours long podcasts on a monthly basis. On the flipside, Dan Carlin is just an amazing storyteller that's hard to top, but it's definitely worth a listen.

History of Rome is great but it's much more dry and it's very much a long and more in-depth look at Rome's history (as the title implies).
Seconding History of Rome. Yeah, it's definitely a little on the dry side, but if you love the subject matter, it's definitely the best podcast on the topic IMO, with HH's episodes being a better story.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,328

Description: Imagine actual people living for real through the plot of several disaster and survival movies combined. That's what the crew of the USS Indianapolis experienced after it was torpedoed at the very end of the Second World War. Show Notes: 1. "In Harm's Way: The Sinking of the U.S.S. Indianapolis and the Extraordinary Story of Its Survivors" by Doug Stanton 2. "The Unthinkable: Who Survives When Disaster Strikes - and Why" by Amanda Ripley This episode is brought to you by Audible
 

Jag

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,818
Kind of want Supernova Part 2, but I'll take anything Dan does.

First time I heard of the Indianapolis was watching Jaws as a kid.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,328
Supernova 2 is probably not coming until December at the earliest lol

I'll take what he can give us

EDIT: Well that was horrifying
 
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Oct 25, 2017
4,562
Belgium
I had never actually heard the story of the USS Indianapolis being told. Absolutely horrifying stuff. I can't imagine the terror and exhaustion these poor men must have felt.
 
OP
OP
More_Badass
Oct 25, 2017
14,840
I had never actually heard the story of the USS Indianapolis being told. Absolutely horrifying stuff. I can't imagine the terror and exhaustion these poor men must have felt.
Have you seen Jaws? I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the first time a lot of people heard about the Indianapolis nowadays, outside of like history class
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,313
I feel like I've heard the story of the Indianapolis so many times I won't get anything out of this, but it's HH so I have to listen.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,562
Belgium
Have you seen Jaws? I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the first time a lot of people heard about the Indianapolis nowadays, outside of like history class
I must have, but definitely a long-ass time ago to the point where I didn't even remember that monologue.

I had definitely heard the name before, but being Belgian, that sort of stuff isn't really taught in any of our classes.