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Have recent events affected your decision to buy future Atlus titles?
- Thread starter Gold Arsene
- Start date
First of all, I will not boycott Atlus or Sega as a whole for this, no. That much I can be confident in. The rest is more dicey but let me write what I was going to put in the other thread about this whole situation.
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Catherine is my favorite game. Those of you who have played it can see that in my username. It tackles the subject of relationships and feeling stuck in life in your early 30's in a way that most games still don't, let alone full priced console games in 2011. Along the way it also tells a gripping mystery of what is happening to Vincent and other men in this world. The fact that if you don't help people work through their problems in the bar they die in their dreams is crazy, especially since it is so easy to miss some of them. All of this is wrapped in a killer presentation with gorgeous animated cutscenes, and that beautiful HD style that they were practicing with for Persona 5. The gameplay is fairly unique and challenging, and Shoji Meguro continues to be one of the best composers in the business. In other words, it is what Persona Team and Hashino are the best at: building a cohesive game where every aspect supports the game's vision and themes.
I suppose the exception to this has always been how they handle LGBTQ characters.
When I started to read about the Erica controversy a few years later, I was upset because I want everyone to be able to experience and love this unique game. I actually disagreed with much of the criticism of her character in the original version, but one thing that was unacceptable is how they use her deadname in the credits. When I heard about Full Body, I had hoped that this would be an opportunity to do better in this area. Now, from what I understand the actual main ending that is discussed in the other thread is possibly being misinterpreted, at least the part
, but while I haven't read too much about it because I don't want to spoil everything it sounds like the other new content is questionable and the fact that they still fucked up the credits is unbelievable to me.
Alltogether, the fact that so many are upset about how they have handled trans issues in this game proves that once again they have done a bad job in this department, and that pisses me off, because again I want everyone to be able to enjoy Catherine and Persona Team games. For me it is going to be hard to boycott this game because as I mentioned the original is my favorite game (and in addition to the the reasons above why that is so, it helped me through some hard times). But I won't be buying the deluxe anymore and I don't blame anyone for skipping this title now, as sad as it makes me to say that.
I really want a statement from Atlus too.
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Catherine is my favorite game. Those of you who have played it can see that in my username. It tackles the subject of relationships and feeling stuck in life in your early 30's in a way that most games still don't, let alone full priced console games in 2011. Along the way it also tells a gripping mystery of what is happening to Vincent and other men in this world. The fact that if you don't help people work through their problems in the bar they die in their dreams is crazy, especially since it is so easy to miss some of them. All of this is wrapped in a killer presentation with gorgeous animated cutscenes, and that beautiful HD style that they were practicing with for Persona 5. The gameplay is fairly unique and challenging, and Shoji Meguro continues to be one of the best composers in the business. In other words, it is what Persona Team and Hashino are the best at: building a cohesive game where every aspect supports the game's vision and themes.
I suppose the exception to this has always been how they handle LGBTQ characters.
When I started to read about the Erica controversy a few years later, I was upset because I want everyone to be able to experience and love this unique game. I actually disagreed with much of the criticism of her character in the original version, but one thing that was unacceptable is how they use her deadname in the credits. When I heard about Full Body, I had hoped that this would be an opportunity to do better in this area. Now, from what I understand the actual main ending that is discussed in the other thread is possibly being misinterpreted, at least the part
that Catherine claims she is making everyone's life better, which by the way does not sound like something Catherine would do at all.
Alltogether, the fact that so many are upset about how they have handled trans issues in this game proves that once again they have done a bad job in this department, and that pisses me off, because again I want everyone to be able to enjoy Catherine and Persona Team games. For me it is going to be hard to boycott this game because as I mentioned the original is my favorite game (and in addition to the the reasons above why that is so, it helped me through some hard times). But I won't be buying the deluxe anymore and I don't blame anyone for skipping this title now, as sad as it makes me to say that.
I really want a statement from Atlus too.
This is sadly true and why I tend to stay out of threads like that. I'm not entirely confident in my ability to articulate my thoughts in a way that won't get misinterpreted, especially with some posters I've seen over the years that look for any little thing to jump on you for.
On topic, I'm skipping Catherine due to it not being my type of game.
I actually hope more people buy Atlus developed games. Most of their products are unique, meaning there's rarely anything that's similar on the market. I don't see any RPG that is an alternative to Persona nor SMT. Even Etrian Odyssey. Their uniqueness is one reason why Atlus has a cult following. It's not like Call of Duty where you can just switch to Battlefield.
Let's just hope they improve their treatment of LGBTQ, because we need more devs like Atlus who make unique amazing games.
Let's just hope they improve their treatment of LGBTQ, because we need more devs like Atlus who make unique amazing games.
Why? People don't care really or not enough to change their decision
There is something to this for sure. Doesn't mean you have to buy Catherine specifically, but ideally we could support them and be vocal enough to demand change.
You can't switch from Call of Duty and Battlefield the two different games. and why would they change anything if people continue to support them or not call them out for it?
I have watched too much anime that barely anything shocks me anymore, but if I understood correctly (avoiding spoilers) the latest issue is about Rin, a character that I'm not too much interested in. So still going with my initial plan to buy Full Body and possibly upcoming Atlus titles as well.
I didn't say they should'nt be called out for it. They should be. That doesn't mean people shouldnstop supporting them.
I won't be getting Catherine remake but I still will be getting other new Atlus games. Despite some great annoyances with Persona series, still love those games.
No I will continue to purchase future Atlus titles, however I will remain vocal and critical of areas where they are problematic, and believe this approach is more useful and likely to produce positive results than derailing the conversation by talking about bans and boycotts
if you continue to support them why would they change they have no incentive to change . Why would they ?
I just wanted to say that I fully agree with this 100%, and I'm glad that someone could put my feelings into words.
As for the topic at hand, Catherine never interested me in the first place. I'm still bitter about Persona Q2's dub, but I like the soundtrack and being able to use my dream team is making me reconsider.
If enough people call them out for it, then they'll notice. I do believe there is an Atlus USA employee in Era. Of course Atlus Japan is much more stubborn in these regards.
Nevertheless for my personal opinion, these issues are not enough to stop me from buying and supporting their games.
The thing of 'Call of Duty' funding the weapon industry wasn't a government thing. It was a conscious decision from Activision of including real weapons and paying the royalties to the manufacturers, as is expressed in the Eurogamer article that I linked.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-02-01-shooters-how-video-games-fund-arms-manufacturers
I was talking about THIS concrete moral decision. Because logically, there is nothing that I can do against how my government invest the money.
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This HAS to be satire.
God forbid you question the things you buy right? Like whoa, imagine a world where you had to think about the things you buy, damn man that would be pretty bad huh?
Anywho, the true solution is to not buy it and voice your criticism of it. That's it. That's the most effective way to shut these kinda things down.
The lazy solution is to buy it and voice your criticism of it. And I'm not trying to sound condescending with that. I do think it CAN work and games can still change even when they sell but it would take longer and it's nowhere near as absolute as not buying it. It's the lazy solution because ultimately we all have a very hard time putting a sense of principle when it comes to indulging in modern world luxuries. And I say that as someone who is probably gonna go the lazy way out. I don't think it's worth try to sugar coat it in some sort of fancy "argument" and better to just own up to it. For what it's worth I don't think it makes you a terrible human being.
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The only reason they would change anything is if there was a risk of a monetary loss. Continuing to support their games is the only message they care about.
I don't blame anyone for either choice. The content of Full Body has certainly given me pause, and I already played the original so missing out on it won't be too big deal if I decide not to get it at any point. But future Atlus titles will be evaluated on a future basis. I enjoy the gameplay but too much offensive content might push me over the edge. We'll see I guess.
It's not about Rin. Somehow they managed to be worse than what some here were expecting.
Catherine never interested me. I won't be buying it regardless, but I don't boycott gaming companies. I buy what I'm interested in.
I personally prefer more active forms of advocacy, such as voting, volunteering and giving money. I have no issue with those that choose to boycott, but it's not my thing for the preferences I mentioned above.
I've heard if the P5 stuff but avoided details due to spoilers.
I personally prefer more active forms of advocacy, such as voting, volunteering and giving money. I have no issue with those that choose to boycott, but it's not my thing for the preferences I mentioned above.
I've heard if the P5 stuff but avoided details due to spoilers.
Catherine Full Body is a hard pass from me. As for other stuff, I guess I'll take it as it comes.
What's wrong with questioning the things you buy?
What's wrong with questioning the things you buy?
I'm an Atlus-fan and I love Catherine, so it's kinda hard for me, but I pass on this game. Won't necesarily pass on future Atlus products though.
But isn't it a good thing to question what you buy? Blind consumerism isn't the best way forward imo.
But isn't it a good thing to question what you buy? Blind consumerism isn't the best way forward imo.
I always think about this whenever I see calls for boycotts and outrage over something. How many stick to their principles, how many cave in and consume their favourite entertainment. "Fuck Konami", "Fuck Epic", "Fuck Amazon", "Fuck Google", "Fuck Polanski", "Fuck Kanye", etc.
Atlus does a lot of dumb shit that makes me not want to buy their games, the regionlocking and EU fucking of P4A, the screenshot blocking of P5, the releasing of Catherine regular on PC right before full body on consoles. And then there's the yousuke/kanji shit in P4.
They're a bunch of fucks.
They're a bunch of fucks.
I'm pretty much done with anything that Hashino's helming. I gave his work the benefit of the doubt far too often, and I'm just done with his antics at this point.
That said, I'm genuinely curious to see how Persona 6 is handled, now that he's gone from the franchise.
That said, I'm genuinely curious to see how Persona 6 is handled, now that he's gone from the franchise.
Yeah, i mean. It's part of the narrative in this games. it can't get more explicit at all.
This is not a DQ situation with the guy that makes the OST, here they actually make the point INSIDE THE GAME to trash the lgbtq community.
Still, not surprised. i mean, this is a gaming community. More tame than the one that started gamergate but still, gaming community. We even had a couple of "get politics out of muuhhh gamezzz" some pages before.
People can interpret data however they want, but I don't think it's that complicated myself.
1) For people who aren't personally impacted by the phobic rhetoric of games like this it's easy to look past them as a mere component to a larger whole. Since the game does not reinforce any prejudice against them or remind them of trauma they have experienced or reinforce standards of discrimination against them they can swallow the scene for what it is and move on. This is why even on a progressive-leaning forum like ours there are people who will still play Atlus games regardless of this content. They can be an active opponent of prejudice and post often in defense of marginalized people but they might still choose to play a video game with these sort of depictions. This can happen whether they care about the problematic content or whether they don't care at all. Your capacity to overlook this content is individual and you will have a much easier time doing it if it's not about you.
2) Even for people who this rhetoric does directly impact, this is what media has been like for them for their entire lives. Women who have wanted to play video games have had to put up with intense misogyny both in and out of the games they're playing. Black players have grappled with poor or insulting representation that constantly portrays worlds and universes where they literally don't exist. Queer players have had to process being the butt of jokes likely since before they even knew they were gay. But if they wanted to play video games, this is what they had to put up with, and if they were ever going to be part of gaming they had to be consumers of material that hated them. This means a lot of marginalized players have a thick skin, especially older ones. It's awful and unjust that they have had to do this, but marginalized people deal with it because marginalized people have to be strong. I wish they didn't have to be just to play a video game.
You will be extremely hard pressed to find a gay fan of Persona 5 who didn't feel betrayed by its themes of respect and personal truth and individuality while also reinforcing harmful gay stereotypes of icky perversion. But this is what they deal with. This is the world for them. It is a world where they have to either tolerate hatred or miss out on things they want to otherwise enjoy. They aren't hurt by this kind of content in Persona or Catherine because they hate these games. They are hurt because they are fans and consumers too. They don't want to have to boycott the games or skip the series because these are the games they want to play. They just want to play them without being made in to creeps and monsters.
This is how even people who have posted over and over and over about how much the content disappoints them, or how much it hurts them, or how upsetting the content is to see, might still purchase and try to play the games. This is why you see the poll results you see.
In the business world nothing talks louder than money. If your product fails you will not make the same product again the same way. This is the shortest distance between two points and why the most vocal proponents of a boycott take such a strong position. There are thousands of people who will skip these games because of this content, and they'll post about it on social media, and they'll talk about it on their YouTube channels and streams, and this will give Atlus a lot of negative publicity to contend with. This will be effective to some degree and maybe will result in some change. I am grateful for these people and I am one of them.
But this game will still sell to people who wish this content wasn't there. It will sell to marginalized people who find it hurtful. It will sell to allies who find it offensive. Change doesn't just come from people who abstain. It comes from people inside the system too. It's one thing when people who didn't buy your game are upset. It's another when people who did buy your game are upset too. You can't ignore them.
I am a pansexual man who stayed closeted most of his life because of homophobia. Stuff like this in media is a bigger part of what kept me closeted than actual, direct homophobia from other people. There are connections I lost and relationships I never had because of exactly this kind of material. I don't personally care whether somebody buys Atlus games or not. People's response to the content is more important to me than whether or not they bought the content. I guess I do hope that everyone has a breaking point where even if it doesn't affect them personally it will be too much to stomach, but I can't dictate where that threshold is. My hope is that whether someone is a fan of Atlus or not, or whether they buy the game or not, or whether they are queer or not, they will find content like this objectionable and support change.
But that's why there's nothing surprising about the poll results, even here.
What people post and what people do in real life are two entirely different things.
I'm not. The majority of users here, and I would assume Atlus gamers, are straight and white. This shit doesn't affect them, gamers will just brush stuff aside.
At the very least, I'd like for the European/American side of Sega/Atlus to adress this issue in one way or another. It will be very difficult for me to justify the purchase of Full Body if they just carry on like it's business as usual. The pattern of these games using the LGBT+ community as a punching bag can't be attributed to coincidence or ignorance at this point.
Oh don't worry, I understood your point completely, and again I appreciate that specific moral decision. My point merely concerned the greater scheme of things.
This is all a bit fresh so my feelings may change, but right now I don't feel comfortable buying any titles from Atlus. Initially with the Persona games and the issues of representation I was just happy that they seemed to be trying and thought it would get better as they grew and listened to feedback. I didn't think it was done out of malice or bigotry, but it does seem to be getting worse and after well over a decade of concerns and issues in the Persona games, and not just the more hateful and problematic queer representation, but issues with the MC's and women, it's all just a bit much for me and I just don't feel comfortable supporting the company at the moment. I may change that to just not supporting Persona as a series.
I can't help but find a lot of the comparisons in this thread between Hashino and Sugiyama overly simple.
Like, Sugiyama's a real piece of shit, but he's also just the music guy. He doesn't really have an avenue to directly inject his views into the DQ games, and from what I've heard (I don't play DQ) those views don't show up. So separating art from artist is not that hard to do in that scenario.
With Hashino, though, he does have that avenue. And not only is there evidence that his views are bleeding into the text, but there's potential evidence that his views are bleeding more into each new text. So separating the two becomes harder, because now it's something the consumer has to directly. confront.
The only Atlus thing I've bought is the Joker DLC for Smash Ultimate, so this doesn't affect me too much. That said, I think it'd be nice if Hashino forming Studio Zero means he isn't involved with Persona 6. Just to confirm that it really is him, and not Atlus as a whole.
Like, Sugiyama's a real piece of shit, but he's also just the music guy. He doesn't really have an avenue to directly inject his views into the DQ games, and from what I've heard (I don't play DQ) those views don't show up. So separating art from artist is not that hard to do in that scenario.
With Hashino, though, he does have that avenue. And not only is there evidence that his views are bleeding into the text, but there's potential evidence that his views are bleeding more into each new text. So separating the two becomes harder, because now it's something the consumer has to directly. confront.
The only Atlus thing I've bought is the Joker DLC for Smash Ultimate, so this doesn't affect me too much. That said, I think it'd be nice if Hashino forming Studio Zero means he isn't involved with Persona 6. Just to confirm that it really is him, and not Atlus as a whole.
I haven't fully figured out what my plan is which unfortunately isn't an option in the poll. I largely want to see what Atlus/SEGA do in response. Either a patch from the Japanese side (which seems unlikely) or content edits from the localization team would be the best course. The changes in Full Body significantly dampen my enthusiasm for Re:Fantasy which has a lot of potential to go sideways (hello Cleric class). I've still got an original copy of Catherine sitting in shrinkwrap so Fully Body was always kind of an "i'm not sure i need this right now" project and right now I'm thinking I'm ok with just playing that even though it still has problematic bits.
I thought it was either stated previously or is largely believed that a different team (presumably whoever is left at P-Studio) is handling Persona 6.
I thought it was either stated previously or is largely believed that a different team (presumably whoever is left at P-Studio) is handling Persona 6.
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I hate those kinds of comments. Nobody is suppressing anything here, especially not creator freedom. It's just called being accountable for your work.
A customer deciding not to buy something because of moral issues is not a situation of censorship or suppression of anything. People need to educate themselves about the real meaning of these concepts.
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