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HDR games analysed

Oct 26, 2017
8,126
Hellblade has a slightly confusing Gamma setting, it tells you to set the brightness slider until the image below is barely visible. The thing is, there are two images. But I get it, the left most image should barely be visible and the right image is fully visible.

I do wonder why there isn't a HDR setting here though.
 
Jun 10, 2018
96
I turned the dynamic backlight as soon as it showed up.



Thanks again
The icons i can't see are the HDR brightness, the visible i have to make an effort to see it, the other two are still total white, i do have an xbox one X, but still not much different, i feel stupid now, but i can't find the "brightness" option in the tv: https://imgur.com/a/88QjZ9U

I'll download forza horizon 4 demo to try.
Another thing I noticed is that you have Contrast set to 93. Try bringing that down or reset the picture settings to see what it's default value is. Forza Horizon 4 is a test for calibrating. Turn your contrast down to default or around 50. And use Forza Horizon 4's HDR settings (and push the HDR Brightness right until it clips and then push it back down one notch) to see how far you can bring Contrast up before it clips.

On my current display I can push Contrast up to 56 before it starts clipping.
 
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EvilBoris
Oct 29, 2017
4,055
I turned the dynamic backlight as soon as it showed up.



Thanks again
The icons i can't see are the HDR brightness, the visible i have to make an effort to see it, the other two are still total white, i do have an xbox one X, but still not much different, i feel stupid now, but i can't find the "brightness" option in the tv: https://imgur.com/a/88QjZ9U

I'll download forza horizon 4 demo to try.
Sorry, it's black level on your display.

Leave contrast on 100

If you still can't get those icons to appear, try some gamma settings
 
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EvilBoris
Oct 29, 2017
4,055
Hellblade has a slightly confusing Gamma setting, it tells you to set the brightness slider until the image below is barely visible. The thing is, there are two images. But I get it, the left most image should barely be visible and the right image is fully visible.

I do wonder why there isn't a HDR setting here though.
It doesn't actually have any effect on the image (beyond the menu), they obviously just forgot to remove it.
 
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EvilBoris
Oct 29, 2017
4,055
Hey EvilBoris! Bungie supposedly tweaked the HDR in Destiny 2 again with the latest patch, but to be honest I can't say I've noticed any differences. Were you planning on taking another look at the game?



https://www.bungie.net/en/Explore/Detail/News/47462

I've spent the evening checking it and have also checked the black point setting against a reference, a value or 3 or 4 in the SDR mode will carry across an appropriate value across into HDR (the game defaults to 4, so that may be the intended value)

The white point does function as they should now, however the same as before, if you go too far to the left with the black point adjustment it starts to break ( 47 dpad pack clicks right from the minimum value on the left is the lowest you can go)
I would take it this point and leave it there.

The weird lighting that occured in HDR on some missions and in certain caves (such as where failsafe is) on nessus has also been fixed in this update.

So beyond fixing it so people can't go too low with that black point setting, I think it's all good now.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
499
Just watched your HDR analysis on Battlefield V on HDTVTest on youtube. Nice work. And good to hear the analysis in your own voice :)

Hope im not breaking any forum rules in posting link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3tumQ8oYBI
Yup this video was fantastic and really informative on a area (HDR) a lot of these channels don't go into to much detail about. Need more vids like this please.
 
Sep 20, 2018
562
Yup. Next expansion they'll fix it and do what people asked for. Destiny 2 Year 3 will have proper HDR next September. Believe.
Please, you've got your expectations for Bungie totally backwards.

It will be Destiny 3 Year 2 in September 2020 that we receive proper HDR.
 
Nov 1, 2017
95
The wcg is dependant on brightness though isn't it? Which is where hdr comes into play I thought.
That is true.
Because the entire point of High Dynamic Range is... dynamic range - the difference between the brightest white and darkest black and how that should change based on how humans perceive light/contrast in the real world. What you're talking about would be Wide Color Gamut, which is a completely different thing even though it's a feature of the HDR10 format. And since the number of games that truly support WCG in their HDR implementations are... like, almost zero if not actually zero? Not much to discuss. The coarse re-maps from 8-bit to 10-bit that have convinced people that they're seeing "better/expanded colors" are not better... Just washed out in a way that makes people believe they're seeing more than there really is in the signal to see. This is because colors on your screen depend on both luminance (the amount of white) and chroma (the amount of color).
But hdr and wcg are intricately related. About games not supporting wcg, I'm not sure, colors do change a lot in games like Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Horizon Zero Dawn, GT Sport, FFXV and others.

Dynamic Range is specificly related to luminance and contrast.
HDR is achromatic.
Thank you for your answer.
 
Mar 7, 2018
13
But hdr and wcg are intricately related. About games not supporting wcg, I'm not sure, colors do change a lot in games like Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Horizon Zero Dawn, GT Sport, FFXV and others.
Colors change because remapping 8 bits of color data to 10 bit can inherently change the presentation of the colors. But that doesn't mean those games have a wider color gamut... It just means the underlying white level that the colors are laid onto may be different (whether because of gamma vs. EOTF, bad remapping/color space conversion, etc.), resulting in an obvious difference between the perception of colors in SDR versus HDR.

It can be hard to even know if a game uses 10-bit color from the source, even with gradients, because they can sometimes get away with dithering that is pretty convincing to the viewer. So you can't just assume those games actually support WCG in HDR just because the colors look different.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,126
So in Battlefront 2 it tells you to set the slider to the lowest value where the two rectangles still look identical. In my case with the Q9FN game settings on default that's at 16%. That's where both boxes look the same and the line is gone. Or should I still be able to see the line? It's interesting how far up you can go, I wonder why? The TV I got is one of the brightest out there now and I only need to set it at 16%. Default is 50%.

Same with BFV, it can go up to 2000 but it's at 1000 for me.
 
Oct 29, 2017
761
So in Battlefront 2 it tells you to set the slider to the lowest value where the two rectangles still look identical. In my case with the Q9FN game settings on default that's at 16%. That's where both boxes look the same and the line is gone. Or should I still be able to see the line? It's interesting how far up you can go, I wonder why? The TV I got is one of the brightest out there now and I only need to set it at 16%. Default is 50%.

Same with BFV, it can go up to 2000 but it's at 1000 for me.
Isn't the difference tone mapped to your display?
 
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EvilBoris
Oct 29, 2017
4,055
So in Battlefront 2 it tells you to set the slider to the lowest value where the two rectangles still look identical. In my case with the Q9FN game settings on default that's at 16%. That's where both boxes look the same and the line is gone. Or should I still be able to see the line? It's interesting how far up you can go, I wonder why? The TV I got is one of the brightest out there now and I only need to set it at 16%. Default is 50%.

Same with BFV, it can go up to 2000 but it's at 1000 for me.
16% is 1600nits peak, it defaults to 5000Nits, which is unachievable.

You shouldn’t be able to see the line, if you can , go just a little bit further, you are better off going a little over than under.

You should be getting the same rough values in differ ent games.
 
Oct 25, 2017
613
It’s unnecessary additional processing as far as I’m concerned.
Just so I'm clear on your recommendation here, even the apparently very good Dynamic Tone Mapping on the 2018 LG C8 should be a no fly zone for any type of content?

It seems like you could theoretically get a more dynamic image (even if it comes at the cost of overall brightness) by setting the application intentionally higher than the recommended 600-700nit limit of the display, but if I am understanding you correctly, that can actually cause the blacks to turn into greys as a result of doing this (even with the Dynamic Tone Mapping enabled) and so it should be avoided?

Still trying to fully comprehend this issue so I am completely prepare when my TV arrives.

Microsoft delegates handling of HDR toggling to system level. So to disable HDR with an Xbox, you have to go to your system display settings and disable it there (and restart the game I believe, or else you will end up with bad output)
This seems like it could be really obnoxious if I play BC games with no native HDR support. Is it not smart enough to auto detect the output from the game and switch on the fly?
 
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EvilBoris
Oct 29, 2017
4,055
The thing is, they are already doing tone mapping anyway that can’t be disabled. Turning it on will simply move the image away from the creators intent.
I’m sure it has its uses if you are finding an image too dark
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,126
16% is 1600nits peak, it defaults to 5000Nits, which is unachievable.

You shouldn’t be able to see the line, if you can , go just a little bit further, you are better off going a little over than under.

You should be getting the same rough values in differ ent games.
Good to know man, thanks a lot. :)

In some games like Gears you don't see a number, just a slider, so in those cases I'll just do exactly what the game says.
 
Oct 25, 2017
613
The thing is, they are already doing tone mapping anyway that can’t be disabled. Turning it on will simply move the image away from the creators intent.
I’m sure it has its uses if you are finding an image too dark
Can it be used to correct in the cases where the creator's intent is hot garbage (like MHW, for example)?

I'm getting a lot of mixed recommendations for the feature but I trust your opinion over that of anyone else, I guess I'm just trying to understand what situations the feature would actually be helpful in.

Thank you so much for all of your help and amazingly useful analysis, I can't overstate how appreciative I am of your insight.

Do you know anyone who does movie analysis in a similar vein? I find that even at places like blu-ray.com have startlingly thin breakdowns of HDR performance - almost all of it is short and subjective and it's really frustrating when I'm trying to determine ideal demo discs and such.

It seems the only true expert on HDR in the consumer realm is, well, you - and I find that really puzzling given how much the entertainment industry is investing in this technology.
 
Oct 25, 2017
502
OK, so just had a look at gears of war, the first you you can always do to get the best from a display is to get the black level right.

You need to be in a dark room for this to.
So in gears of war 4 go the the video screen and reset the settings to default.

Now at a guess you are going to be able to see all 3 icons very clearly.
Rather than adjust the in game slider, let's adjust the TV's brightness down until it matches the desription, there will be a point where the "not visible" icon disspears, it might the just a single click's difference on the TV settings.

Once that is there, you should then be just able to make out the "barely visible" one.

Once you've done that I suspect that you will be able to get the white emblems visible and that should set you in good stead for other games.

For other games that I always found easy to get good results

Forza Horizon 4 demo
Rise of the Tomb Raider (Game pass) might only be HDR on X
Hitman (game pass)
Another thing I noticed is that you have Contrast set to 93. Try bringing that down or reset the picture settings to see what it's default value is. Forza Horizon 4 is a test for calibrating. Turn your contrast down to default or around 50. And use Forza Horizon 4's HDR settings (and push the HDR Brightness right until it clips and then push it back down one notch) to see how far you can bring Contrast up before it clips.

On my current display I can push Contrast up to 56 before it starts clipping.
So resetting my tv settings is
backlight 100
contrast 50
black level 50

Doing that i can see the 3 images fine in forza 4 but no in gears of war (still all almost completely white), i may have to tweak the gama for gears, or maybe forget it, and just play other games.
I barely see any change moving the contrast slider.
This tv doesn't even have the option to turn HDR off, is automatic if the signal is HDR which is annoying because some games don't have the option.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,146
This seems like it could be really obnoxious if I play BC games with no native HDR support. Is it not smart enough to auto detect the output from the game and switch on the fly?
As far as I know, your TV/Xbox will only switch into HDR mode when dealing with a game or app that has HDR support so this shouldn't be an issue. It becomes a hassle though when you want to disable HDR just for a single game, like RDR2 for example. The PS4 allows this since HDR is part of each game's settings. The Xbox relies on system settings. It's the same situation in Windows too (probably an SDK trait)
 
Jun 10, 2018
96
So resetting my tv settings is
backlight 100
contrast 50
black level 50

Doing that i can see the 3 images fine in forza 4 but no in gears of war (still all almost completely white), i may have to tweak the gama for gears, or maybe forget it, and just play other games.
I barely see any change moving the contrast slider.
This tv doesn't even have the option to turn HDR off, is automatic if the signal is HDR which is annoying because some games don't have the option.
You should test if lowering Black Level or Contrast resolves more detail. I know the 2018 Vizio E-Series was like that as well. Lowering Contrast and Black Level would resolve more specular highlight details
 
Oct 27, 2017
385
Hey EvilBoris I own the TCL 6 series which I think tone maps up to 4000 nits. Now BFV slider goes up to 2000 (I think). I can’t match the 5% white square, the TV is slighter darker on the left side. Is there any harm just keep in game HDR slider at max 2000?
 
Oct 25, 2017
613
Hey EvilBoris I own the TCL 6 series which I think tone maps up to 4000 nits. Now BFV slider goes up to 2000 (I think). I can’t match the 5% white square, the TV is slighter darker on the left side. Is there any harm just keep in game HDR slider at max 2000?
It sounds like your setup might not be correct - are you sure that HDR is enabled? The TCL 6 series has a maximum output of just over 600 nits, according to Doctor Google. The square should white out right around that point.

Edit: Totally missed that tone-mapping was enabled. I think the recommendation is to keep that disabled.
 
Oct 27, 2017
385
It sounds like your setup might not be correct - are you sure that HDR is enabled? The TCL 6 series has a maximum output of just over 600 nits, according to Doctor Google. The square should white out right around that point.

Edit: Totally missed that tone-mapping was enabled. I think the recommendation is to keep that disabled.
With all due respect you can’t disable tone mapping on the TCL. The 6 series peak brightness is 600–700 nits similar to an OLED but it can retain specular highlight detail up to 4000 nits. It doesn’t clip.
 
Oct 28, 2017
3,690
texas
It sounds like your setup might not be correct - are you sure that HDR is enabled? The TCL 6 series has a maximum output of just over 600 nits, according to Doctor Google. The square should white out right around that point.

Edit: Totally missed that tone-mapping was enabled. I think the recommendation is to keep that disabled.
All HDR TVs use tone mapping. Not something you can disable.

Maybe you’re thinking of dynamic tone mapping.
 
Oct 27, 2017
448
Wasn't Shadow of the Tomb Raider supposed to be one of the best HDR implementations?

I'm frustrated, in my NU8000 it looks washed out, and yes, everything is well calibrated.

It seems that 5 out of 10 games that I test look washed out in HDR, and the ones that look perfect in HDR are always the Sony exclusives (God of War, SotC, Spiderman, Detroit).
 
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Nov 1, 2017
557
So in Battlefront 2 it tells you to set the slider to the lowest value where the two rectangles still look identical. In my case with the Q9FN game settings on default that's at 16%. That's where both boxes look the same and the line is gone. Or should I still be able to see the line? It's interesting how far up you can go, I wonder why? The TV I got is one of the brightest out there now and I only need to set it at 16%. Default is 50%.

Same with BFV, it can go up to 2000 but it's at 1000 for me.
Hmm i set mine @1960 before clipping.
Brightness 50
 
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EvilBoris
Oct 29, 2017
4,055
Wasn't Shadow of the Tomb Raider supposed to be one of the best HDR implementations?

I'm frustrated, in my NU8000 it looks washed out, and yes, everything is well calibrated.

It seems that 5 out of 10 games that I test look washed out in HDR, and the ones that look perfect in HDR are always the Sony exclusives (God of War, SotC, Spiderman, Detroit).
What do you mean by washed out?
 
Jun 10, 2018
96
With all due respect you can’t disable tone mapping on the TCL. The 6 series peak brightness is 600–700 nits similar to an OLED but it can retain specular highlight detail up to 4000 nits. It doesn’t clip.
Yup, that is true of all TCL Roku TV's I believe. Even the S405 tone maps up to 4000 nits.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,812
Los Angeles, CA
Any way to tell what our TVs max nits output is ? I have a TCL I bought at Costco last year and I think it looks great for HDR games. Thanks
If the manufacturer doesn't say on their spec sheets all you can really do is rely on someone whose measured it. Most reviewers do that now so look for reviews on your TV. Especially with sets that claim HDR support. You probably won't find anything official if it is a lower-end tv.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,126
No but I assume the Q9 should be higher than 1000.
I'm gonna look some more into this because I am fairly sure the nits of the Q9FN is definitely higher than 1000 yeah. In SDR for sure, not fully certain about the nits in HDR.

I took a look at the Rtings page for the TV and found this.

HDR Real Scene Peak Brightness
: 908 cd/m²
HDR Peak 2% Window
: 1695 cd/m²
HDR Peak 10% Window
: 1763 cd/m²
HDR Peak 25% Window
: 1057 cd/m²
HDR Peak 50% Window
: 812 cd/m²
HDR Peak 100% Window
: 678 cd/m²
HDR Sustained 2% Window
: 1677 cd/m²
HDR Sustained 10% Window
: 1727 cd/m²
HDR Sustained 25% Window
: 1052 cd/m²
HDR Sustained 50% Window
: 812 cd/m²
HDR Sustained 100% Window
: 677 cd/m²

Which one do I look for here to know what nits of HDR on my TV is?
 
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EvilBoris
Oct 29, 2017
4,055
I'm gonna look some more into this because I am fairly sure the nits of the Q9FN is definitely higher than 1000 yeah. In SDR for sure, not fully certain about the nits in HDR.

I took a look at the Rtings page for the TV and found this.

HDR Real Scene Peak Brightness
: 908 cd/m²
HDR Peak 2% Window
: 1695 cd/m²
HDR Peak 10% Window
: 1763 cd/m²
HDR Peak 25% Window
: 1057 cd/m²
HDR Peak 50% Window
: 812 cd/m²
HDR Peak 100% Window
: 678 cd/m²
HDR Sustained 2% Window
: 1677 cd/m²
HDR Sustained 10% Window
: 1727 cd/m²
HDR Sustained 25% Window
: 1052 cd/m²
HDR Sustained 50% Window
: 812 cd/m²
HDR Sustained 100% Window
: 677 cd/m²

Which one do I look for here to know what nits of HDR on my TV is?

These are basically talking about how the % of the screen can be pushed to the designated output.
As a rule of thumb, the bigger the area is, the less bright it will be.
So your display can reach it’s very brightest on an area 10% the size of the screen (1763nits) for a short time.

When the display needs to sustain this , it drops back a little to 1727nits.

With this in mind if you had your display calibrated you should be finding this is the approximate value you are moving the slider in many games to
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,126
These are basically talking about how the % of the screen can be pushed to the designated output.
As a rule of thumb, the bigger the area is, the less bright it will be.
So your display can reach it’s very brightest on an area 10% the size of the screen (1763nits) for a short time.

When the display needs to sustain this , it drops back a little to 1727nits.

With this in mind if you had your display calibrated you should be finding this is the approximate value you are moving the slider in many games to
1727? OK I will give this a shot tomorrow.

With having my display calibrated you mean by a professional one, right? Ever since I got my first plasma I've been considering it. I might push through with that next year for this one if I can find a good one in my country and one that isn't expensive as all hell, haha. And he'd have to calibrate for both movies/shows and gaming.
 
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EvilBoris
Oct 29, 2017
4,055
1727? OK I will give this a shot tomorrow.

With having my display calibrated you mean by a professional one, right? Ever since I got my first plasma I've been considering it. I might push through with that next year for this one if I can find a good one in my country and one that isn't expensive as all hell, haha. And he'd have to calibrate for both movies/shows and gaming.
I just mean that you might not achieve the same values as that chart without calibration, but I’d expect it to be in a similar ballpark
 
Nov 1, 2017
557
1727? OK I will give this a shot tomorrow.

With having my display calibrated you mean by a professional one, right? Ever since I got my first plasma I've been considering it. I might push through with that next year for this one if I can find a good one in my country and one that isn't expensive as all hell, haha. And he'd have to calibrate for both movies/shows and gaming.
You are hitting 1000 so some tweaking is needed.
 
Oct 25, 2017
613
With all due respect you can’t disable tone mapping on the TCL. The 6 series peak brightness is 600–700 nits similar to an OLED but it can retain specular highlight detail up to 4000 nits. It doesn’t clip.
I see. So the regular tone mapping done by every set is just part of HDR, but the dynamic tone mapping on the LG's is proprietary. I had misunderstood how it worked (I thought all TVs had the same functionality).

All HDR TVs use tone mapping. Not something you can disable.

Maybe you’re thinking of dynamic tone mapping.
Yes, I was - I guess I thought that the dynamic tone mapping was just something that was a standard feature of all HDR sets.
 
Nov 8, 2017
102
Wasn't Shadow of the Tomb Raider supposed to be one of the best HDR implementations?

I'm frustrated, in my NU8000 it looks washed out, and yes, everything is well calibrated.

It seems that 5 out of 10 games that I test look washed out in HDR, and the ones that look perfect in HDR are always the Sony exclusives (God of War, SotC, Spiderman, Detroit).
Many games on ps4 have incorrectly set black levels and in-game controls cannot resolve the issue. The only solution is to lower the brightness setting of your display - which can lead to posterisation and affect the tonemapping. Assassin's creed origins, Shadow of the tomb raider, and rdr2 all have raised black levels in hdr mode. I don't understand how this is not being reported as an issue.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,126
I'd like to see Destiny 2 done. It seems to have gotten a lil better recently, but has been mostly a mess, IIRC.
Yeah this!

I recently fired up the trial because I was expecting great things from this game with HDR on the Q9FN and I set the settings correctly but I couldn't really get it right. It was either way too dark, really crushing black detail or it was too bright, like a black level that is set to the wrong value. Which isn't the case (black level low on TV, standard on Xbox) and I believe this was with default game mode settings.

Speaking of which, yesterday I decided to follow a YouTuber's Q9FN settings. Most of the things looked good until he changed the Gamma from 0 to - 1. As soon as I do that it messed up the HDR calibration in Battlefield 5. I was able to crank up that slider to the max and I still saw the line. At first I thought the culprit was contrast enhancer set to high (I definitely prefer that in many games) but that wasn't it at all.

I'm just gonna leave the gamma alone. For some reason Rtings says to change it to +1 I believe but I don't see why, since it unnecessarily brightens games more. Or a movie for that matter.
 
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Nov 1, 2017
557
Yeah this!

I recently fired up the trial because I was expecting great things from this game with HDR on the Q9FN and I set the settings correctly but I couldn't really get it right. It was either way too dark, really crushing black detail or it was too bright, like a black level that is set to the wrong value. Which isn't the case (black level low on TV, standard on Xbox) and I believe this was with default game mode settings.

Speaking of which, yesterday I decided to follow a YouTuber's Q9FN settings. Most of the things looked good until he changed the Gamma from 0 to - 1. As soon as I do that it messed up the HDR calibration in Battlefield 5. I was able to crank up that slider to the max and I still saw the line. At first I thought the culprit was contrast enhancer set to high (I definitely prefer that in many games) but that wasn't it at all.

I'm just gonna leave the gamma alone. For some reason Rtings says to change it to +1 I believe but I don't see why, since it unnecessarily brightens games more. Or a movie for that matter.
Dont you own a Sony as well?