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HDR games analysed

Oct 26, 2017
277
It'd probably make sense to merge this and the other HDR thread.
Couple of observations on a couple PlayStation exclusives I've been revisiting:

  • Uncharted 4
    Picking up a treasure seemingly disables HDR momentarily - or for as long as it's show on-screen. Not sure if this also applies to Lost Legacy.

  • God of War
    I've gone back and forth with the settings. It seems to me the game still gets plenty bright where it's intended with Brightness set to 0, without blowing out detail. The Summit (mountain top area, where you first meet Mimir) seems like a good place to try out some of the settings. The sun there is probably as bright as it gets.
 
Apr 15, 2018
59
Dynamic Range is specificly related to luminance and contrast.
HDR is achromatic.
This actually shocks me. Was the marketing about some Ferrari's reds "finally" being possible to depict, just a lie?
Edit: It would seem PS4Pro supports wide color gamut in addition to HDR, and Sony essentially didn't market them seperately.
 
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EvilBoris
Oct 29, 2017
4,645
This actually shocks me. Was the marketing about some Ferrari's reds "finally" being possible to depict, just a lie?
Edit: It would seem PS4Pro supports wide color gamut in addition to HDR, and Sony essentially didn't market them seperately.
Yeah that's really common that they get lumped together, but they are actually different technologie and concepts.

I mean, Ferrari Rosso Corsa red does have a regular RGB value, so saying it simply isn't possible on older displays is perhaps stretching the truth a little. But perhaps it wasn't intented to be taken literally.
 
Oct 27, 2017
658
England
Yeah that's really common that they get lumped together, but they are actually different technologie and concepts.

I mean, Ferrari Rosso Corsa red does have a regular RGB value, so saying it simply isn't possible on older displays is perhaps stretching the truth a little. But perhaps it wasn't intented to be taken literally.
I just started shadow of the tomb raider on pro and on my OLED regardless of settings the blacks are all grey kind of like an lcd hdr without local dimming. Is this normal?

It took me by surprise after digital foundrys glowing recommendation of the hdr
 
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EvilBoris
Oct 29, 2017
4,645
I just started shadow of the tomb raider on pro and on my OLED regardless of settings the blacks are all grey kind of like an lcd hdr without local dimming. Is this normal?

It took me by surprise after digital foundrys glowing recommendation of the hdr
Yeah that’s how it looks, they are going for a very Matt, film like look. That does clean up depending on the stage you are on. The lighting and the HDR are AAA.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,992
Trying out the DMCV demo. Maximum luminance here as well should be put to about 1700 right? Even though the calibration white box already looks correct with default setting. Which is 750.
 
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EvilBoris
Oct 29, 2017
4,645
Trying out the DMCV demo. Maximum luminance here as well should be put to about 1700 right? Even though the calibration white box already looks correct with default setting. Which is 750.

The calibration for whitepoint is actaully broken, it will give a lower number than what it is scarily outputting. Just follow the description to make the white box disappear.

As for the paper white setting, I think technically it should be ok 50, but the aesthetic doesn’t quite look right in HDR with it set they low, so somewhere just above 100 is what I’m thinking of at the moment.

The other option is to use the method that RESI7 uses for the paper white, which is to get it so that the red and blue bars are the same size, after you've set your paper white
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,992
The calibration for whitepoint is actaully broken, it will give a lower number than what it is scarily outputting. Just follow the description to make the white box disappear.

As for the paper white setting, I think technically it should be ok 50, but the aesthetic doesn’t quite look right in HDR with it set they low, so somewhere just above 100 is what I’m thinking of at the moment.

The other option is to use the method that RESI7 uses for the paper white, which is to get it so that the red and blue bars are the same size, after you've set your paper white
I knew something was off as soon as I started playing, the HDR didn't blow me away. And when I tried SDR and noticed that it looked pretty much the same.....

Paper white is the third menu right? When I choose brightness I first get a menu that says that the screen may look different depending on the angle you view it from. And it shows a + and arrows in the middle of the screen. Second page is luminance and third has the "emphasize dark/light areas.".

I definitely need to change something there because the HDR doesn't stand out at all on my Q9FN with the default settings.
 
Oct 27, 2017
485
I've spent the evening checking it and have also checked the black point setting against a reference, a value or 3 or 4 in the SDR mode will carry across an appropriate value across into HDR (the game defaults to 4, so that may be the intended value)

The white point does function as they should now, however the same as before, if you go too far to the left with the black point adjustment it starts to break ( 47 dpad pack clicks right from the minimum value on the left is the lowest you can go)
I would take it this point and leave it there.

The weird lighting that occured in HDR on some missions and in certain caves (such as where failsafe is) on nessus has also been fixed in this update.

So beyond fixing it so people can't go too low with that black point setting, I think it's all good now.
I kept the white point centered perfectly at 30 clicks – I counted 60 in total, lol. Also I sent brightness at 4 like you said. Im playing on a TCL 605 which tone maps to 4000 nits. It looks good.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,315
Count me in on not being super impressed with DMCV's HDR. On my B7 1750 was the magic number to merge the two boxes, and it tops out at 2000 which I immediately found odd.
 
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EvilBoris
Oct 29, 2017
4,645
Count me in on not being super impressed with DMCV's HDR. On my B7 1750 was the magic number to merge the two boxes, and it tops out at 2000 which I immediately found odd.
It’s very very flat, pretty much identical to how it is in SDRz light sources do go much higher, but almost look at pods because of how much tone mapping and tone compression is happening in other parts of the image
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,992
Count me in on not being super impressed with DMCV's HDR. On my B7 1750 was the magic number to merge the two boxes, and it tops out at 2000 which I immediately found odd.
I double checked for my Q9FN and at the default luminance of 750 I still see the lines of the box. At 950 the line is gone and it's one bright white box. I don't even need to go higher it seems.

What have you set the last menu? Default is at 175 and it seems the blue bar is the same size as the red bar. I find the HDR effects rather tame/toned down. When I increase this setting a little towards Emphasize light areas things like special effects, the sky, water puddles and especially street lights and just light sources in general really give that HDR effect what you get from other games as well.

But if I increase that the overall brightness looks off, the nighttime looks too bright. What did you set the last setting at?

And really with SDR, I don't know, as soon as I start the game and you see the intro screens it's weird dark grey, looks washed out, and my guess is this should be pitch black.

It’s very very flat, pretty much identical to how it is in SDRz light sources do go much higher, but almost look at pods because of how much tone mapping and tone compression is happening in other parts of the image
Really odd though because I recall Digital Foundry being quite fond of the HDR in their footage a month or so ago?
 
Oct 25, 2017
677
I did start to take a really good look, I think they all go upto 1000nits.
Halo 1 and 2 don't natively render in HDR, so I think that it has been expanded upto 1000nits.
Halo 3 used a kind of pseudo HDR, I didn't get as far as trying to work out whether this had changed in the MCC vs the 360 enhanced version.

I suspect Halo 4 used the same technique as Halo 3, as I was seeing some artifacts that kind of fit in with that.
I'm having a really hard time dialing in the settings on the MCC to get HDR down right.

I've heard a lot of conflicting advice on how to configure it but somehow the default settings look the best on my C8?

Lowering the nits darkens the image too much, and raising the paper white settings blows out the image almost immediately. The contrast setting causes equally wild swings.

Compared to Forza 7 and AC: Origins it just seems awkward.
 
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EvilBoris
Oct 29, 2017
4,645
Just so it is in this thread, here are the Destiny 2 videos and the Battlefield V Videos I've done for HDTVtest


I've been having a closer look at the DMCV demo.
The max brightness slider is totally broken, the actual visualistion don't create the same results as the number on screen.

The number on screen is actually correct, so you'll just need to use a value you are familar with from another game, it should always be about the same.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,315
Just so it is in this thread, here are the Destiny 2 videos and the Battlefield V Videos I've done for HDTVtest


I've been having a closer look at the DMCV demo.
The max brightness slider is totally broken, the actual visualistion don't create the same results as the number on screen.

The number on screen is actually correct, so you'll just need to use a value you are familar with from another game, it should always be about the same.
So, 1000 for an LG B7?

Btw, will you only be producing videos on HDTVtest or will you be making them with Digital-Foundry as well?
 
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EvilBoris
Oct 29, 2017
4,645
So, 1000 for an LG B7?

Btw, will you only be producing videos on HDTVtest or will you be making them with Digital-Foundry as well?
If you normally end up at 1000, then yes, use that value in DMC as well.

I'll make videos for whoever asks me too. I just enjoy talking about this stuff.
 
Jan 30, 2018
4,976
I wonder what the next game will be to disappoint with HDR.
Resident Evil 2 and DMCV will be alright, I think Anthem, Crackdown 3 and Days Gone will be fine.
Games like Metro, Dying Light 2 and Doom Eternal though I reckon those will find a way to be in the Fallout 76 and Red Dead 2 situation.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,315
I wonder what the next game will be to disappoint with HDR.
Resident Evil 2 and DMCV will be alright, I think Anthem, Crackdown 3 and Days Gone will be fine.
Games like Metro, Dying Light 2 and Doom Eternal though I reckon those will find a way to be in the Fallout 76 and Red Dead 2 situation.
RE2 and DMCV actually have me worried. The HDR in the Xbox demo for DMCV seems fine, but has weird adjusting values. RE7 had solid HDR, so it's weird that other RE Engine games aren't just following the same method.
 
Jan 30, 2018
4,976
RE2 and DMCV actually have me worried. The HDR in the Xbox demo for DMCV seems fine, but has weird adjusting values. RE7 had solid HDR, so it's weird that other RE Engine games aren't just following the same method.
I forgot about the demo, Boris should check that out too. I also find it weird that a game with the same engine would have worse HDR than another game. I’m betting that you have to adjust on a game by game basis.
Like what works for Horizon might not work out for Death Stranding because they’re different in what they’re going for - photorealism Death Stranding vs hyper realistic in Horizon.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,315
I forgot about the demo, Boris should check that out too. I also find it weird that a game with the same engine would have worse HDR than another game. I’m betting that you have to adjust on a game by game basis.
Like what works for Horizon might not work out for Death Stranding because they’re different in what they’re going for - photorealism Death Stranding vs hyper realistic in Horizon.
He has, that's how I knew the values were messed up. He mentioned it a few posts up. Can't blame you for missing it, as it's right under two youtube embeds so it's easy to miss.
 
Jan 30, 2018
4,976
He has, that's how I knew the values were messed up. He mentioned it a few posts up. Can't blame you for missing it, as it's right under two youtube embeds so it's easy to miss.
I totally missed it thanks. I pressed jumped to new and landed at the Fallout 76 post.
I’m getting worried about Resident Evil 2 now. That’s the one that has to work for me, they seem to have lots of dark scenes, if those blacks are grey it’ll be disappointing.
 
Oct 25, 2017
677
I gotta admit, I feel a little guilty, but after endless trial and error I have given up on trying to calibrate on a game-by-game basis and just enable Dynamic Tone Mapping on my C8. It looks amazing and outside of the brightness and Max nits sliders I don't really have to mess with it. Seems to work very well, and honestly maybe even looks completely better in certain cases (does a lot to recover brightness as well).
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,397
Ottawa Canada
Just so it is in this thread, here are the Destiny 2 videos and the Battlefield V Videos I've done for HDTVtest


I've been having a closer look at the DMCV demo.
The max brightness slider is totally broken, the actual visualistion don't create the same results as the number on screen.

The number on screen is actually correct, so you'll just need to use a value you are familar with from another game, it should always be about the same.
What do you recommend for HDR on PC? Enable HDR in windows, and then should I put in-game brightness to 4 like on xbox?
 
Oct 26, 2017
277
It's been a while since the news about the HDR Gaming Interest Group came out, but I am really quite curious about which dynamic metadata (DV, HDR10+) format the next consoles may gravitate towards. I imagine HDR10+ is the more enticing offering financially between the two, even if DV is currently more readily available.

Though I guess static metadata wouldn't be an issue later in the generation if mLED displays become mainstream. I really hope we can bid farewell (forced) ABL when that day comes.
 
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EvilBoris
Oct 29, 2017
4,645
Hope you can check out the Resident Evil 2 1-Shot Demo EvilBoris . I just played it and the HDR was giving me some serious elevated blacks.
I couldn’t even find it on the store.

Is it the same setup as Resi 7 and DMCV?

I’d so , you need to ignore the red/blue thing and set that to a value as close to 100 as you can handle.
It’s very similar to a “paper white” adjustment.
In DMC I would be somewhere around 150 and certainly no higher than 200
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,315
I couldn’t even find it on the store.

Is it the same setup as Resi 7 and DMCV?

I’d so , you need to ignore the red/blue thing and set that to a value as close to 100 as you can handle.
It’s very similar to a “paper white” adjustment.
In DMC I would be somewhere around 150 and certainly no higher than 200
It isn't out in the US until tomorrow, it's currently up in New Zealand, Australia, and Japan. You can download it with an Xbox account from any region, click this link and choose to stay in NZ: https://www.microsoft.com/en-nz/p/resident-evil-2-1-shot-demo/bwn8kd5fhpgr?activetab=pivot:overviewtab Id the download doesn't push, you just need to go into your Xbox settings and change your location to New Zealand.

To answer your question; Yes, it's the exact same setup as DMC5. The difference being is there are no numbers, it's just a slider, so no clue where it should go.
 
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EvilBoris
Oct 29, 2017
4,645
It isn't out in the US until tomorrow, it's currently up in New Zealand, Australia, and Japan. You can download it with an Xbox account from any region, click this link and choose to stay in NZ: https://www.microsoft.com/en-nz/p/resident-evil-2-1-shot-demo/bwn8kd5fhpgr?activetab=pivot:overviewtab Id the download doesn't push, you just need to go into your Xbox settings and change your location to New Zealand.

To answer your question; Yes, it's the exact same setup as DMC5. The difference being is there are no numbers, it's just a slider, so no clue where it should go.
ah.
Which makes it hard to give an answer as it scales depending on your maximum luminance value
I think DMC starts at 50 or 80 nits (with the blue side being the smallest it can be) Each click is probabably 10nits, so maybe 8 or 9 clicks from that position should take you to a good place.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,315
ah.
Which makes it hard to give an answer as it scales depending on your maximum luminance value
I think DMC starts at 50 or 80 nits (with the blue side being the smallest it can be) Each click is probabably 10nits, so maybe 8 or 9 clicks from that position should take you to a good place.
I see. Well, I look forward to you taking a look at it. I really messed my time up in the demo following the instructions of the game, made the game very bright. I don't understand why devs continue to get this wrong...
 
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EvilBoris
Oct 29, 2017
4,645
Also worth mentioning, as something has changed but you want to have 422 enabled on the Xbox now, as the console will do 420 in HDR without it turned on (certainly on my alpha OS anyway)
 
Oct 27, 2017
531
What do you think of the Dynamic tone mapping in the LG 2018 oleds?

I've been using it because it's on by default and everyone say that it makes the image look better, but it makes kind of difficult to calibrate certain games HDR settings.
 
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EvilBoris
Oct 29, 2017
4,645
What do you think of the Dynamic tone mapping in the LG 2018 oleds?

I've been using it because it's on by default and everyone say that it makes the image look better, but it makes kind of difficult to calibrate certain games HDR settings.
I can't speak from first hand experience, as I don't own that display, but I can tell you what I think based upon what I know about image processing.
I personally wouldn't use it as technically in order to tonemap a moving image correctly (without pre-manufactured metadata), you need to know what is coming up so you can scale the shadows, mids and highs appropriately. This change is not only occuring within a single frame, but across a series of frames.

Think about exiting a tunnel ot walking through a dark room to the outside. When it's dark the dynamic tone mapper needs to make a decision about what to do with the image.

Should it lift the brightness in order to help improve visability in the shadows, this however comes at the expense of clipping white detail



Should it make the outside visible , but the inside becomes very dark



Or should the shadow detail be lifted and the highlights reduced to preserve detail, you flatten the image and reduce overally contrast and dynamic range, but maintain detail.


Now the display cannot possibly know what you are going to do next and how should it translate whatever decision it has made the the next action that is appearing on screen.

With movie content you can read ahead and look at what is coming to influence the current part of the image, but you cannot do that with a videogame (without inducing serious latency), so I doub't it's effectiveness.

This stuff is usually done by hand for movies based upon how they want a given scene and it is done programatically for videogames, because the in game tonemapper has a lot of information at any given point about what is the object in focus, your speed of movement and whether or not you are likely to exit that tunnel or not (in Shadow of the Tomb Raider you can occasionally see yourself stepping over a trigger that affects the exposure and tonemapping in exactly this situation)
You'll have come across the same thing with your smartphone camera struggling to decide how to tone map the HDR data of the real world into the very small dynamic range of you screen.



But anyway, back to your TV,
If you see any kind of swelling or pulsing of Dark or bright scenes, then you know that is the Dynamic Tone mapping in action however in a videogame where there is already a lot of tone mapping an exposure adjustment happening from the game engine, then you may not be able to even see it. Because it is a post process on to of the already tone mapped image, it may have the potential to excerbate banding. If it looks better to you, it looks better.

The Dynamic contrast on my Samsung display doesn't appear to actually do anything Dynamically in game mode, it appears to be varying degress of lifting the shadows and mid tones almost statically. If the LG set's behave in even a slightly similar way, then it may be something that you engage if you are in a sub optimal (light) viewing environment.
 
Oct 27, 2017
306
Seattle
I just started shadow of the tomb raider on pro and on my OLED regardless of settings the blacks are all grey kind of like an lcd hdr without local dimming. Is this normal?
That was certainly my experience as well on a QLED display. Criminally high black levels that require miscalibration of the display to look decent. It drives some of us up the wall and somehow other people don’t seem to see it at all.

It took me by surprise after digital foundrys glowing recommendation of the hdr
Yes, while Digital Foundry does some things well they somehow completely missed this travesty. I watch a ton of content on this display and what SotTR does isn’t cinematic, it’s just washed out to a degree that compromises the overall look of the game’s lighting.
 
Oct 27, 2017
658
England
That was certainly my experience as well on a QLED display. Criminally high black levels that require miscalibration of the display to look decent. It drives some of us up the wall and somehow other people don’t seem to see it at all.



Yes, while Digital Foundry does some things well they somehow completely missed this travesty. I watch a ton of content on this display and what SotTR does isn’t cinematic, it’s just washed out to a degree that compromises the overall look of the game’s lighting.

It did really irritate me. I had to either lower the black tone or use dynamic contrast to *fix* it
 
May 12, 2018
1,429
Vienna
That was certainly my experience as well on a QLED display. Criminally high black levels that require miscalibration of the display to look decent. It drives some of us up the wall and somehow other people don’t seem to see it at all.



Yes, while Digital Foundry does some things well they somehow completely missed this travesty. I watch a ton of content on this display and what SotTR does isn’t cinematic, it’s just washed out to a degree that compromises the overall look of the game’s lighting.
Yeah, playing games in HDR is often frustrating. SoTR has some great parts (like the ending) but the jungle looks like a washed out mess. Same with large parts of AC:Odyssey, or the Re2make demo
 
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EvilBoris
Oct 29, 2017
4,645
Just had a look at Resi 2 deom and have recorded the playback for further review.

my initially impressions are from the demo is that it's not a game that features a huge amount of dynamic range, I think this is likely just to keep it looking stylistically similar to the other titles in the series and give it a very typical japanese horror game look.
Shadow of the Collossus is very similar in this regards, it also has a very distinct look that is maintained in the remake.
It's very soft due to the compressed highlights but this fits in with some of the other unusual processing that is going on.
I didn't really witness any significant peak brightest, but if you did you out to the front of the station the lights there were noticable brightter than the interior, so it can get there

playing with the settings didin't really yield any huge variances of concern, I think it was easier to get a satisfactory result by following the instructions. The game definately raises the blacks, but I'm 100% sure this is intentional in this area. It may not be the same across the whole game.

For reference however, the lowest value for peak brightness is 300 nits and the maximum is 4000.
 
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