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HDR games analysed
- Thread starter EvilBoris
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No games on Xbox (beyond the insects demo possibly) are actually WCG.
Both consoles always output WCG if HDR is enabled, I'm sure auto will be fine either way.
I know that if i force my TV into WCG the colors look a bit too overblown, so Auto is the way to go on the OLEDS from what i've heard.
Just a quick question.
Is the regular PS4 capable of true HDR ? I was under the impression only the Pro could output in HDR but it seems i was wrong ?
Should I bother to rearrange my connection so that my PS4 doesn't pass through the old-ish Marantz receiver ?
Will it make any real difference on my not-very-bright (800 nits) TV anyway ?
Is the regular PS4 capable of true HDR ? I was under the impression only the Pro could output in HDR but it seems i was wrong ?
Should I bother to rearrange my connection so that my PS4 doesn't pass through the old-ish Marantz receiver ?
Will it make any real difference on my not-very-bright (800 nits) TV anyway ?
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It's not uncommon for TVs to oversaturate WCG content on purpose to show off, a bit like the "retail" mode
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It does but then i think the peak brightness value gets even lower.
Oh well, i'll just have to try.
Edit: and I did.
Man, I had no idea.
Tried Horizon, GOW, GT Sport, Ratchet.
GT was the best, as expected.
Horizon, I didn't like it very much, thought it was overdone and made the game look too saturated, shiny and contrasty. Unlike the others I found it significantly changed the overall tone of the game.
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I have a question for you guys and girls - and the resident expert EvilBoris
Like many people here, I love HDR in games and, when done right, the difference between HDR and SDR is very clear. However, I notice the difference between the two almost exclusively in bright highlights and, also, in a wider range of colors. Makes sense, of course. However, every description of HDR mentions "deeper blacks". I've never seen any deeper blacks or more shadow detail in HDR games compared to SDR titles. At first, I assumed my TV is to blame, but after upgrading to an OLED, I still don't see the difference in shadow detail. What am I missing?
Also, just saw this.... what do you mean they are not actually WCG? Just Xbox or PS4 too, because I can definitely see those reds and greens go nuts in HDR compared to SDR in God of War or Shadow of Tomb Raider.
Like many people here, I love HDR in games and, when done right, the difference between HDR and SDR is very clear. However, I notice the difference between the two almost exclusively in bright highlights and, also, in a wider range of colors. Makes sense, of course. However, every description of HDR mentions "deeper blacks". I've never seen any deeper blacks or more shadow detail in HDR games compared to SDR titles. At first, I assumed my TV is to blame, but after upgrading to an OLED, I still don't see the difference in shadow detail. What am I missing?
Also, just saw this.... what do you mean they are not actually WCG? Just Xbox or PS4 too, because I can definitely see those reds and greens go nuts in HDR compared to SDR in God of War or Shadow of Tomb Raider.
The "deeper black" thing regarding HDR is nonsense. RGB 0 (or RGB 16) is black. HDR doesn't enable some magical Spinal Tap "none more black" mode.
When someone in a store says HDR means deeper blacks you know they don't know what HDR is about. HDR is about colour volume, WCG and highlights.
When someone in a store says HDR means deeper blacks you know they don't know what HDR is about. HDR is about colour volume, WCG and highlights.
I've seen mention across the internet by people that on PC you shouldn't actually switch to YUV422 10bit for HDR, but instead leave it on RGB 8bit which will then apply dithering. The claim seems to be the loss of color information going from RGB to YUV422 is severe and that the 8bit with dithering is basically indistinguishable from 10bit. What's your thoughts on this EvilBoris ?
Well HDR is contrast and WCG, so I don't really think they're wrong.
What they mean to say and are using "deeper blacks" for shorthand is two things: Large amounts of contrast between light and dark areas of the screen, a screen technology that allows as close to true black as possible (i.e OLED vs LCD with local dimming vs LCD with a backlight, etc).
So yeah, black is black in terms of the HDR spec, but the quality of the screen will determine just how black a particular section of the screen or pixel is, especially when there are bright pixels nearby.
So I guess you're right too. It's not an HDR thing so much as it is an HDR panel (and quality there of) thing.
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The deeper blacks thing is someone of a misnomer, black is black. There is a little more information to describe more shades of grey. so banding will be reduced by about half.
Deeper blacks come from display technologies, not from the HDR format itself and even then it's only relative to those displays being able to display those deeper blacks and brighter whites simultaneously.
It varies from game to game, marketing teams and consoles(which makes it difficult to make a blanket statement, but most games developers who have documented their HDR render pipeline have said that the content is actually created in REC709 and then converted to Bt2020 in order to facilitate being output as HDR10.
I've not read any documentation from anybody doing anything except this.
Which I suppose would give you access to colours that sat outside of the REC709 colourspace previously, but the underlying data driving it means that there are still gaps. The colours will be different, but the possible number of simultaneously colours that can be displayed remains the same.
Oh man,,just read that now..sorry to hear as I was really looking forward to your analysis of MCC.
Hope you can still throw us a bone there (:
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I don't know enough about it to be honest, you are essentially disposing of information with either method, just in different ways.
There are a selection of PC games that do actually output 10bit and have the assets to match, so you definitely wouldn't want to use 8bit for that.
I just don't know which one to go with, I want to have the best experience. Ultimately, which "sacrifice" would you recommend?
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My gut feeling is to leave it 10bit, everything that the TV does processing wise for HDR is going to be expecting a 10bit signal.
Rtings has a section about Chroma subsampling and they talk about 4:4:4 as not really being of concern for anything beyond dektop like spreadsheeting where small text is involved.
https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/chroma-subsampling
If you are sitting at a typical viewing distance for a 55+inch display, then it very much sounds like it's a total irrelevance.
You need 10bit to even get it to activate HDR most of the time, not to mention 10bit is 4 times more information than 8bit, not double, and 4/2/2 is only half the chroma, and still full luma, so you are still getting 2/3rds of the data. The cherry on the top of all of this is the B7 (i have this same tv), has really shitty dithering. Stick to 4/2/2 10bit.
Edit: Bad math
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Boot the game in SDR and turn the brightness down, this will help with the overall brightness and black level when you come back to adjust in HDR.
Full post about it here
https://www.resetera.com/threads/hd...some-ps4-exclusives.27129/reply?quote=6107909
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When I said it gives double the data, I'm specifically refferring to the area that sits below 100 not- the bulk of the image even in most HDR presentations
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420 at the same bit depth as 422 has less colour detail , so I don't know why you'd choose 420.
You are literally throwing away information you could otherwise use, I mean it's probably absolutely minute and inperceiveable, but if it's there, you might as well use it.
That's the theory, goodness knows how a display could treat those signals differently and produce different results
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Yes - it should be appearing on Digital Foundry in about 7 hours
Glad to hear that that all came together. Are you an official member or a contributor? I hope official as I want a lot more HDR coverage on DF, especially when developers listen to DF and I want HDR in gaming to get better.
On X1X, when enabling 4:2:2 (or forcing any other Color Depth options other than 8-bit) , what happens is that all SDR content will be internally converted from RGB to 4:2:0 (visibly loosing clarity), while for all HDR contents all games are converted from RGB to 4:2:0 and then upconverted again from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 (but results are very similar to native 4:2:0).
For this reason, for X1X I recommend to Disable 4:2:2 altogether and to select Color Depth to 8-bit to get native RGB Limited @ 8-bit with no conversion for all SDR contents and only one conversion from RGB to 4:2:0 @ 10-bit (switched automatically) for all HDR/DV.
On PS4 Pro things works differently for sure, and as far as I know selecting 4:2:2 @ 10-bit should provide a better output both for SDR and HDR.
Just read your piece on DF and I've the following question. Should I just turn off HDR when playing RDR2? Or does it come down to preference? What would you recommend?
from the thread on the article
Destiny 2 still has crushed blacks/broken HDR as of yesterday's patch. At least for me on One X.
Yup. Next expansion they'll fix it and do what people asked for. Destiny 2 Year 3 will have proper HDR next September. Believe.
stumbled across this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJgXQ3qNg74
think you already saw it!?
the bullshit going on with fake 4k and hdr is pretty annoying..
think you already saw it!?
the bullshit going on with fake 4k and hdr is pretty annoying..
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What makes you think it is weak?
And man RDR in HDR lol oh how we waited to see something awesome.
I posted that video in the DF thread, good video explaining a lot beem subscribed to him for a while cool to see he works with Boris.
Comment section is bad as per youtube.
Need to get Vincent an Era account.
To me it seems like a very subdue implementation. For example the lampposts in night time compared to Infamous SS don't look very bright. Other than Electro's powers and the sun at dusk I don't really remember any moments that HDR added much to the image. Not bad but certainly not among the best.
And don't even get me started on RDR2. The more I play the more it saddens me we didn't get a good HDR implementation.
I see, I thought Spider-Man looked very good at night with the moonlight being very bright and how nicely red his suit goes under certain lighting conditions.
Red Dead is upsetting, I was so ready to see Rockstar set a new standard for HDR reference material to be met with the most sub-par implementation yet.
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I need to do a deeper dive into spider-man, but that was generally what I was seeing, it was fairly restrained in the day/night open world areas.
The first game I tried in HDR on my new Samsung Q9FN was Spiderman on PS4 Pro, this was after I've finished the game in SDR mind you, and I was very disappointed with my TV at first, I've since then seen games looking awesome in HDR, Forza Horizon 4. Gran Turismo Sport, and even Shadow of the Tomb Raider looks good after cranking up the brightness slider to max. When you look at the sun disk in Spiderman it's light grey in HDR with a tiny bright dot in the center ( in SDR the whole sunflare it dazzling white) and the whole image looks unexposed and washed out. Compared to other games where you are allowed to set a Max Nits point, Spiderman just assumes one for you and tonemaps the image to some sub 1000 nits target, also the brightness slider should equal the luminance/exposure level other games can set but I'm not sure what his does here, increasing it just makes the image look dyed in milk.
What's up with Black Ops 4 HDR? As far as I can tell it's unusable on both of my TVs. Washed out.
Is it just a slider or something else that's missing?
Is it just a slider or something else that's missing?
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Slider is broken, but it will look particuarly bad if you had your TV's brightness up a bit high.