Excellent, thanks a lot for the quick response, this is an awesome thread, the best I have seen in a while, really informative, I have had this doubt for so long and couldnt find and answer anywhere. Thanks again man.
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HDR games analysed
- Thread starter EvilBoris
- Start date
OP
OP
I had a look, those screenshots were taken with the brightness on the default setting and even with that we get a good range of contrast right from the darkest end from the scale up to the brightest.
It looks like it is moonlight in that picture, but it is actually daylight
I thought Gran Turismo Sport was considered the prime example of HDR implementation?
OP
OP
I think only because it looks nice and they've published a bit more information about the HDR side of their rendering which led everyone to believe it was somehow unique.
Somebody mentioned 10000nit output or something along those lines and the game being ahead of current mass market tv technology, may have been Kaz.
Again, thank you EvilBoris for this work.
Where does Tone Mapping fit into all of this? My limited understanding it is how the tv maps the nits that are higher than the peak brightness that tv is capable of?
Where does Tone Mapping fit into all of this? My limited understanding it is how the tv maps the nits that are higher than the peak brightness that tv is capable of?
OP
OP
I think that's how most people understand it, but it's not just about what happens above the Tv's capabilities, it's what happens on the way to it.
This graphy below shows the measured outputs from an OLED TV, the yellow line represents the standard for HDR and the grey line represents what the tv is actually outputting.
What you see here is that as the TV approaches it's highest values, it actually starts to deviate away from the standard, tone mapping the image with a curve into that 700nit area , it does this to ensure that there is no sudden steps in the colours of brightness.
Another TV may tone map differently
Here is a samsung LCD
This one here behaves differenty, it starts of meeting the standard, then when it gets to 300 nits, everything becomes much brighter, this keeps going all the way up to it's max 1400 at which point it just hard clips.
This is an example when the TV is being fed 1000nit metadata.
It may well be that TVs also tone map differently depending on the metadata, I mean that is what it is there for.
Thanks for the informative response.I think that's how most people understand it, but it's not just about what happens above the Tv's capabilities, it's what happens on the way to it.
This graphy below shows the measured outputs from an OLED TV, the yellow line represents the standard for HDR and the grey line represents what the tv is actually outputting.
What you see here is that as the TV approaches it's highest values, it actually starts to deviate away from the standard, tone mapping the image with a curve into that 700nit area , it does this to ensure that there is no sudden steps in the colours of brightness.
Another TV may tone map differently
Here is a samsung LCD
This one here behaves differenty, it starts of meeting the standard, then when it gets to 300 nits, everything becomes much brighter, this keeps going all the way up to it's max 1400 at which point it just hard clips.
This is an example when the TV is being fed 1000nit metadata.
It may well be that TVs also tone map differently depending on the metadata, I mean that is what it is there for.
I have started to see comments about Tone Mapping in 4K HDR TV reviews. Nice to learn how it actually applies.
Gran Turismo is absolutely brilliant, I tried it on a friend's house on a PRO with an LG B7 as well. But Gears is more spectacular overall, thanks to the god tier weather effects when combined with a capable HDR TV and the X. It has to be seen on person to be believed. And I m not even a big fan of Gears, like at all, but damn at those graphic.
HDR doesn't use RGB. When you're viewing HDR content it's either YUV420 (if your ps4 is set to it) or YUV422 (if your ps4 is set to RGB) so the RGB Range isn't used/is always Limited range.
So what would be the ideal settings for assassin's creed for a TCL 607?
Great thread, but I have some trouble fully understanding all of this.
Great thread, but I have some trouble fully understanding all of this.
I have read this
Thanks for the good read OP
Very good question as these stand out most on my TV
I'm on round 2 myself. I'm lost about how to setup your TV the correct way? Or is it on a tv to tv basis and you have to calibrate for games?
Thanks for the good read OP
Very good question as these stand out most on my TV
I'm getting some pretty amazing results with this rule of thumb. However, it doesn't seem to work on DICE games.
Now THIS is a hell of a post EvilBoris. Congratulations first and foremost!
Early adopter here, so much so my entire system is lacking object surround sound pass through (HDMI 2.0a from memory). Thankfully that hasn't seemed to take off in the wider sphere as of yet, while HDR is finally starting to hit the masses. Horizon was the first title that made me really "wow" at the difference between the two image qualities, so much so my partner (a relative no idea on the subject), even commented on the difference. HDR, when implemented correctly, truly is another step forward for image quality. It's only going to get more and more prominent - as the general consumer updates their set to HDR capable ones, and the movie industry keeps mastering and pushing the "experiences", I think we'll see the video game industry do much the same. My only wish is that it's kept simple, HDR10 or bust - this Vision/HDR10/whatever else standard JoBlo decides to roll has only confused even the most hardcore TV enthusiast, so fingers crossed we see our industry try keep it as simple as possible.
Early adopter here, so much so my entire system is lacking object surround sound pass through (HDMI 2.0a from memory). Thankfully that hasn't seemed to take off in the wider sphere as of yet, while HDR is finally starting to hit the masses. Horizon was the first title that made me really "wow" at the difference between the two image qualities, so much so my partner (a relative no idea on the subject), even commented on the difference. HDR, when implemented correctly, truly is another step forward for image quality. It's only going to get more and more prominent - as the general consumer updates their set to HDR capable ones, and the movie industry keeps mastering and pushing the "experiences", I think we'll see the video game industry do much the same. My only wish is that it's kept simple, HDR10 or bust - this Vision/HDR10/whatever else standard JoBlo decides to roll has only confused even the most hardcore TV enthusiast, so fingers crossed we see our industry try keep it as simple as possible.
OP
OP
Yeah sorry, I made a mistake with the DICE ones, default brightness is plenty good there
Thank you. Changing it constantly for each game is exactly what I would never do. I believe I found a set up that is great with most games but also know that the current settings reduce with eg horizon the details on the moon.
Edit: you did mean the picture settings on the TV right and not the individual settings for the games (most of the time they only offer simple brightness changes, AC Origins being an exception)
From what I understood from Dolby Vision (besides a peak that goes to the 10 000 nits for future proof or something) is that it ensures that the image you get on you BluRay 4K or VOD movie is exactly how they frame and colour it for Cinema. Artist vision stays intact. Something along those lines.
Digital Foundry was very impressed with GT Sport's HDR, seems to be one of the best HDR games yet and it does look amazing from what I've seen, so that would be a great one to check out.
Ah that explains it, Yeah its the detail in the forset and night time stuff that impresses me, especially when flying around.
What a great thread! Since getting a new TV a couple months back I've been obsessively toggling on and off the HDR settings in games to see the difference. And while some games looked better with HDR on, the difference wasn't all that notable, and in the case of Origins, the colors looked really washed out.
Well, thanks to this thread, I turned the in-game brightness way down and now it looks spectacular. So thank you. Never realized that was so important.
Well, thanks to this thread, I turned the in-game brightness way down and now it looks spectacular. So thank you. Never realized that was so important.
Great post OP. From my personal exp, Gears has the most impressive HDR implementation ive seen on the X. (It also helps that it has an option to put HDR and SDR side by side for comparison.) For some reason Gears is the only game where the black output hasnt looked weird on my Samsung TV. In Tomb Raider, dark caves had a sort of banding / weird look when it was pitch black.
Fantastic thread, very informative. Thank you!
I've been wondering this too. Right now, it seems to be a big effort even for professional devs to implement HDR on PC, but I wonder if one day there will be HDR patches for popular older games (provided they use an internal HDR rendering pipeline, of course).
I've been wondering this too. Right now, it seems to be a big effort even for professional devs to implement HDR on PC, but I wonder if one day there will be HDR patches for popular older games (provided they use an internal HDR rendering pipeline, of course).
I notice a pretty large difference (for the better) in HDR-enabled games with my x800d. I know the peak brightness isn't great so I'm hoping this isn't some weird placebo effect.
I think that's how most people understand it, but it's not just about what happens above the Tv's capabilities, it's what happens on the way to it.
This graphy below shows the measured outputs from an OLED TV, the yellow line represents the standard for HDR and the grey line represents what the tv is actually outputting.
What you see here is that as the TV approaches it's highest values, it actually starts to deviate away from the standard, tone mapping the image with a curve into that 700nit area , it does this to ensure that there is no sudden steps in the colours of brightness.
Another TV may tone map differently
Here is a samsung LCD
This one here behaves differenty, it starts of meeting the standard, then when it gets to 300 nits, everything becomes much brighter, this keeps going all the way up to it's max 1400 at which point it just hard clips.
This is an example when the TV is being fed 1000nit metadata.
It may well be that TVs also tone map differently depending on the metadata, I mean that is what it is there for.
Wasn't the whole point of the OLED's HDR game mode that LG controversially introduced that the TV would tone map the entire range into its ~650 nit output range? Hence everything looking darker afterwards?
When I use HDR game mode on youtube videos I can see the difference between 1000 nits and 4000 nits. But not in HDR standard.
Just want to say, that was a hell of an OP. Effort appreciated.
I'm still debating when to move to HDR. I've liked what I've seen on display TVs, but not upgrading my TV for a while, so the first opportunity will be a planned PC monitor upgrade. Very few sets with HDR, and even fewer that have other specs I was aiming for. Will just have to keep price watching and see if one of the better models drops into my price range.
I'm still debating when to move to HDR. I've liked what I've seen on display TVs, but not upgrading my TV for a while, so the first opportunity will be a planned PC monitor upgrade. Very few sets with HDR, and even fewer that have other specs I was aiming for. Will just have to keep price watching and see if one of the better models drops into my price range.
I think Dolby vision allows tweaking per scene while hdr 10 doesn't, I might be wrong though.
Re-Shade does something with HDR, been using it with ESO and got pretty good results.
Base ESO is washed out and muddied, but using Re-Shade let's you add colour.
When done with taste, it can be pretty awesome looking.
Last update made everything too sharp in my Re-Shade profile, I need to adjust everything again.
Congrats EvilBoris for making this topic, as HDR is quite fresh and not only consumers, but even producers might not know exactly what they're doing.
Excellent way to quantify and measure too, as the results are easily readable and make sense.
Hopefully the tests are not a pain for you to run :)
I think that this kind of HDR analysis would be a great contribution to video games analyses like digital foundry / NX gamer / VG tech / candyland / etc
Maybe you should contact @grandmaster or Dark1x for starters
Thanks for the informative thread
Excellent way to quantify and measure too, as the results are easily readable and make sense.
Hopefully the tests are not a pain for you to run :)
I think that this kind of HDR analysis would be a great contribution to video games analyses like digital foundry / NX gamer / VG tech / candyland / etc
Maybe you should contact @grandmaster or Dark1x for starters
Thanks for the informative thread
