Hearthstone: Rastakhan's Rumble |OT| Let's Get Ready To Rumble Mon

Oct 25, 2017
1,775
yeah I don't mind these changes at all, ideally they should just remove all of them from the format but priest needed some change. Mindblast priest and clone priest are both absurd. That's all I have been playing and there is really not much you can do with certain decks against them. It's dumb AF and limits what archetype you can play. I think at least mind blast has to be get destoyed just like these other cards. It's so easy to have 3+ MBs right now by turn 8-9, you don't even need anduin these days. Then clone priest has no reak counterplay unless they beat themselves. This is not how you make a good game. Removing cards like cold blood hugely helps priest and not others.
The deck archetype dies with rotation, but I agree. It certainly meets the standard for nerfs based on these other cards.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,710
Kibler just made a very good point, they nerfed equality so hard because they didn't want to give baku such a huge tool for odd pally.

then again, genn/baku demonstrate why they are problematic in their designs.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,985
all these other decks die with rotation as well yet they nerfed them. Clone gallery into malygos, velen and mindblast will still be a thing.
 
Nov 3, 2017
824
I am so angry at these nerfs, move the fucking set to wild if it is so much problem with the game, but stop nerfing each class card to the ground.

Why is this team so incapable of doing actual real work on this game???
Just imagine, instead of nerfing staple cards into uselessness, Blizzard was rotating those same cards BACK into the Standard pool after rotating them out a couple years ago to make room for new cards. We'd all be so excited because Cold Blood is BACK, baby, imagine what we could do with it and the current meta.

The Hearthstone team must eventually learn that a card game cannot have an evergreen set of powerful cards that are always standard legal. Doing so requires nerfing or banning those cards piecemeal, because otherwise getting them out of decks only happens by printing even more powerful cards, and then it's a power creep death spiral where 1 mana 2/2s aren't good enough unless they battlecry a token or deathrattle cantrip.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,775
all these other decks die with rotation as well yet they nerfed them. Clone gallery into malygos, velen and mindblast will still be a thing.
No way to reduce the cost of the spell or to generate coins, though.

But I'm with you. Mind Blast is a shitty card that is only useful as part of some gross combo play.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,710
The most egregious one for me is equality, why that nerf? control palladin was barely valid archetype and the OTK decks are not that amazing to win with.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,829
The most egregious one for me is equality, why that nerf? control palladin was barely valid archetype and the OTK decks are not that amazing to win with.
Maybe because pyro is also evergreen so that means pally always has a 4 mana board wipe.

But yeah...when I started playing HS when it first started pally for the longest time was my favorite class, mostly for the midrange or control shells. It’s been so flood focused for so long now that outside of the otk deck seeing them kill one of their good control tools really hurts.
 
I was already pretty much breaking up with Hearthstone over the last months, this gives me the final kick out the door. Now see what they'll do to slam the door shut. But these nerfs are one more reminder that Hearthstone won't suddenly become a game I want to play again because Blizzard lacks either a clear direction or the will to follow through on what they really want to do.
 
I wonder what the game would look like if the basic set just suddenly wasn't standard. I know some of the Shaman decks that Kibler has tried barely run any basic cards but I think most successful decks are running quite a few. I'm thinking of Kibler's Dragon/Elemental/Evolve decks btw.

EDIT: I'm thinking classic and basic actually.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,710
The card is strong af. I am only surprised it took them this long.
a nerf should be justified more than just "its a strong card" because going by that reason we would not have a whole lot of other cards, the reason should be that they are powerful and also in a very dominant deck.

This time they are justifying it by saying the card goes into 100% of pally decks which I really disagree, but also has the flaw that by that readon just rotate the set because many of those cards are used predominantly in many decks.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,620
a nerf should be justified more than just "its a strong card" because going by that reason we would not have a whole lot of other cards, the reason should be that they are powerful and also in a very dominant deck.

This time they are justifying it by saying the card goes into 100% of pally decks which I really disagree, but also has the flaw that by that readon just rotate the set because many of those cards are used predominantly in many decks.
It has been present in very dominant decks. Aside from that, it's in the classic/evergreen set. They also did not say it's in every deck. Saying it's auto-include doesn't literally mean it's automatically included in every list possible, especially when there are deck building restrictions on some decks.

"We’re changing these particular cards because each one has been highly prevalent, regardless of what strategies have been popular or what other cards have existed around them. When Basic and Classic cards become this ubiquitous, they take away some of the flexibility players have when building decks, ultimately stifling the diversity of decks we see when playing Hearthstone.

The following changes are intended to shift these cards from general-purpose “auto-includes” into options that are more likely to be chosen for decks that are focused on strategies that capitalize on what these cards have to offer."

I don't even care what their explanation is TBH, but they're right in saying equality is auto-include status for most lists and that even includes midrange for most metas where midrange was strong. I think equality had it a long time coming, and I say this as someone who has like 2k paladin wins.
 
I blame Iksar. He's been the most vocal against evergreen cards since the days when you would rally against Keeper of the Grove, Ancient of Lore and Swipe in Druid. Now that he's been promoted he won't rest until Basic/Classic cards make up no more than 3,4% of any given deck!
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,068
I don't understand nerfing spellstone this close to rotation...
2 months isn't exactly a short amount of time to be putting up with bullshit.
Granted, I honestly don't mind Hunter at all, but it will be nice to see less of them since I'll likely play the class more. Been championing even hunter for a long time, so the nerf kinda benefits me.

So.... what the fuck does shaman play now? Dead class until the new expansion?
 
Jan 12, 2018
2,116
Damn, Cold Blood won me games yesterday. lol Push this as fast as I can next season...

I'm relatively new to HS (started during Witchwood and fell off a bit for Booms) and CCGs generally, but why nerf at all? Just power creep new expansions until no one wants to play the Classic set. Or make cards that are similar to the Classic, but balanced for the current state of the game.

I have noticed that cards get nerfed, the community complains, and then with a new rotation we start to see those cards get played. CtA, anyone?
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,867
What the actual fuck at Flametongue Totem being nerfed.

Frankly, none of these nerfs needed to happen. Even Spellstone, bullshit as it is.

yeah I don't mind these changes at all, ideally they should just remove all of them from the format but priest needed some change. Mindblast priest and clone priest are both absurd. That's all I have been playing and there is really not much you can do with certain decks against them. It's dumb AF and limits what archetype you can play. I think at least mind blast has to be get destoyed just like these other cards. It's so easy to have 3+ MBs right now by turn 8-9, you don't even need anduin these days. Then clone priest has no real counterplay unless they beat themselves. This is not how you make a good game. Removing cards like cold blood hugely helps priest and not others.
I'm sorry, but fuck that. The moment they nerf Mind Blast is the moment I peace out.
 
Oct 27, 2017
152
JUST MOVE CLASSIC TO WILD!
Honestly at this point I'm not sure why they're not doing this. I really dislike it when they nerf cards from the classic set just move to wild and leave them alone please

Edit: I mean classic Class cards specifically just move them to wild and come up with something else to mix it up. And equality nerf is pretty harsh but as long as pyro exists it will always have a place in control pally
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,068
What the actual fuck at Flametongue Totem being nerfed.

Frankly, none of these nerfs needed to happen. Even Spellstone, bullshit as it is.


I'm sorry, but fuck that. The moment they nerf Mind Blast is the moment I peace out.
Yeah I don't think Mind Blast is that bad, but Shadow Visions makes it kind of busted. I had 7 Mind Blasts in my hand the other day. GG's

I'd better get the rest of my Priest games in before the meta turns on it.
 
Straight from Iksar:

Basic is important to us because it serves as a set of cards players can use to learn about the game before they choose whether or not to make an investment of their time or money. Classic is important to us because it serves as the secondary jump-off point where you learn the baseline for what each of the individual classes is about along with some of our core mechanics like Battlecry or Deathrattle. (...) We'd like to continue making these types of changes, as we believe the game will be in a better position to meet the player expectation that the game is new and fresh from expansion to expansion.
The goal of the Classic/Basic set is no longer to provide players with a solid foundation for their collection and decks they want to build. It is simply an educational stepping-stone before you get ready to spend gold and money on expansion packs. Meeting the expectation players like me have of being able to play our favorite cards and decks forever in Wild has stopped being important, no matter that we have that expectation because it was a promise made with the introduction of Wild.
 
Oct 25, 2017
709
So, within the span of a month, they nerfed both viable Shaman decks into the ground. Guess you're going to have to settle with Tier 3/4 kitchen-sink decks, jesus.

My condolences to Equality.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,620
Straight from Iksar:



The goal of the Classic/Basic set is no longer to provide players with a solid foundation for their collection and decks they want to build. It is simply an educational stepping-stone before you get ready to spend gold and money on expansion packs. Meeting the expectation players like me have of being able to play our favorite cards and decks forever in Wild has stopped being important, no matter that we have that expectation because it was a promise made with the introduction of Wild.
They can serve multiple purposes. Classic still fills the role of filler stuff, even when the cards are not top tier.
 

Toxi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,867
Straight from Iksar:

The goal of the Classic/Basic set is no longer to provide players with a solid foundation for their collection and decks they want to build. It is simply an educational stepping-stone before you get ready to spend gold and money on expansion packs. Meeting the expectation players like me have of being able to play our favorite cards and decks forever in Wild has stopped being important, no matter that we have that expectation because it was a promise made with the introduction of Wild.
Yup. Makes me regret actually spending money on this game to make a wild deck.

At least they probably won't nerf the classic legendaries, because God forgive they actually dust refund for a legendary these days.

They can serve multiple purposes. Classic still fills the role of filler stuff, even when the cards are not top tier.
Can't wait to see the justification when the "filler stuff" also gets nerfed. The devs have already established that they will nerf good classic cards regardless of the current meta.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
3,620
Can't wait to see the justification when the "filler stuff" also gets nerfed. The devs have already established that they will nerf good classic cards regardless of the current meta.
Except all the new nerfs are on cards that are good in the current meta and would likely be very good in the upcoming rotation's meta as well. These cards have also been quite literally gold standard cards in many if not all past metas where their class saw play.
 
Aug 5, 2018
1,157
Seeing all these nerfs remind me of what Kibler has been saying since the wild format introduction, that the basic/classic collection is way too huge to be evergreen.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,713
Fine with the nerfs. Way less egregious than the last time when Giggling Inventor and Aviana were obliterated, as they're two of my favorite cards in the game.
 
Jan 12, 2018
2,116
nope, the only special bundle that could be repeated in the past was the Get In Here bundle, the rest can only be purchased once
Thanks.


He has been none too happy about these nerfs.
Re: Kibler. I watched the latest Omni/Stone and he doesn't think the nerfs themselves are bad, just the way Blizz is going about nerfing the cards. The discussion was interesting as they were arguing that the hardcore players are being held down by the (super)casual players and Blizz not wanting to eliminate cards from their decks. Which is what would happen if Classic or Basic rotated out. I think it came down to change everything now, and drive players away, or do incremental changes, piss people off, but they will stay around as the game is still relatively stable.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,775
Re: Kibler. I watched the latest Omni/Stone and he doesn't think the nerfs themselves are bad, just the way Blizz is going about nerfing the cards. The discussion was interesting as they were arguing that the hardcore players are being held down by the (super)casual players and Blizz not wanting to eliminate cards from their decks. Which is what would happen if Classic or Basic rotated out. I think it came down to change everything now, and drive players away, or do incremental changes, piss people off, but they will stay around as the game is still relatively stable.
Kibler is pretty tuned in on this aspect of game balancing. He is usually right on the money as to which specific cards create the problems, and what those problems actually are. For a long time, Blizzard wouldn't acknowledge problems because they would claim that the overall winrate with some deck was only around 50%, ignoring the reality of playing HS at a medium to high level. They've thankfully evolved past this.

The next step, though, is to find a way to shake up the Classic/Basic sets without removing them completely. I think the best solution is to do a true revision/reissue of those sets. Remove the troublesome cards, add in some new vanilla cards, and some cards from Naxx, GvG, and other older sets. And just give those cards to everyone who has unlocked the basic set. Who wouldn't be in favor of that?
 
Jan 12, 2018
2,116
Cat Party Yes, that seems reasonable, but is Team 5 big enough to do that? Or maybe delay an expansion and use that time to work on a new Basic/Classic... how much could they change class identity, though?

I hate stupid AF misplays... Buddha, please... I'd go into detail but it would just sound like bad beat tales, and I'm not paying anyone to listen to them. lol
 
Oct 27, 2017
232
The next step, though, is to find a way to shake up the Classic/Basic sets without removing them completely. I think the best solution is to do a true revision/reissue of those sets. Remove the troublesome cards, add in some new vanilla cards, and some cards from Naxx, GvG, and other older sets. And just give those cards to everyone who has unlocked the basic set. Who wouldn't be in favor of that?
I think a legendary swap would work to some extent. Malygos is a problem they seem to balance around without changing the card. Why not just make new Classic legendaries and either make people craft them or swap them 1:1 in collections.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,449
I still think Genn and Baku are ok.

I think other ways to nerf them beyond making them appear in opening hand is to manipulate your starting life total. I don't know the right number, but if you start with say 20-25hp it could be a way to balance them across the board.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,775
Let's reassess Genn and Baku after rotation, when cards that were never balanced for them will be gone. A lot of irreplaceable stuff is leaving.