When does Rey ever condemn Finn? She only begs him to stay before he takes off with the aliens in Maz' castle.
It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure that Rey gets at least noticeably angry at Finn for wanting to leave. But regardless of how intense she gets, it's still strange that she would even beg him to help the Resistance, when her character is supposed to be married to the idea of waiting for her family.
That moment she touches the saber literally gets her captured by the FO. Had she never run off she wouldn't be alone in the woods or got abducted by Kylo (therefore almost delivered to Snoke himself).
And that failure is good, it just doesn't last long. In fact, it doesn't last long in two very critical ways. One, she almost immediately escapes using powers she didn't originally have and just magically learns, so there's very little narrative tension to draw from that mistake, but more importantly, her desire to return to her family is almost immediately forgotten. This flaw of hers doesn't loom over her, nor does it compel and character development. Rey never has to learn anything about herself to better accept the situation with her family, until
TLJ where she's told her family is lame and dead, and she basically just says "yeah, I guess I always knew that." If this family thing is actually a flaw of hers, I her to struggle with it constantly.
TFA is very clearly filmed to show that Rey initially fails to resist Kylo's mind probe. She gives him almost everything he wants, aside from the vision of the map.
Wait, so everything except the stuff that's relevant to the plot? This particular scene isn't a huge sticking point, but everyone always mentions little scenes like these when I say that Rey never fails, and it's annoying. Rey gets mind-probed, but not only does she immediately turn that very scene to her favor, it's clear she never actually "lost" anything of great importance either. It's a big deal when the Empire tracks the Falcon to Yavin IV because the audience aware of the immediate impact this will have on the plot. Nothing nearly as plot-relevant or exciting gets sucked out of Rey's mind.
Then she slowly realizes that she has the power to not only resist him, but use his power against him. Again, her ability to adapt to survive fits in with her character in ways that it simply doesn't for Luke or Anakin, early on in their journeys.
I feel like I've said this scores already, but it might not have been to you, but I don't care if it makes sense because of general traits and space magic. It is a problem when your protagonist never encounters a problem that forces her to changer herself in order to progress.I like characters who are well-defined and encounter problems that they aren't suddenly equipped to deal with. That creates engaging drama.
However, in this instance, it doesn't really make sense. How does nebulously "being a survivor" help with a force mind probe? All you can give me are general answers like "well, she's strong-willed and had to survive on her own," but how does that translate directly into being able to redirect a mind-reading attack and then translate that into the ability to control minds. Like, if I shot her in the face, should she be able to adapt to that? Clearly not. It just seems that many people are willing to chalk up anything anything short of getting shot in the face to "being an adaptable survivor." At some point it
has to strain the reality of the film when she's "adapting" immediately to every problem she encounters. It certainly has to diffuse the tension too.
Well, not every single survivor has to be the same person, but they all have similar characteristics in that they learn how to adapt and survive in their environments. Rey repesents the good, like Luke. Just because you're simply a survivor doesn't mean you have to have X Y and Y for your all of your personality traits.
It doesn't mean you
have to be anyone. I said as much. However, it strains reality when we see a character with a certain backstory not appear to have gained any specific traits from that backstory. How could a bleeding heart like her live on her own for all those years without acquiring any selfish, backstabbing, instinctual, or otherwise negative traits? What's nice too, is that those are interesting traits worth exploring in a film, especially one where this person has to become the hero.
Of course, again, I could ignore this if her altruistic character is engaging throughout the films. It just isn't
The force awakens inside of her, and she's on team good guys.
This, actually typifies her poor character development more than you think. The force awakens, she's team good guy, and that's it. No more questions. She's just a good guy.
Her morality, much like many of her talents, isn't shown to
come from anywhere. She's just as good as she needs to be precisely when the movie needs her to be, and I mean good in both senses. She's just extraordinarily talented at things right off the bat, and she never seems grapple with the meaning of "good." If anything, she's the sole beacon of unwavering goodness that spurs Luke's character development in
TLJ. In that regard, I'd actually like Rey's character. If she wasn't actually the protagonist, but rather a plot device–the perfect unwavering good to the Emperor's perfect unwavering evil–and another, more flawed, protagonist had to struggle with her perfection, then I'd be fine. But as it is, Rey just "gets it," always, and there's never any room for doubt, thus there's never any dramatic tension with her character.
That's why she's optimistic. We also see this optimism in her unwavering determination to wait for her family to return.
She quite clearly wavers when she excitedly leaves Jaaku, eager to join the Resistance.
Again, she's strong in the light side of the force. TFA and TLJ are evidence of this, and even outright tell the audience through either visual or verbal storytelling.
Look, I'm well aware that she's strong in the light side of the force, but that manifests in the narrative as a distinct lack of character development. Yes, the films are incredibly blatant about her abilities and altruism, but again, this leaves us with a character who doesn't have to struggle with anything, least of all herself. She just floats through the movie being capable of everything that she needs to be at the moment and succeeding every moral conundrum presented to her.
Again, as I said, she sides with BB-8 because she's a light side force user, and because she immediately identifies with his struggle. This is good storytelling. This is also given to the audience when she asks him "where do you come from"; we can use our inferential skills to realize "wow, he's just like she is.. BB-8 also is lost and wants to return to the people who care about him!", via this scene and others.
Yes, that little tidbit is good storytelling, and something that just about every vagrant hero character does. The hero stumbles upon (possibly downtrodden) sidekick, says something that establishes both of their orphaned or lost status, and we all collectively say "aww" to the newfound relationship between two misfits. This is storytelling 101. Unfortunately, whoever wrote the movie didn't stick around for the rest of the class, because when it comes to progressing this character in an arc.
You know what would be interesting? A story where she, a survivor,
didn't save BB-8 almost immediately, but had to struggle with her instinctual desire to keep to herself and survive. Hell, I'd be more interested in a film where she didn't save BB-8 at all, but still decided to help the Resistance our of regret for her selfishness and unwillingness to help an innocent droid.
Did you happen to see the climax of TFA? She loses the only father figure she's ever known. Han is the closest to her life goal she's ever been.. to find her family. He gives her, in part, the belonging she seeks. Then guess what? Kylo says "fuck all that, I'm killing the past, I'm letting go of the light (even though this doesn't work). I'm murdering daddy". Rey is crushed.
Yes, Rey reacts, but she doesn't develop. You say that Han's death is crushing, and sure, we get a nice reaction shot from Ridley, but what effect does this have on her? Does she dip into the dark side? Does her insane abilities start to get scary? Does she become dejected? Lose faith, a little? No, she just acts as normal as she always would, and beats Kylo in a sword fight like any good, level-headed Jedi would. Again,
no development. If family is such a big deal to her, then I need to see how gaining a father figure and quickly losing him affects her psyche.
much more so than even Luke in ANH with Obi. Why? Because for Rey, Han filled that void.. gave her more purpose than simply waiting around on Jakku. Kylo destroyed that for her. This feeds into her character development in TLJ. At one point in the film, she says "I'd never felt so alone"; she's continually searching for the belonging that Han gave her, in the form of her real parents.
She says that once, but I don't really believe that. For such a lonely, desperate character, she never does anything that's especially lonely or desperate. She barely even keeps looking for her. Even when she has the vision that promises her answers only to deny her anything, she doesn't seem all that phased. This flaw never seems to manifest in emotional struggle.
Kylo even tells the audience this, just in case you missed it. "It's your greatest weakness.. looking for them everywhere, in Han Solo, now Skywalker". Then, because of her naive hope and need to belong, she confides in Ben, after he tells her what happened between him and Luke. Her weakness almost allows her to be killed by Snoke and Kylo, and she ultimately fails to turn him to the light. Because of her weaknesses and flaws.
You say "her weakness," but what weakness other than "general weakness" are you talking about, because no specific weakness makes her weak to Snoke; he's just the big bad. There's nothing to her character (like Luke's impatience in
Empire) which makes her fail to resist his power. Same with Kylo; it's not
her flaws that prevent her from turning him. Kylo just has another movie to develop. It's not a character flaw that she's incapable of righting
every single wrong present in the movie; that's just expected.
Despite being practically a toy to Snoke however, Rey is still incredibly strong-willed. Even after tortured, she's entirely resolute.
That is the more important than any slight physical setback, and Rey just has this figured out from the start.
Just like Luke almost failed in ESB by being captured by Vader, but miraculously escapes.
Don't try to reframe that. Luke fucks up
big time in
Empire. No, he isn't captured (frankly, Vader seemed more intent to convert Luke than to hand him over), but he loses a limb, gets his psyche destroyed by his father, and loses the chance to complete his training. This has big implications on his character going forward. And yeah, he miraculously escapes, but unlike Rey who miraculously succeeds against her problems, Luke only miraculously doesn't die. There's a significant difference there.
We also see Rey get knocked the fuck out, and as a result, Finn almost dies. None of this would have happened if she wouldn't have gotten freaked out by her destiny and ran off, and would have eventually found a way to get back to Jakku to return to waiting for nothing.
So she never really fails that much. That's a lot of what are just setbacks and almosts, not failures.
Look, I harp on this failure thing not because I need a specific kind of failure, but because this kind of failure guarantees character development. I want Rey to change her mind about things or brood over her limitations or meditate on her horrifying power.
You can still effectively utilize the force but develop as a character in other areas. TLJ is all about failure, and Rey's weaknesses causes her two personal failures.. her inability to bring Luke back to Leia, and inability to turn Kylo back to the light.
But within the context of that very film, those aren't failures. Rey
still believed in Luke and
still believed in Kylo. There was never any doubt there. The only reason she leaves Luke is because she's too altruistic to leave her friends alone. In Luke's case, her perfect goodness helps her succeed on an ever greater level than she was even attempting. She doesn't get Luke to come back with her, she gets him to reconnect with the force in a way that he never had and then save the Resistance.
Again, she saves the resistance in that moment by moving rocks, but her main failure was her inability to bring Kylo back to the light. I personally would have liked to see her struggle more with her feelings of loneliness and hatred for Kylo (that was my headcanon before I saw TLJ), but that is separate from her being overpowered in the force.
But it totally isn't. Part of this issue with her being so overpowered is that she suffers none of the emotional problems endemic to overpowered force users. Look, the prequels are hot trash, but at least I can understand, in theory, Anakin's struggle being space Jesus. If he wasn't so insufferable, that plot would've worked far better. Rey has the opposite problem; she's likable, but doesn't have a distinct enough arc to be engaging for two several hour movies.
I don't think you automatically need to use overconfidence as a weakness for Rey. There are far more interesting avenues to explore that make more sense for her character, like finding her place in both the galaxy and inside of herself. Coming to terms with letting the past go.. untethering herself from Jakku and her need to find her parents. They could have gone much further to drive this point home, IMO, and that is one of my criticisms of TLJ, but again, this doesn't have anything to do with her being a Mary Sue (spoiler: she's not).
Again, the film doesn't
need to characterize her any specific way, but should characterize her in
some way. "Finding your place in the galaxy and herself" isn't a good arc because that's generally what every hero's journey is about, and it's about that as a result of their other character development. Letting the past go would be a good one if the films ever showed her constantly failing because she can't let the past go. To reiterate, she only fails once because of that and only very shortly and she doesn't have to reframe her stance on the past in order to resolve that conflict. In contrast, Kylo Ren has very visible problems with his past which he actively has to struggle with throughout both films (
TLJ just kinda repeats the same arc as the first unfortunately...) and only succeeds by developing his emotions on the matter.
I don't care what word you call it, Mary Sue or not, I think she faces nearly enough problems that she can't overcome without altering her morality. Not once in either films has Rey had to question herself to achieve victory. She just stick to her guns, and it works out, usually better than she ever expected.
There's still more story to tell in EP9. After the timeskip, she will have read the books and will probably return with a new understanding of what the Jedi are supposed to be, and how she will continue and evolve what Luke originally started, post ROTJ
I would love it if she gained any character development in the next film. It would've been nice in the first two parts of the trilogy but better late than never.
