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Here Is an Great Clip Of Streamer Destiny Explaining how Edgy Jokes & Memes Can have Bad Outcomes & normalizes racism/bigotry
- Thread starter IceFireTerry
- Start date
If we go by what he says in his debates i think that Destiny's worst stance is actually on animal rights. But, in the end, I think he's just about winning debates and you cannot take what he says as proof of anything.
Although I also had my doubts at first, I don't think he is racist or bigoted. He's just an edgelord and a troll that likes to make fun of shit and that would include probably making the occasional politically incorrect joke.
I guess there might be some people that would NEVER make an insensitive joke because it's the worst thing ever. And then, on the other hand, there are people that probably tell the most disgusting racist jokes all the time because they are actual bigots, nazis, etc.
In between you have a whooooole spectrum of people that will say the occasional shit joke because whatever. And this can of course be people from any race, gender, nationality... you name it.
Of course not all collectives susceptible of being joke targets are the same and so it's not the same to make a joke about Republicans than about a subjugated minority and one should definitely know there are things one should never joke about. But, again, I think this is another spectrum where jokes can go from "ok, go ahead, have a laugh" to outright horrible.
So, where do we draw the line? Are the only true leftist people the ones that would never make an insensitive joke? Has anybody here never made a cruel joke about somebody? Or at least have one cross their mind, laughed about it internally and thought "shit, brain, how do you come up with this shit, we're going to hell, stfu"?
We're all prejudiced in some way and at some level, whether you want to see it or not, and, at the end of the day, what counts are the actions that back up your true beliefs: who you vote for, who you admire, what you imagine when you think of a better world, etc.
I think that, without knowing what kind of jokes Destiny is actually talking about we cannot truly say one way or the other. But, going by the points of view that he defends, the friendships he has, etc. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this matter and I really think that people trying to push the idea that he's a closet racist that should be shunned by us "the true leftists" is ridiculous.
Although I also had my doubts at first, I don't think he is racist or bigoted. He's just an edgelord and a troll that likes to make fun of shit and that would include probably making the occasional politically incorrect joke.
I guess there might be some people that would NEVER make an insensitive joke because it's the worst thing ever. And then, on the other hand, there are people that probably tell the most disgusting racist jokes all the time because they are actual bigots, nazis, etc.
In between you have a whooooole spectrum of people that will say the occasional shit joke because whatever. And this can of course be people from any race, gender, nationality... you name it.
Of course not all collectives susceptible of being joke targets are the same and so it's not the same to make a joke about Republicans than about a subjugated minority and one should definitely know there are things one should never joke about. But, again, I think this is another spectrum where jokes can go from "ok, go ahead, have a laugh" to outright horrible.
So, where do we draw the line? Are the only true leftist people the ones that would never make an insensitive joke? Has anybody here never made a cruel joke about somebody? Or at least have one cross their mind, laughed about it internally and thought "shit, brain, how do you come up with this shit, we're going to hell, stfu"?
We're all prejudiced in some way and at some level, whether you want to see it or not, and, at the end of the day, what counts are the actions that back up your true beliefs: who you vote for, who you admire, what you imagine when you think of a better world, etc.
I think that, without knowing what kind of jokes Destiny is actually talking about we cannot truly say one way or the other. But, going by the points of view that he defends, the friendships he has, etc. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this matter and I really think that people trying to push the idea that he's a closet racist that should be shunned by us "the true leftists" is ridiculous.
dunno, this reminds me of when someone said a person couldn't be left if they didn't actively have hatred in their heart for Tulsi Gabbard
Why can't you just answer the question?
The reason why most people don't care when you say cracker is because white people are in a position of privilege, it doesn't negatively affect them in a way that every other racial, gendered, sexual preference type insult does. It wouldn't appear to disenfranchise them in any way.
The point is that when you say racist things towards minorities in public, the reason they are harmful is because they are already often disenfranchised in some way. By making jokes about a minorities race, it can normalize that language and lead to further acts of racism and lead them to be further disenfranchised.
So while personally it's not something I could bring myself to do, I think Destiny sees saying racist jokes in private with non-racist friends as being similar to making white jokes in public.
Destiny is concerned about the effects that words have on other people.
in private still leaks. the fact that he says he does it in private endorses bigoted behavior in private. that behavior, like almost everything else, seeks company. no one sits at home and is privately bigoted. those people do not exist.
you are still bigoted even if you do it privately with non-bigot friends.
Meanwhile, the explanation he gave of why it's okay for someone to use slurs against vulnerable minority groups was never private.
The impact would be the white person joins the choir of all the other white people crying about minorities being the "real racists".
I never knew there were so many people here who have very strong opinions about Destiny and clearly know fuck all about him.
Subpar Spatula embarrasses me as a lefty.
Subpar Spatula embarrasses me as a lefty.
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Wow. Can't believe David Pakman would endorse this bigot.
Pakman is cancelled
Piker is cancelled
Contrapoints is cancelled
H.Bomberguy is cancelled
#TrueLeft #SayNoToBigots
So is this thread now just advertising the streams of a era poster who was permanently banned for attempting to legitimize being a bigot as long as it's in 'quiet company'?
It reinforces my opinion that nuance, *especially* in the left, is dead. Everything is black or white, gray areas don't exist.
Sure, as long as it's not banned sitewide like Laymen Gaming is, what's the problem? He's a left leaning political commentator before he is an Era poster, and his debates are important for left wing agenda.
James Gunn discussion is fair game, so why not this?
I mod for Hasan, which doesn't mean anything except that I see a lot. There are constantly new people saying that he turned them from the right to the left, and he's maybe not even as good at that as Destiny,
Destiny, Hasan, Trihex, and others are able to make real changes among hundreds or thousands of people because they actually wade into these dudebro communities and debate ideas. They wouldn't be half as successful if they were blind to nuance and purity tested Trainwrecks, Slikker, etc. and shunned them. Fuck, even Slikker is starting to come around to the error of his ways and how he thinks about women, because of them.
When you say "oh, he's willing to talk to them because he's secretly a bigot" the truth is that he is using that relationship to platform his own ideas. He says it himself.
Era is a bubble. And I like that because I can't stand to entertain anything from the right when it comes to games. But that way is only going to make this a comfortable little corner of the internet for us. It isn't going to make an on impact the outside world.
Destiny, Hasan, Trihex, and others are able to make real changes among hundreds or thousands of people because they actually wade into these dudebro communities and debate ideas. They wouldn't be half as successful if they were blind to nuance and purity tested Trainwrecks, Slikker, etc. and shunned them. Fuck, even Slikker is starting to come around to the error of his ways and how he thinks about women, because of them.
When you say "oh, he's willing to talk to them because he's secretly a bigot" the truth is that he is using that relationship to platform his own ideas. He says it himself.
Era is a bubble. And I like that because I can't stand to entertain anything from the right when it comes to games. But that way is only going to make this a comfortable little corner of the internet for us. It isn't going to make an on impact the outside world.
Their discussion is about responsible platforming and toxic audiences. Kind of like this thread. But OK.
Extremely well said. Thank you.
The left not having nuance is definitely a thing I feel like happens a lot on these forums. Like there's a huge spectrum between nazi shitbag and whatever your ideal left is. And I feel like too often if you're not at exactly that ideal left you get told to just fuck off and do your homework. Like yes, some people are just trolls and yes sometimes we're too tired to deal with lazy people. It's still not helpful for the ones genuinely trying to learn though.
Destiny, from what I've seen is very utilitarian greatest amount of good for the greatest whole kinda deal, even if some small amount may be hurt in the process. Which is why he tries to not use racial slurs in public because he recognizes the harm that can cause as an influencer. I'd disagree in that he thinks it's okay to use it privately because, sure, he assumes his friends are not bigoted and won't go off and use the slurs unironically, but I do think it still has a ripple effect from that, which is why I don't think if he actually thinks about it he can actually continue to hold that position. As far as I understand, even his discord has banned such words because of the same he can't know who's using them unironically and he doesn't want to make it seem like it's okay. At least to his credit, and you can see this from the years of videos on Youtube, he has been gradually changing his position on this, and has stopped using ableist slurs as well.
Which is why his posting spoilers IMO is such an idiotic/hypocritical thing because it *does* cause psychological harm to those who feel it is a harm to them even if he personally doesn't think it's harmful. Especially since there's a clip of him seeing the original joke, *realizing* it's a huge spoiler, saying he shouldn't tweet it, and then tweets it.
Destiny, from what I've seen is very utilitarian greatest amount of good for the greatest whole kinda deal, even if some small amount may be hurt in the process. Which is why he tries to not use racial slurs in public because he recognizes the harm that can cause as an influencer. I'd disagree in that he thinks it's okay to use it privately because, sure, he assumes his friends are not bigoted and won't go off and use the slurs unironically, but I do think it still has a ripple effect from that, which is why I don't think if he actually thinks about it he can actually continue to hold that position. As far as I understand, even his discord has banned such words because of the same he can't know who's using them unironically and he doesn't want to make it seem like it's okay. At least to his credit, and you can see this from the years of videos on Youtube, he has been gradually changing his position on this, and has stopped using ableist slurs as well.
Which is why his posting spoilers IMO is such an idiotic/hypocritical thing because it *does* cause psychological harm to those who feel it is a harm to them even if he personally doesn't think it's harmful. Especially since there's a clip of him seeing the original joke, *realizing* it's a huge spoiler, saying he shouldn't tweet it, and then tweets it.
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These streams where mediocre White people talk to other mediocre White people about what's offensive, what's a joke, the Jewish question, etc, without a single minority in the room to speak their viewpoints... I don't really see the point of engaging this type of content.
Even if Destiny is right, it's pointless because it's just a bunch of privileged folk taking turns navel-gazing. No minds are changed, no idea is really challenged, and there's no one that can speak from the actual viewpoint of an oppressed person.
Even if Destiny is right, it's pointless because it's just a bunch of privileged folk taking turns navel-gazing. No minds are changed, no idea is really challenged, and there's no one that can speak from the actual viewpoint of an oppressed person.
'You're white therefore can't push back against alt-righters and spread leftist ideas' is a new (and utterly ludicrous) one on me.
Also, minds are changed and ideas are challenged, so...
I mean, I get it. Saying things like "faggot" and "retard" behind closed doors isn't harmless. People still take meaning away from that, no matter if "they aren't bigoted" or whatever Destiny's excuses are.
That being said, it's disappointing to see people just write the dude off. Dunking on alt-right people has a positive effect, no matter the shit he says behind closed doors.
Is this a principled thing? Can we not say "hey Destiny, saying that shit isn't cool" and also "good work telling Lauren Southern she's wrong"?
Watching it now but Pakman brings up what I think is an interesting point. He talks about how there are people who want to suppress reasonable conversation. He points out that he's not talking about conversations with reasonable people, but rather conversations where someones argument is going to be challenged in a reasonable way. An example of this that he gave is that when he had a debate with Richard Spencer there were people on the left that told him that it was a bad idea to even give him airtime. But then a few weeks after the debate he did a Youtube search and found that CNN and RT had brought him on and interviewed him and it was all rather milquetoast where they didn't challenge his ideas. So he asks is the problem that he's getting airtime or that he's getting airtime and not being challenged?
Destiny points out that a good example of how this goes wrong is the election. He brings up how often left leaning outlets would just play some clip of Trump saying some dumb shit and not really refute it. Rather it was more about laughing at him for being such an idiot. Then the election rolled around and people realized that they should've spent less time laughing at him (remember the infamous Keith Ellison clip?) and more time actually stomping his ideas into the ground, no matter how dumb they were. He also brings up Trump's slogan and how Hillary's campaign tried to counter it by saying, 'America's already great'. It was an idiotic counter to the messaging in the first place because there are so many damn problems in the US anyway. It's not great and has never actually been great. So address it rather than pushing a saying that you don't even believe is true.
Yep, irresponsible platforming is bad, and effectively what our mainstream news networks do. Responsible platforming seems to only really exist on Youtube at the moment though, but even so, sometimes it just devolves into yelling matches when the opponent realizes it. And of course there's incredibly irresponsible platforming on Youtube as well.
Well, 100% agree on all of that. TV news outlets are awful, also in my home country.
I think his point was that he stopped using them in public because he came to realise people who didn't know him personally thought he was bigoted, when really he was just lazy and insensitive with his language. That's still a shitty view that I'm not condoning, but it is progress compared to being a libertarian edgelord.
Also, he's not really woke in any sense. The best you can say about Destiny is that he's a soft-left social democrat who is at least pretty solid when it comes to anti-fascism and calling out the alt-righters he encounters on Twitch.
So, while it's fair that he'd be banned from here, it is still good that he's not gone down the alt-right rabbit hole and taken his audience with him.
I haven't watched the video but I did see one where he said that having another referendum over Brexit would be undemocratic and I kinda sighed on turned it off.
Having a public vote over Brexit now considering the deep shit we are in is much needed.
Having a public vote over Brexit now considering the deep shit we are in is much needed.
The way Destiny uses his knowledge and skills in debates is what we need more on the left tbh.
Him being an edge lord in private won't change my mind.
Dude does a ton of good.
Him being an edge lord in private won't change my mind.
Dude does a ton of good.
This was a great talk and now I'm really looking forward to that twitch debate they have agreed on having.
White people having conversations with other white people realizing their racism or prejudice and trying to help or pull others out the hole is good.
Minorities don't need to carry the burden of un-racism-ing white people solo.
Yeah, I think as far as people on the left go, he's probably at the front of actually being able to bring people over. Pakman asked him in the video what is the benefit of doing the internet bloodbath debates, the ones where you've got 5 or so people arguing over the course of several hours. And Destiny said that he's found that there are some people out there that actually admire someone who's willing to go into the trenches and hold their own against those people. And as far as changing peoples minds with those style of debates, he said that he finds that it's a 40-40-20 situation. Where you've got some people who're dug into their positions on both sides and won't give a shit if the person they're there to listen to makes a fool of themselves or not because they aren't changing their minds. But then he points out that he'll go to channels of the people he debated and scroll down their comment section for that debate and find that many of the top upvoted comments are dumping on him, but then as you go you start to find other upvoted comments who're saying stuff like, 'I normally enjoy your content, but you really didn't come across well in this debate'. And that's how you slowly start to get them to come over.
To some extent you could compare what he's doing as far as going into he lion's den to what Bernie did when he went onto Fox News for that town hall. Some praised the DNC when they announced that they wouldn't allow Fox News to host Democratic debates because they're basically a mouthpiece of the WH. Since then a number of Democratic presidential candidates have done town hall's for the likes of MSNBC and CNN. But the one that seemed to garner the most attention is the one that Bernie did on Fox News. And that in particular is because of the moment where one of the hosts asked people to raise their hand if they're in favor of Medicare for All, and to the horror of the hosts almost everyone raised their hand. The reception Bernie got there pissed Trump off and he ranted about it on Twitter. What Bernie was able to do by going on Fox News was actually explain to people what Medicare for All really as well as what his views really are, so for the first time many FN viewers got to see something that actually makes a lot of sense rather than the intentionally insane descriptions that FN hosts give of those views. Sure most of the viewers are going to hate and handwave away what he's said, but what about those that he actually connects with? So long as your views are solid you don't really stand to lose anything in the situation.
I was first made aware of Destiny's existence when Leftube started mentioning Faraday Speaks's "My descent into the Alt-Right" video. I watched that video, and Faraday Speaks's conversation with NonCompete after that. The fact that he repeatedly talked about Destiny and Contrapoints in the same breath, saying they're gateways to deradicalization made me curious, so I started watching some of Destiny's videos. Over the past few weeks I've watched a crapton of his videos - heck, I'm watching one right now -, and yeah, he's pretty good. Some of his takes are a bit weird, but he does some good work, and I'll always be favorably inclined towards people who genuinely try to become better. So many people on YouTube don't budge in their views. Or if they do, they do for the wrong reasons. He, on the other hand, constantly changes and improves rather than staying a cowardly fence-sitter who doesn't know what they're talking about. He's the anti-Boogie2988 in that sense lol.
You know that meme about Jordan Peterson where JP fans say "you're quoting him out of context, you have to watch his videos in their entirety"? In Destiny's case, I legitimately, unironically think it applies. If your exposure to Destiny basically stops at the post that got him banned on ERA (which, for the record, I think is a shame; his ban shouldn't have been permanent IMO, but I'll live with it), or some of his content from years ago, I can see why you would think he's kind of a bigot. But you don't have the complete picture. Watch any of his debates with prominent alt-righters, or his various conversations with Contrapoints, and it'll become clear that he holds mostly progressive views, and does a great job at explaining them and deconstructing a ton of alt-right talking points. Are self-interest and "facts over feelings" edginess key to his views and character? Yeah, sure, probably. But that's a tiny drop compared to the good he does. Let's not throw the baby with the bathwater here.
Also, as others have pointed out, he's way better at debating than most left-leaning figures out there. There's a lot to learn from him there. I remember watching Contrapoints's old debate with Sargon of Akkad, and I was honestly shocked at how poor her debating skills were at some point. I mean, she wasn't horrible I guess, but there was one point where I found myself agreeing with Sargon, of all people, because of how poorly she was handling the debate (don't worry, that's the one and only time I found myself agreeing with Sargon, and it lasted about 10 seconds lol; dude's a toxic idiot of the highest order). She is incredibly talented when it comes to making thoroughly-researched videos, but if you're gonna have debates, I haven't seen anyone on the left do as good of as job as Destiny yet. He's always well-prepared, articulate and quick on his feet. You could say his debating skills are... AMAZIN'!
You know that meme about Jordan Peterson where JP fans say "you're quoting him out of context, you have to watch his videos in their entirety"? In Destiny's case, I legitimately, unironically think it applies. If your exposure to Destiny basically stops at the post that got him banned on ERA (which, for the record, I think is a shame; his ban shouldn't have been permanent IMO, but I'll live with it), or some of his content from years ago, I can see why you would think he's kind of a bigot. But you don't have the complete picture. Watch any of his debates with prominent alt-righters, or his various conversations with Contrapoints, and it'll become clear that he holds mostly progressive views, and does a great job at explaining them and deconstructing a ton of alt-right talking points. Are self-interest and "facts over feelings" edginess key to his views and character? Yeah, sure, probably. But that's a tiny drop compared to the good he does. Let's not throw the baby with the bathwater here.
Also, as others have pointed out, he's way better at debating than most left-leaning figures out there. There's a lot to learn from him there. I remember watching Contrapoints's old debate with Sargon of Akkad, and I was honestly shocked at how poor her debating skills were at some point. I mean, she wasn't horrible I guess, but there was one point where I found myself agreeing with Sargon, of all people, because of how poorly she was handling the debate (don't worry, that's the one and only time I found myself agreeing with Sargon, and it lasted about 10 seconds lol; dude's a toxic idiot of the highest order). She is incredibly talented when it comes to making thoroughly-researched videos, but if you're gonna have debates, I haven't seen anyone on the left do as good of as job as Destiny yet. He's always well-prepared, articulate and quick on his feet. You could say his debating skills are... AMAZIN'!
I started watching his videos through the exact same process.
The only Destiny's stance that is 2 edgy 4 me so far is the one he holds on animal rights. He debated this vegan guy (who, by the way, was an amazing debater too) and in the end it was kind of a psychoanalysis session on Destiny's psychotic mind, really fucked up.
Haven't watched that debate between contrapoints and Sargon but I can imagine her not doing too well because I a conversation between her and destiny I already felt she was a bit of a doubtful speaker and Destiny was basically dominating the convo 100%.
Guy I'm following a lot lately is Shaun, and I think he might be the best yet at making debunking videos, the guy is pretty much flawless in the way he presents his arguments. Wonder if he would be a good debater too or not.
Shaun might be my favorite person on youtube, lol. I've watched all his videos, most more than once.
To your question, he has said that he is a bad debater, partly because he gets very nervous in those types of encounters. So he sticks to his strengths, which I think is totally fine. He's good at researching his rebuttals*, not rapid-fire conversations.
*For example, I admire him for digging through those hundreds (thousands?) of supposed immigrant crime statistics in Germany. (That's the video where he discovered that supposed immigrant arson attacks were literally things like an immigrant who had a grease fire while cooking, or who left the oven on too long, etc.
I only watched 3 videos so far but they were all spot on. The one rebutting Molineux on American native genocide was in fucking credible.
I've only watched the very beginning of that video, but yeah, it's supposed to be a ride. Maybe I'll give it a watch later. It's funny to see VeganGains crop up. A few years back I remember some videos shitting on him for being disingenuous or whatever. I think the vids were by GradeAUnderA (btw, for those of you who remember Grade, lo and behold, his comeback video a few weeks ago was about "those damn SJWs", so I instantly unsubbed, sigh).
I think they were talking about something related to political violence, and Sargon asked her a question about it. Something along the lines of "are you for or against violence". She replied that she was against because she thought it would be an ineffective way to deal with things. In my mind, I instantly responded with "it's weird that her argument is only about effectiveness, without considering the moral aspect", and sure enough, Sargon attacked her on it. But that's basically it. She's still great in my book, and Carlgon of Swindon is a dumb fuck. The point is: no matter how intelligent, educated and thorough you are, that doesn't make you necessarily a good debater (and the reverse is true). I've toyed with the idea of making YouTube vids, and I know I'd stay far away from debating anyone because I don't have the quick wits and mental orderliness to handle it. Destiny is great in that regard.
I have a feeling he wouldn't be too great, but above all, he seems uninterested in the idea. He's gone on record saying he's kinda shy. But his videos are awesome. His debunking of the Einzelfall map ("another cooking fire... another cooking fire...") is hilarious. Three Arrows, who Shaun is often compared to, would fare much better, I feel.
I'm almost jealous you get to experience the rest for the first time. :D How PragerU Lies to You is fantastic. Also, if you need a break from politics, watch his videos on Cinema Sins. Also great!
Haha, yeah, that's the one I was talking about above. Couldn't remember the name of the map.
Yeah there's a difference between being someone who's incredibly knowledgeable and a good debater. You can argue Shaun and contrapoint are smarter or knowledgeable than Destiny at least in some ways but I would honestly rather have destiny debate the right wing than those two even if I agree with them way more than destiny. Like someone like Nick Fuentes is a racist dipshit and Sargon is sargon but they would probably get gish galloped to death where destiny has enough experience and confidence to not let them run their mouths.
It reminds me of some Ben Shapiro debates with inexperienced but intelligent college students or even Cenk from tyt where even though they can be completely right it doesn't really matter because Ben can dominate the debates and cause them to fluster and lose confidence which makes them look weak.
Basically there's a difference between being right and being good at debates
Destiny's entire thing, as he outright admits, is based on mental calculus where he's decided there is utilitarian reasons to combat white supremacy and bigotry, he outright admits he doesn;t actually care about minorities or women, his support of the "cause" hinges entirely on his mental calculus.
If he thought there was more utility in white supremacy, that's how he;d be.
That is a rocky foundation....
If he thought there was more utility in white supremacy, that's how he;d be.
That is a rocky foundation....
...god damn is that absolutely spot on.Saw this Contrapoints quote on the Chapo subreddit and found it very fitting for this thread.
