You're right. I just wish that there was at least one to echo Destiny's point so that they have a little extra perspective from an affected party.
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Here Is an Great Clip Of Streamer Destiny Explaining how Edgy Jokes & Memes Can have Bad Outcomes & normalizes racism/bigotry
- Thread starter IceFireTerry
- Start date
You're right. I just wish that there was at least one to echo Destiny's point so that they have a little extra perspective from an affected party.
He hosts a weekly podcast with Trihex, a black Twitch streamer, and they sometimes talk about political topics.
Also there are people of color and trans people involved in the discussions on the Rajj Royale or the Scuffed Podcast, even though those shows are quite trashy.
Also there are people of color and trans people involved in the discussions on the Rajj Royale or the Scuffed Podcast, even though those shows are quite trashy.
This is funny because he literally does a weekly podcast with TriHex, a black streamer, and they talk about this exact stuff, that is on right now...
I often wonder what causes people to get such strong opinions with so little information.
I actually fully disagree with this, having watched some of his other debates on more... weird topics. It's definitely a problem with a lot of left-leaning people that they can't properly formulate why they believe what they do and when pushed, fall back to "but... it's just wrong!" Not very convincing and essentially the same way we get a lot of homophobia, transphobia, etc. I think it's a good exercise for people to think about why they believe what they do and whether it's grounded or not.
I'm basing it off his own words that he shared here for all of us to read on his own volition.
I mean, Destiny is friends with Trihex on Twitch who is black and he hosts a podcast with him. Destiny is also half Cuban, his friend Hasan Piker is Turkish and Muslim and there are overlapping platforms where they share perspectives with each other.
Ok, so what's wrong with being able to defend why you believe what you believe? That's really what it boils down to.
Like may be you see it as having a rocky foundation, I see it as a more honest position than a lot of people have, especially since they've *done* the work and still kept the position they keep.
What?
I'm saying he outright admits he doesn't actually care about minorities.That our rights get hi support because of a utilitarian belief he has. If his calculus changed he'd ditch us without a thought because he doesn't actually give a shit about us.
I mean, isn't that true of basically any non minority? They have some reasoning for why they believe minorities need support (altruism, financial motive, utilitarianism, empathy, etc) and if that reason changed they may not support minorities. I think this is a game of semantics that isn't helpful to anyone. "This person would not be an ally if their core beliefs shifted significantly" is a statement that is basically applicable to anyone, so it is not meaningful criticism.
Look when someone tells me he doesn't actually give a shit about me.... I believe them.
Destiny's claim is that he has antisocial personality disorder, so he does not care about anyone, not specifically minorities.
edit: To be clear, I'm not defending him here. I think he is a useful ally, but his status as useful ally can be dropped if he changes his stance. But until he does, it makes sense to leverage him against all the alt right shitbags he trashes. Of course you may not feel the same way. It is a very sensitive subject and I respect people who feel differently.
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Is that supposed to make me feel better or something?
Dude doesn't give a shit about us, dude wants to still use bigoted language cause it's funny.... but I;m supposed to what be grateful he talks to random shitheads online? And hope my human rights still meet his utility requirements 2,3 ,10 years down the road?
I mean, are you locked in to forever supporting him if you support him right now? Are you locked in to agreeing with everything he says? You can always rescind your support if he changes his stance.
He has been criticized for his usage of language in the past and thus has adjusted to not use offensive language, so he seems willing to listen. You're not supposed to be grateful about anything he does? I'm not sure how you gather something like that. I see him as a gateway for centrist type people to move towards a more left leaning ideology, and he basically agrees with most democratic positions, so as an online personality, he is probably doing more good than harm, especially considering the average youtuber's political stances. Two people I know personally who used to be politically apathetic moderate/centrists discovered him and then started holding more progressive ideas after consuming his content. I consider that a win. I agree that he walks a very dangerous line, and should be called out/deplatformed if/when he does shitty things.
He literally came here to let everyone know he outright would not be stopping using bigoted language in private and what not.
Amazingly he could do all that shit and not be a guy who loves slurs and admits to not giving a shit about minorities.
I'm saying I don't trust him, and never will. I don;'t trust anyone whose support of my human rights hinges on I currently see you as having utlility and nothing more....
He's a shithead fighting greater shitheads.... Which is better than nothing but he's still a dude wh outright doesn't see my human rights as anything more than an equation... it's dehumanizing and it actively sucks that he's admired.
That is not what utilitarian means in this context and definitely not what he means, christ.
He has problem forming relations with people, because of something that happened in his childhood, and we can leave it at that.
Despite that, he is able to reason, without emotional attachment, that not harming people is a good thing, which includes people like minorities. That's why he feels it's ok to still say slurs in private, because he doesn't believe it actually harms anyone, and won't do it in public, because he does believe that will harm people.
So if anything, I trust him more that he can still come to the conclusion that harming minorities is bad without resorting to feelings. His "my position could theoretically change" stuff is essentially the same basis as scientific reasoning. Yes, we can't absolutely 100% be sure what we know is true will still be true tomorrow when presented with better evidence. That doesn't mean we're gonna flip on a dime and decide the earth is flat or it's suddenly okay to kill minorities.
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Right, and I agree that that is problematic, but he keeps that out of his content (I believe? I don't follow him that religiously). So the average person watching him would not be exposed to stuff like that. The point here is that I think there is a difference between agreeing with Destiny as a person (which I don't) versus utilizing the platform that he puts out. From the few debates I've seen, he puts forward a strong left leaning stance out and that is what the average viewer would get - which is a good thing for leftist politics, no? And if his utility (hah) is expanded and he is no longer acting as a pipeline for the left, then he can be abandoned. I think this is a reasonable stance. In the meantime, calling him out on his flaws is what we should keep doing. I want to make it clear that I do not think it is acceptable that he says those things privately (and used to say them publicly, right?). I'm just making a distinction between a person whom we would consider a leftist versus a useful ally to the left, which he is the latter. I don't think he is going to just go away, and I'd prefer if he were an actual leftist instead, but in the absence of that, I'm acknowledging the value his platform provides. I understand your arguments, and I do not disagree.
That being said, I'm writing these paragraphs here trying to inject a bit more nuanced view into the situation, and you're just replying with one liners and not engaging with the rest of my points, which I do not appreciate. I guess I'll disengage.
Well for one thing I can demonstrate that Destiny actively harms the discussion on the eradication of slurs... because my admitting to and defending his usage of slurs in private, it causes other people to come and defend him for it.... Essentially creating a conversation where people argue it's totally ok to use bigoted language because you like it as long as you do it privately... but wait it's not really that private when you tell everyone you do it.
No, I think his position on that is actually wrong. I can understand his reasoning but I think he hasn't actually taken the time to fully think it through yet. Especially with the fact that he's kept changing his view on it gradually over the years towards that it's not good in more and more contexts. But you taking that one thing to throw out everything else about him and all the good he's doing de-radicalizing the alt-right? I find that way more harmful actually.
I'm taking it to highlight why I don't like him and don't trust him.
I ain't gonna be passing around a petition to get him banned from YouTube.... But I do think it was right that he got banned here for example.... and I do think think we need better than him.
I dont get why anyone would follow destiny. He built his platform because he would use the n word and would use homophobic and racist language towards others. That was his schtick, that's the only reason we know who he is so hes still profiting off that even if hes stopped (publicly).
His current platform isn't built on that at all. The reason people know him today is because he's one of the few progressive voices that's actually out there pushing back against the alt-right.
I don't disagree that we should eradicate slurs. I am not defending his usage of slurs. I have not said it's ok even in private. The question is, what do you want to do about Destiny? Deplatform him? Change his mind? Any other option? If you want to deplatform him, do you think his platform is a net negative? Do you think his endorsements of critical thinking and general left leaning positions make up for his private usage of slurs? I'm guessing not. My stance here is that since his public platform is generally positive so the course of action is to push him to get better (which he has actually demonstrated a capability for) without endorsing him explicitly.
That being said, it's perfectly fine not to like him or not trust him. And I don't think my statements ever said that one should extend to him any trust beyond his explicit utility as a gateway to more leftist people.
I started following Destiny when he destroyed JonTron. I have zero interest in relitigating content that he's mostly done a 180 on months and years before I started following.
But what allowed him his current platform and his name to be out there to begin with? Using extremely homophobic and racist language
I agree completely. I feel like Destiny kills his whole message when he discusses his private usage.
So you're saying that all the people who came to hear him use racist language now go to his channel to hear positive things about inclusiveness and Democratic values?
These are the kinds of purity tests that are so toxic on the left. He's actually been proactive in curbing those things out of his language long before it was ever introduced in a Twitch TOS. He doesn't even use ableist slurs as far as I can tell and I watch him quite a bit.
He's admitted that he's said shit in the past that he's not proud of. If anything he's a good example of what can happen. That you can have someone that's extremely toxic and through listening to other voices they can come out of it on the other side. Isn't that a good thing? Particular because it's clear that he's being genuine about it.
So... assuming the people who followed him back then still follow him now and agree with his views, he's successfully gotten a whole group of people who loved publicly using homophobic and racist language to cut it out and keep it in private at least? While also talking to them about the stupidity of white ethnostatists? Cool I guess.
Then you haven't read this thread. There are definitely things to be critical of about him, but you can't dismiss the fact that:
- he has multiple intelligent, constructive conversations with left-leaning figures like Contrapoints, Hasan Piker and David Pakman
- he routinely debates and destroys alt-right figures on his stream
- Contrapoints literally says on camera that she is "pro-Destiny"
- former alt-righters like Faraday Speaks have gone on record saying Destiny (along with Contrapoints) saved them from falling into the Alt-Right rabbit hole
Just because he used to use slurs much more liberally years ago (and apparently still uses them in a purely private context) and was permabanned from ERA doesn't automatically means he's canceled. Messages like yours demonstrate either ignorance of the full context, or prove Contrapoints's argument that we have trouble staying united among progressives because of purity tests (among other things). He's closer to my idea of what an actual centrist should be than any leftist YouTuber, or any centrist personality. He's able to reach across the aisle and turn people into progressives, and very few people on the left have been able to do that so far. He's one of the strongest allies we have right now. And even if his ideas are rooted in large part in self-interest, it's unlikely he's going to go back to conservatism. Every month sees him become more and more progressive.
If you still can't get behind him, that's fine, but there are clear, valid reasons why a progressive person would follow him.
[EDIT] One last point: with all that said, I can understand why someone would grow cynical about him: judging by how internet personalities like PewdiePie and Boogie2988 have shown time and time again that they never learn and probably never will, some people actually do change and make amends for their past behavior. Destiny and Faraday Speaks are great examples of that, and they make me more hopeful about online political discourse.
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The problem with this is that there is no such thing as "private" racism. How you talk about people in private will affect how you treat them in your public interactions.
I'll give an example, if two guys got together in their apartment and started bashing women, using all kinds of sexist and misogynistic slurs, slut shaming etc. But they never use any slurs towards women in public.
Do you really think those two guys, despite not using sexist slurs in public treat women the same way as they do men?
I started following Destiny after he destroyed Sargon in his first debate, and enjoyed his regular obliteration of alt-right dipshits since them. Anyone saying that Destiny is some right-winger in disguise is just being disingenuous.
Also, why are people glossing over the part where he says he's been slowly eradicating slurs from his vocabulary? He never says the n-word or homophobic slurs anymore on his stream, except when he cites them in a sentence. My main problem with his language right now is that, AFAIK, he still uses words like "autistic" and "retarded", which... Yeah, it's not great, not gonna lie. THough to be fair, I don't always pay attention to the publishing dates of his videos. For all I know, those could be past instances, and maybe he doesn't use them anymore. Can't remember. But anyway, if the past is any indication, he'll probably phase out those words as time goes by.
I'm sure its been made clear many times that he discusses often and is very clear that content creators are responsible for the messages they send out since these messages influence their fan base. So saying he built his platform off of racism and homophobia doesnt account for Destiny's current beliefs about messaging. He's an asshole, but he understands his influence on other people's beliefs and what effect that can have.
He has essentially removed "autistic" and "retarded" out of his vocab as well in recent months. Don't think I've heard him say it in a while except when quoting it.
He also made a twitter thread about how he is trying to reduce making fun of people for their appearances.
Ugh, yes, I absolutely detest those Shapiro "debates" with college students and such. This also highlights why there are very few actual scientists who will debate, say, creationists. Scientific truth isn't derived by seeing who is better at debating on the fly.
It is, of course, good for persuasion, which is why I'm glad we have people willing to wade into the cesspools and fight that fight. (Ironically, that's also why creationists want to debate - because they know the facts aren't on their side and just want to persuade.)
This assumes problematic jokes are made in private because they advocate those beliefs and not to shock or be an edge lord. Unless you think humor by saying outlandish things specifically because they are outlandish isn't genuine. I mean comedians make jokes referencing stereotypes all the time and we deem it ok because of context. If your in private setting where you can control the context I feel it's not disqualifying to make a joke depending on the context.
Some of you have a really tough time calling people out on their shit. How do we expect to unite under the same cause, when we don't even hold those in our own circle up to the standards to which we hold everyone else. Destiny may be a great debater and have some good political views, but that doesn't excuse him from anything he's said in the past, nor does it give him a free pass for anything he might say - public or private.
In private you may be able to control the context of a joke, but when you outright tell your stream that you say these things in private all that does is tell your views that it's OK to say these things, just make sure no one hears you. That's my issue here. Racist jokes are still racist, whether you say them in private or not. It's hard to speak out against racism, when you still have a good time laughing at that kind of humor.
I'm all for people changing, but you actually have to change.
edited my post to be less of a response and more of a general statement.
In private you may be able to control the context of a joke, but when you outright tell your stream that you say these things in private all that does is tell your views that it's OK to say these things, just make sure no one hears you. That's my issue here. Racist jokes are still racist, whether you say them in private or not. It's hard to speak out against racism, when you still have a good time laughing at that kind of humor.
I'm all for people changing, but you actually have to change.
edited my post to be less of a response and more of a general statement.
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Of course you don't have to support him. I'm not one to tell you to follow him if you can't get past the more questionable aspects of his views and behavior. That's fine. His style and content is definitely not for everyone.
I was reacting to this notion that there are no legitimate signs or reasons why Destiny would be worth following as a progressive. Well, there definitely are.
The only thing I find contentious in your post is the last part: he is not "working against the cause". He's actively working for it. Are there still aspects of him that are contradictory to his progressive ideas? Yes, definitely. But the positives far outweigh the negatives for me so far. His effect on online discourse seems to be a net positive. Plus, look at RellikSK 's post above: do those tweets strike you as something someone who is working against the cause would say? We have to acknowledge all the improvements he's made. Doesn't mean you have to follow him or be 100% apologetic for him. But he is not an enemy by any stretch of the imagination.
When I say it's working against the cause, I mean that Destiny telling people that's he's OK telling questionable jokes in private normalizes that kind of thinking among his viewers. Racists jokes are still racists, whether they're said in private or in public. If he wants to become a mouthpiece for the left, he should probably reconsider what he finds funny.
I agree in saying that he's not an enemy, but he needs to be better.
I can certainly agree with the idea that it's pointless (if not outright counterproductive) to specifically say that he's still making questionable jokes in private. It doesn't add anything. But whatever normalizing effect it has, I think, is counteracted by how he acts in public and all the progressive arguments he has on his stream and on YouTube. It's a net positive. It would be even better if he hadn't said that at all, for sure, but in the grand scheme of things I'm not too bothered by it.
I don't think anybody disagrees with that. At least I don't. But I'll admit I'd rather emphasize the good he's doing because, to me, there are many more positives about him than negative (like, overwhelmingly), and he's one of the stronger 'weapons' we got, if that makes sens. He's in a unique position to a) debate alt-righters much more effectively than other progressives, b) deradicalize right-leaning people. By all means, let's hold him accountable, but let's also be careful in how we go about criticizing him. Not talking about you necessarily, but the person who I was reacting to. I think it would be a mistake to just 'cancel' him or being overly zealous in calling him out when he slips up. I'll say this one last time and never mention it again: now that I know what he's about, I think it's unfortunate that he was permabanned on ERA. I totally get why he was banned, but I think we would benefit from him still being part of the community. But I guess that won't change, and that's okay, if too bad.
Destiny: over 2 years, literally changing his stance on things like slurs and deplatforming into closer to what the left believes.
Posters: He NEVER changes! What if he gets worse?!
Uh, ok.
People aren't perfect, and I don't expect people to be. I also don't expect people to magically change all their beliefs overnight. But if in my eyes, they're growing towards what I consider to be good? I'm not gonna buy into the concern trolling.
Posters: He NEVER changes! What if he gets worse?!
Uh, ok.
People aren't perfect, and I don't expect people to be. I also don't expect people to magically change all their beliefs overnight. But if in my eyes, they're growing towards what I consider to be good? I'm not gonna buy into the concern trolling.
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dude was banned on twitch for a month for saying the f word. he still salty about it to this day. his friends even think its bs to be banned for it. its encouraging he argues with the right but he isnt all that changed. what he changed is how he moderates himself on stream. off? anything goes. he isnt doing this out of the goodness and respect for minorities, he just wants to keep being well off financially.
Is he salty about being banned, or is he salty about Twitch's handling of it? If you have a clip of him actually stating that he's salty about the former then I'm willing to take a look. I think there was also a thing about Twitch not properly notifying people about warnings when he was talking to another streamer and their experience so the bans can sometimes come as a surprise. From what I've seen he's generally not happy with the way Twitch handles controversies, trying to have their cake and eat it too (like IRL streams)
It's very similar to the whole n word thing that happened with the other streamer recently. In his view, if Twitch is gonna ban someone, then ban them properly and stick to it. Or if they realize they fucked up, then just lift the ban, don't do the wish-washy we'll commute it to a shorter ban period thing that Twitch does.
The only other thing I recall from him talking recently-ish was about some alt-right people (Keemstar and maybe TheQuartering I think) trying to deplatform Destiny because he had a debate about whether or not political violence could be morally justified and bringing up how he's already been banned in the past and he was like, "I've been banned 4 times in a whole 10 years of streaming. Big whoop?"
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I had a lot of responses to my comments but I'll respond to this one. I'm against a lot of the purity tests that public figures get put through. In the case of Destiny, I'm not. The difference is that Destiny directly profited directly from using the n-word, calling others homophobic slurs, etc. He was famous for it! The only reason people way back when would tune into his Justin.tv or his sc2 stream was to see it! That's a very rare case and really destiny is the only one I can think of that that applies to so I dont think the broad use of purity test works at all. I get that hes changed to extent where he wont use those words publicly. Fine(?). But him using those words before allowed him the platform (and still profit off of) for his famous debates later with the likes of Jontron. If he had never used the n word (or similar terms) to begin with he would never have gotten that opportunity so I still feel he is profiting off it and I dont like it.
Can I just say that it's weird how the OP is apparently a video on how edgy jokes and memes can have bad outcomes and normalize bigotry and yet a whole lot of comments in this thread now are about how certain racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. comment is acceptable in private because it's just edgy jokes
To quote C+C Music Factory, it's the kind of thing that makes you go hm
To quote C+C Music Factory, it's the kind of thing that makes you go hm
What the fuck are you talking about?
I came to know Destiny for the second time due to the Jontron debate. Before that I'd only heard his name as a starcraft player back in the early days of ustream and justin.tv
He is categorically not crypto fascist, and is in fact anti-fascist. He even agrees that you can't criticise people for defending themselves against violence, and goes so far to include structural violence in that definition.
He's expressed a lot of terrible views and it's easy to see why he's banned here, but he's better when it comes to the far right than most mainstream liberals.