Hermione the SJW, because the House-Elves are being fucked

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,426
Okay, before we start, lets get one thing fucking straight here.

90% of the time anyone uses the term "SJW" unironically, they're being a tool. And in the cases where a real life person is calling another real life person one, that rounds the figure up to 100%. It's an utterly insipid term coined by a bunch of douchebags whose sole purpose is to shame people from caring about things that hurt them and/or other people. That's it's only real purpose. It's alleged purpose is to target not anyone who cares about issues, but only the ones who do so 'extremely', the ones who allegedly somehow cause more harm to their cause by being active about it. It's supposed to be, to it's defenders, only for the fanatics and crazies that make the sane people for that same cause look bad, like how many might agree with Richard Dawkins advocacy for Atheism in society but still think he's a dick and needs to chill the fuck out. But, of course, in practice, the line of what counts as extreme changes arbitrarily to on a case by case basis to be whatever the subject in question is doing, until they are doing literally nothing, or even then. And besides the dishonest way in which it is used, it's also inherently hypocritical. By rejecting, criticizing, and pushing back against a person trying to promote a social cause, you are, by definition, making a statement on how matters of social justice ought be handled. For example, lets say you hypothetically found a person for which the term fits what they are allegedly meant to be used for, the very definition of calling someone an SJW is implying that their worldview, actions and/or personality is a bad to promote and that people shouldn't think like this or act like it's acceptable behavior and oh my god, your promoting a social view you believe is just, SJW alert!

It's a stupid, stupid, stupid term that's never used to it's alleged purpose and only serves as a tool for obfuscation for assholes. Even when used 'properly', it's a lazy blanket insult that doesn't actually say anything meaningful. It has no place in any reasonable discourse taking place in a real world setting where contemporary real life subjects are being discussed.

It's also not even clever! Okay, this is a minor point that bugs me specifically, but of all the possible insults you could make to essentially call someone crazy, how the fuck is it that they landed on the one that only sounds even remotely palatable when you reduce it to a plain acronym?! No one says Social Justice Warrior because it's unwieldy as an insult, so they had to bludgeon it down to three letters and then repeat it often enough until it became colloquial, but you can brute force that with any 3 letters. For fucks say, even Rowling know that acronyms are only funny if the word they make together sounds funny! That's why she had Hermione name it S.P.E.W. as a joke in the books! One that worked and was actually fucking funny! Fuck this term!

Okay, okay, I'm chilling out now. I just wanted there to be no question whatsoever about how I viewed that insipid term. And, obviously, I had a lot of internal debate over naming my thread like this. Nevertheless, I came to the conclusion that it was genuinely an appropriate use of it in this specific context, and hopefully you'll see why by the end of this thread.

In Goblet of Fire, Hermione was introduced to the concept of House Elves. I will summarize as much as I can to put the quotes in their appropriate context, but this book's mystery is a bit more convoluted than usual, so bare with me. Winky is the house elf of Barty Crouch, a Ministry of Magic official. She was saving him a seat in a top row in the Quidditch World Cup, but he never showed up. Afterwards, the magical Alt-Right had a minor riot and non-lethally lynched some muggles, but then left after someone shot the Voldy-Symbol (called the Dark Mark) into the air. Winky was found at the scene where the Voldy-Symbol originated and was questioned, but it was deduced that she could not have lit the Voldy-Symbol. For full disclosure, it should be noted that she was deeply involved with the person who did, and she bullshitted the questioning by omitting information that Barty would rather kept secret, but, really, that's tangential. Anyway, once she gets to school, she starts an organization to try to better House Elves treatment, which basically gets no members through the book.

So lets begin our discussion.

Part 1. The SJW awakens

It's been observed by multiple people that the villains of Harry Potter are startlingly similar not to the original Nazi's that Rowling drew most inspiration from, but rather the modern day Alt-right movement that we see now. I'll probably do a topic on that later on, so I'll just say that I agree with that statement. However, in association of that, she also predicted another topical trend, which is that of the SJW. (I should point out that the SJW isn't a wholly unique archtype, the basic parts of it have been in fiction throughout time. However, with the association of all the other alt-right trends, it can be counted amongst the rest as prophetic)

I think it's important to keep in mind that the only context we have of House-Elves before this book is Dobby, who was a clearly abused victim of the Malfoys. It's made clear that he is someone who loves serving, but he also HAS to serve against his will. His only way of defying the Malfoys is to by using technical loopholes and even then he is compulsed into punishing himself by his own instincts. If we only knew Dobby, which the audience did before this book, it'd be hard to say that Hermione is saying anything but an observed fact here.

However, this book also frames her as being huffy and self important and patronizing from the get-go. She starts lecturing about how bullshit their lot is, and people just act exasperated and bewildered. And when they do, Hermione simply ignores or otherwise is framed as reacting unreasonably to them.

If you were to ask an alt-righter how he views discussions with what he calls SJW's, he would paint a picture roughly similar to this. A person who is coming in with maybe noble, but ultimately self righteous intentions to correct a perceived wrong that only they see as a wrong. And when they are given perfectly reasonable, measured, intelligent responses that explain to them that they are incorrect and things are fine the way they are, they are just ignored because Hermione can't come up with a reasonable retort. Everything Hermione says here is out of ignorance lacking self awareness. The House-Elves are fine, Hermione, they LIKE it. But she just refuses to be convinced.

If you were to ask an ordinary person, they would see this as something as a white-man's-burden plot. Note that Hermione does not ask the house elves either for help nor their opinion on her campaign. She outright states she views them as brainwashed idiots who can't decide for themselves, but wants the moral grounding to save them. And, of course, she shouldn't just straight up ignoring that the elves want the work, to the point where they would rather suffer abuse than be free of it.

Of all the responses, it's Hagrids that I believe is framed, I think as being the one that most effectively demonstrates this, as Hagrid takes the care of magical creatures far more seriously than most.

Hermione's response isn't shown, but the next scene has her going about her SPEW business as usual, so it was as ineffective as the rest. And this is just the primary framing of Hermione's behavior here, where she is just this crusader wannabe convinced of her own righteousness so much that she is simply beyond reason. I should note that she doesn't actually....do anything with this plotline. Eventually, Hermione just starts paying more attention to Rita Skeeter printing fake news about them (again, the predictions to future Alt-right trends Rowling made are startling) and the SPEW thing just sort of ends up being this thing that she still maintains is a good idea, but it's not really expounded on for the rest of the book. I do remember it coming up in books 5, 6, and 7 (with Ron expressing concern for House-elves being the thing that leads to Hermione kissing him and them finally getting together), but it never takes center stage again as far as I can recall.

So here we have the Proto-SJW.

With that overview in mind, I want to wind back to the start of the novel. Like Hermione's SPEW campaign, the novel doesn't actually involve house elves too much. Dobby helps Harry out in the second task of the Triwizard Tournament, but that's his own individual action, and Winky occasionally appears as she's part of the mystery plot happening, but doesn't really do anything except mope. However, the relevant piece of information is the start where Winky is questioned, because that's where we see how House Elves are treated

Part 2. The Elves are being fucked

Okay, so like I said in the summary of events I gave, Winky is found and was accused of conjuring the dark mark. This being the incident that spurs Hermione to her SJW ways, it's significant. What Hermione took away from this is that Crouch had the authority to make Winky do things she didn't want to do. That it's slavery, and that it's bad. We'll...discuss that particular aspect in a bit, but I'd like to draw your attention to something else first.

Okay, Winky's being accused and she has to defend her innocence. She has 3 witnesses to back her story, but they are ignored. Yet, by the end of the scene, it's agreed by all that she is innocent of conjuring the dark mark. Amos is sure that she is the one who did it...until crouch suggests that by accusing her, she's accusing him.

So, rather than any deductive logic or reason, she's innocent by association with the powerful. And then, after her innocence is proven, she still needs to be questioned in an official...police report, or whatever the equivalent is in the wizarding world. And again, Crouch simply nopes it, and decides that he should deal with Winky herself.

What is important here is not what happens, but what it establishes in terms of worldbuilding. Namely, that the Elves are being fucked. They have no rights, their guilt is assumed when it's convenient, and they are utterly subject to their master. What protects Winky from being assumed guilty without a trial is that her master is an inconvienent person to accuse. And what really struck me was when Crouch demanded that he would deal with Winky himself. In a darker novel, Crouch would do more than just fire her. It's pretty open that the Malfoys abused Dobby, and Sirius was no friend to Kreature in the 5th novel. And that's notable too. Unlike other characters, Sirius is a 'good' character, but he nevertheless abused Kreature in the next book, which ironically lead to his death, and was then later much more pleasant when treated well by Harry.

What I'm trying to point out here is that House-Elves aren't slaves in that their made to do their masters bidding, but slaves in the sense that they have no rights. Yeah, a wizard COULD be nice to them but a wizard being an evil bastard to them has no real consequences except in very extraneous circumstances. The book even says as much when Hermione explains why she doesn't have this protectiveness toward other creatures.

The House-Elves legitimately have no way of fighting back against any kind of abuse, with no indication that a wizard master can't simply torture or kill a house-elf on a whim. Instead, the conversation is framed as "Well, there's no problem so long as the master is nice to the house-elf, is there?"

But if there aren't systems in place to keep people respecting other groups of people as people, then dehumanization happens. And this is very present in the interaction here.

Amos Diggory isn't a bigot against House-elves in particular, nor is Ron, nor is Mr. Weasley, but hey are all exhibiting an utter lack of concern for the wellbeing of another creature because they were raised in a culture where House-Elves are just expected to be stepped on because...well, what are they gonna do about it?

Which is where the uncomfortable real world parallels start seeping in, don't they? House-elves, as far as I can tell, aren't analogues to any human ethnic group (Which thank god, because them being pretty much entirely fictious creatures is the only thing that makes their situation palatable), but them being dehumanized as a group is disturbingly human.

Part 3. How Elves Be

While we're it, there is one thing we should talk about. The Nature of Elves. Despite the primary objection to Hermione being "This is just how they are", they never really go into how the house-elves came to be this way.

This, in itself, isn't usual. The world that Rowling created is a sort of classical fairy tale in it's design. Things just are a certain way. That's why we never get into discussions about how her magic system actually works or what it's limitations are, and I would say that we don't get an origin story of any creature encountered in the story. It might not be fair to demand that Rowling have an explanation for House-Elves when we don't really have an explanation for anything. Where do pheonix's come from? Basilisks? Three headed dogs? How do Ghosts work (this actually is asked by Harry in one book, but we are denied an answer), or the paintings of people who seem to be alive, or the numerous magical things we see?

The thing is, the House-Elves are unique in that they seem to exist to serve wizards. All those other things, they just exist in the Harry Potter world and interact with wizards, but House Elves devote their entire existence to serving Wizards specifically. In this, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask "Why". What do House-Elves get out of working for wizards that they don't get out of working for themselves? What did they do before wizards, or how did they come into existence with wizards. Because I can't think of anything that doesn't come down to "And then wizards put a spell on this species to take pleasure in serving them, so that their children and their children's children would forever remain their slaves." Basically, what I'm saying is that I can't believe this to be their natural existence.

I mean, look at this.

Dobby hated the Malfoys, hasn't been under their power for 2 years, and even then just mildy framing them with a negative connotation compulses him to physically punish himself. What does that? It's either a cartoonish version of PTSD where the Dobby is prone to self harm but through a kids filter... or else it's a generational wizard curse that ensures House-Elves absolute obedience. This just isn't normal, not even in Harry Potter's world. And that's a pretty important distinction to make, because the whole "it's what they like" excuse just doesn't ring as true if they are being FORCED to like their servitude under coersion.

it should be noted that even Elves are unsympathetic. They don't give a shit that one of their own is miserable, because they are themselves so deadset on having work done. In this scene, winky has been utterly miserable for months on end because she failed her master, and the house elves just resent her for not working more.

Okay, so we have Hermione being unpleasant, we have the fact that House-Elves have no support system, and we have that the way House-Elves like their work being iffy at best. What am I building up to here?

What this comes down to"]What I've observed is that JKR's shoddy worldbuilding kind of worked in her favor here in a very unintentional way. Don' get me wrong, the narrative framework works to the favor of portraying Hermione's fanaticism in a bad way...but the same way the fundamental objections to most SJW's falls apart on closer inspection, Hermione's SPEW is vindicated, atleast in my eyes, by the reading inbetween the lines of the story. When you get down to it, SPEW's goals are promotion of Elf's welfare and legal standing, though they never get into the specifics. Hermione wants to set them 'free', which everyone, including the House-Elves, object to on the grounds that they like it, and Hermione never justifies it in any way....

But SPEW'S goals can be easily justified with minor rewording and reframing of the narrative. Elves should have freedom to LEAVE. If their master is being an abusive piece of shit, they should be able to go "Fuck this" and go find another job. But being a slave is so ingrained into the entire wizard culture, and even seemingly into their psyche, that Elves would literally rather be abused than go somewhere else. And it's not being culturally insensitive or ignorant of anyone's ways to say that is entirely fucked. It's unhealthy and abusive for such a way of doing things to exist.

Again, this is neither to suggest that Rowling fucked up in some major way, because I don't think she did (or, atleast not moreso than her other worldbuilding issues), nor is it to suggest that Rowling planned any of this (because lol no). I'm just making the observation that in the midst of all this surprisingly accurate capture of the alt-right psyche, she seems to have tried to create a mocking depiction of what they view as SJW's as ignorant and idiotic in their self-righteousness.

But instead, by complete accident, what she actually created is how the alt-right misframes SJW's, in that they think the issues being brought up don't have merit. But Hermione's campaign DOES have merit. The elves are being fucked. It's just not framed as having such.

Plus, this is peppered in with more nuanced writings on prejudice

Even though Ron is Hagrid's friend, even he lets himself get carried by his prejudices against giants. And the issue of being prejudiced against a fictional race that is framed as a legitimate threat is another thing entirely, but the point here is that Hermione here offers much more nuanced, realistic, and positively depicted statements against bigotry.

Still, maybe I'm just looking too much into this, with this being a silly kids book that does silly things.

Part 4. No, for real, the elves are being *FUCKED*

You know, Fantastic Beasts 2 is a really shitty movie. It's so bad for so many reasons, to the point where when you go back, you are surprised by the shitty things you missed before hand.



This is Irma Dugard, a half elf, who took care of credence when he was a baby. Other than to deliver some minor exposition, she dies pretty quick after her introduction, so I didn't give too much thought to her as I was being distracted by Grindelwald's No-Homo Friendship Necklace with Dumbledore and Credences origin reveal that was immediately turned into a different origin reveal because Rowling put twists to her twist that took like 15 minutes of exposition to reveal and Newt, the main character, basically had nothing to do with any of it.

But later on, in looking up info to make sure I didn't miss anything while writing this, I came across her again, and it hit me. She's a Elf-human hybrid.

Someone is fucking the house-elves. Someone is fucking the house-elves.

...

And you know, this isn't like the normal human hybrids here. Hagrid, he talks about how his mom was a shitty mom, but nothing about the story implies that his birth was the result of giant rape. His dad, it seems, was just freaky. Same thing with flitwick, he was half-goblin, which as mentioned before, the Goblins have both independence and rights within the wizarding community. So, again, Flitwick is presumably the result of a very freaky human and goblin getting on with their freakiness.

Not so with house-elves. House-Elves have to obey their masters in everything. In EVERYTHING.

Can you ever imagine those huge eyes Dobby has with the same innocence ever again?

In conclusion, the wizarding world needs SPEW
 
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Abstrusity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
Yeah, turns out there isn't a reasonable retort to "yeah but they like being slaves so it's ok." It's so beyond the pale that you deserve a bat to the side of the head more than a proper discussion. The only time you'd think something like that is if you don't regard the subject in question as people or, at the very least, thinking, feeling, equals.

"They seem to like it" is not an excuse for "literal slavery," it never has been and never will be, and it's understandable why Hermione would act the way she does, self-important, or at least righteous, while also shocked that anyone could think otherwise.

It's because the culture says one thing but the people steeped in that culture turn around and say something entirely different. Like, all the Christians who claim to be the best Christians but then turn around and say that people SHOULD starve, people SHOULD die, people who aren't white SHOULD be lynched, murdered and etcetera, and it's ok, because they're "the other."

IT might be her very first time meeting someone as she starts to think this way, that she has no retort but still wants to try to make one.
 

Stopdoor

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Oct 25, 2017
4,255
It's probably also worth considering that she's like 14/15 and has no support when this is most a topic in the books, so she's not going to handle it with pure grace. She'll make mistakes in trying to stick up for them and might come across as unreasonable. But either way it's hard to disagree with her that the elves have a really bad deal going on.
 

PHOENIXZERO

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,560
What's wrong with Jewish women who want to be sexy?


I'm also tired of the "SJW" shit. As for Harry Potter stuff ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I've never read the books. But this seems like a case of expecting more from a character that's a teenager even if she was the "grown up" one of the group.
 

Fat4all

Community Retriever
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Oct 25, 2017
51,942
here
I’m gonna start making wizards posts hats

if you quote me you might be set free
 

kiguel182

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Oct 31, 2017
7,197
I think having a 14 year old being fanatic after finding out her entire society is built on slave work is understandable.

Does she come off too strong? Sure. But she is also trying to show people how slavery is wrong and the response is just "they like it" when the books show, in an obvious way, how their "liking it" is more like brainwashing than anything else. I mean, you talk about that and show how they are fucked but even when they are treated well they are happy being slaves but they also never had anything else but slavery shown to them. That's not right.

How frustrating would it be for someone to see slavery, trying to talk about it, and your best friends are like "they like it and the world can't possibly function any way else".

I think I get what you were trying to get with SJWs but honestly, getting angry at slavery and how no-one gives a crap seems like the most reasonable thing to me. Asking someone to be "reasonable" when she is seeing human-like creatures being treated like that is a big ask. Especially when you consider she is a teen and has just discovered this.

Anyway, house elfs are being fucked.
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,338
I think having a 14 year old being fanatic after finding out her entire society is built on slave work is understandable.

Does she come off too strong? Sure. But she is also trying to show people how slavery is wrong and the response is just "they like it" when the books show, in an obvious way, how their "liking it" is more like brainwashing than anything else. I mean, you talk about that and show how they are fucked but even when they are treated well they are happy being slaves but they also never had anything else but slavery shown to them. That's not right.

How frustrating would it be for someone to see slavery, trying to talk about it, and your best friends are like "they like it and the world can't possibly function any way else".

I think I get what you were trying to get with SJWs but honestly, getting angry at slavery and how no-one gives a crap seems like the most reasonable thing to me. Asking someone to be "reasonable" when she is seeing human-like creatures being treated like that is a big ask. Especially when you consider she is a teen and has just discovered this.

Anyway, house elfs are being fucked.
I think people get why Hermoine is passionate including her being a muggle born plus her being incredibly stubborn and self righteous in the books

The issue is the actual execution in regards to the elves being happy or content and shit like that

(Forgive me if details are wrong I haven't read the book in years)
 

kiguel182

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Oct 31, 2017
7,197
I think people get why Hermoine is passionate including her being a muggle born plus her being incredibly stubborn and self righteous in the books

The issue is the actual execution in regards to the elves being happy or content and shit like that

(Forgive me if details are wrong I haven't read the book in years)
I'm addressing the OP here because he mentions how she never asked the elfs if they wanted freedom and says that they, in fact, do not want to be free.

But can we say that for certain when they were never taught anything else? Can we take at face value that they are "happy" when they have been engineered (either magically or socially) to be slaves and to think their worth is based on their work.

I disagree with the OP with the idea that the elfs saying they are happy negates the original purpose of Hermione (to free them). I don't think she needs to reframe it just because they say they are happy.

Regarding the writing itself I think Rowling makes a pretty clear point that their existence sucks and I don't think she wants to portray Hermione as "SJW". Especially since Ron is portrayed as an idiot who just doesn't care and only retort is "they love to serve us!".
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,774
Yeah, turns out there isn't a reasonable retort to "yeah but they like being slaves so it's ok." It's so beyond the pale that you deserve a bat to the side of the head more than a proper discussion. The only time you'd think something like that is if you don't regard the subject in question as people or, at the very least, thinking, feeling, equals.
The whole plotline was put there not because the author is telling anything about slavery in itself, it's an excuse to make a bit of characterization to Hermonie, and do a 'Lisa Simpson': painting her a very moral, upstanding and progressive, but also overbearing and sanctimonious, while also doing it with a slight comedy touch (the twist, the elves like it that way!). Pretty much like the Simpsons, in fact.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
I thought about Dobby and the Houe Elves when there was the thread about the YA Author Who Got Lambasted for a Vaguely Racial Metaphor in her book. Would something like the Elves even make it past the censors at modern-day publishers? It's an incredibly ham-fisted and clumsy metaphor for black slavery. Shit, they're even called House Elves.

I was never sure what the purpose of all these digressions was supposed to be since they don't really serve the greater story that much. I was also never sure if it's supposed to be a joke on Hermione's self-righteousness and seriousness......it doesn't seem like her position is ever really vindicated in the novels.

This plot thread was completely dropped for the films, wasn't it? I haven't seen any of them in probably a decade.
 

caliph95

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Oct 25, 2017
29,338
I'm addressing the OP here because he mentions how she never asked the elfs if they wanted freedom and says that they, in fact, do not want to be free.

But can we say that for certain when they were never taught anything else? Can we take at face value that they are "happy" when they have been engineered (either magically or socially) to be slaves and to think their worth is based on their work.

I disagree with the OP with the idea that the elfs saying they are happy negates the original purpose of Hermione (to free them). I don't think she needs to reframe it just because they say they are happy.

Regarding the writing itself I think Rowling makes a pretty clear point that their existence sucks and I don't think she wants to portray Hermione as "SJW". Especially since Ron is portrayed as an idiot who just doesn't care and only retort is "they love to serve us!".
Honestly you could be right my memory of the books is super hazy
I thought about Dobby and the Houe Elves when there was the thread about the YA Author Who Got Lambasted for a Vaguely Racial Metaphor in her book. Would something like the Elves even make it past the censors at modern-day publishers? It's an incredibly ham-fisted and clumsy metaphor for black slavery. Shit, they're even called House Elves.

I was never sure what the purpose of all these digressions was supposed to be since they don't really serve the greater story that much. I was also never sure if it's supposed to be a joke on Hermione's self-righteousness and seriousness......it doesn't seem like her position is ever really vindicated in the novels.

This plot thread was completely dropped for the films, wasn't it? I haven't seen any of them in probably a decade.
I'm guessing is because the plot is more to give Hermoine shit to do and explore Hermoine character but I don't think it was relevant to the overall plot and the movies tend to cut out overall school shenanigans because they only have like 2 hours and they focus on overall plot in an attempt to not bloat the movie
 

Wiped

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
2,096
I think you're getting confused between what is being outlined to you as being bad as a commentary on society issues and what appears to be a bad thing full stop.

Like if JKR had made it so the elves could leave and everything was more fair and balanced it misses the entire point she made it the way she did. Our society isn't fair, is what she is saying, and writing it like that is supposed to highlight it.
 

L Thammy

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Oct 25, 2017
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I'm addressing the OP here because he mentions how she never asked the elfs if they wanted freedom and says that they, in fact, do not want to be free.

But can we say that for certain when they were never taught anything else? Can we take at face value that they are "happy" when they have been engineered (either magically or socially) to be slaves and to think their worth is based on their work.

I disagree with the OP with the idea that the elfs saying they are happy negates the original purpose of Hermione (to free them). I don't think she needs to reframe it just because they say they are happy.

Regarding the writing itself I think Rowling makes a pretty clear point that their existence sucks and I don't think she wants to portray Hermione as "SJW". Especially since Ron is portrayed as an idiot who just doesn't care and only retort is "they love to serve us!".
Don't even remember anything from the one Harry Potter book I've read, but what I got out of the OP is that the book itself frames Hermione in a SJW-like way. The issue she's passionate about seems to be valid, but it's presented as if she's just making a lot f noise over nothing and that it's not really an issue, even though there's evidence that the issue is just going unspoken.


As a side note, I'm pretty sure the house elves being happy to be enslaved (Dobby refers to it as enslavement in one of those excerpts, right?) has some resemblance to the portrayal of slavery, especially after the American Civil War. It was a way of romanticizing slavery and portraying the Confederacy as victims.
 
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kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,197
Don't even remember anything from the one Harry Potter book I've read, but what I got out of the OP is that the book itself frames Hermione in a SJW-like way. The issue she's passionate about seems to be valid, but it's presented as if she's just making a lot f noise over nothing and that it's not really an issue, even though there's evidence that the issue is just going unspoken.
Yeah, I'm arguing against that.

I think making a lot of noise when you find out your society is built on slave work and when you point that out your best friends shudder and say "they like it" without questioning why they like it (how can you even be happy if you haven't tried any other reality or when for generations you are created to serve humans with no other purpose given?) is totally reasonable.

I think elfs saying they are happy doesn't make Hermione unreasonable. And I think Rowlins portrays most of the people as bigoted against the elfs (and Ron as an idiot). Hagrid kinda "both sides" it and you can argue that Rowlin wrote him as the "voice of reason" and that's problematic but I think Hermione's behaviour makes total sense and it's not exaggerated to paint her as hysterical or anything. Especially since the character is stubborn and over bearing from the first interaction with her so it's in character for them.
 

kiguel182

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Oct 31, 2017
7,197
I really don't think the the point is that the elfs like it. The authors point I mean.

Rowlin goes out of her way to show that they are mistreated. How Dobby likes being free and how weird it is that he is outcasted for that. Elfs don't describe their condition as something happy but more "we do this because we must".

Maybe my read is totally off the mark. But I never thought the elfs were supposed to be happy and Hermione wrong. Harry even agrees with her I think.

But maybe the idea of her being radical is an attempt to make fun of her? I don't think radicalism when it comes to slavery is dumb but well, maybe that was Rowlins intent.
 

Aexact

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Oct 30, 2017
2,468
I wonder if it’s a British vs American mindset because even as a kid, it was hard for me to parse why Hermione was in the wrong despite the book framing it that way, that she was being presumptuous.

... yeah ok but even with the stipulation of this being a world with magic beings, my own presumption was that even sentient magic beings wouldn’t like being slaves.
 

Zeshile

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Dec 22, 2017
300
Kansas
I don't remember, does Harry take a side in this? You would think growing up a muggle, he would have at least a little understanding of what she's trying to do here.
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,338
I wonder if it’s a British vs American mindset because even as a kid, it was hard for me to parse why Hermione was in the wrong despite the book framing it that way, that she was being presumptuous.

... yeah ok but even with the stipulation of this being a world with magic beings, my own presumption was that even sentient magic beings wouldn’t like being slaves.
Honestly considering Dobby and another abuser elf I don't think it was supposed to be okay like someone else said iirc it was just Hermoine being Hermoine even if she's totally right
 

Xagarath

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,602
North-East England
House Elves are based on European folklore, but the original folk tales have them as uncontrollable, mischievous spirits who demand offerings in exchange for doing the housework, and leave if offered clothing because the gift offends them, not because it magically frees them from bondage.
The slavery parallel was Rowling's addition.
 

Starviper

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,431
Minneapolis
House Elves are based on European folklore, but the original folk tales have them as uncontrollable, mischievous spirits who demand offerings in exchange for doing the housework, and leave if offered clothing because the gift offends them, not because it magically frees them from bondage.
The slavery parallel was Rowling's addition.
Woah, now I actually learned something from this thread. Very cool!
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
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Oct 25, 2017
16,696
Minneapolis
I don't remember, does Harry take a side in this? You would think growing up a muggle, he would have at least a little understanding of what she's trying to do here.
My take is that Harry (and the narrative) agrees with Hermione on the principle, he's just more practical about it. In other words, he'd rather keep his head down and struggle through wizard high school without getting caught up in any more social movements than he has to.

I like Harry's perspective as an outsider to the wizarding world though because it often leads him to make perfectly rational observations about fairness and justice, where other wizards (like Ron) are too steeped in their casual bigotry to really think about. Like I'm glad the op mentioned the giants thing, because the scene when Harry and Ron find out Hagrid is half-giant is very telling of this dynamic. Ron is noticeably shaken at the reveal, while Harry's just like "dude, he's like 12 feet tall, why are you surprised?" along with maybe even the suggestion that Harry suspected this about Hagrid for a while.

It's also why Harry deciding to
bury Dobby
is so powerful. He never grew up in a culture where he learned to consider House-Elves beneath him, and unworthy of a proper burial. Griphook and the other humans' surprise at this only confirms it.

So, yeah. Never got the feeling Harry or the narrative disagreed with Hermione, other than that she was maybe being overzealous about it. She wasn't doing the cause any favors by trying to win over the Hogwarts House-Elves overnight - to them, freedom was an extreme and unknown. Even Dobby was only willing to take small steps towards freedom (Dumbledore offered him a higher wage and weekends free, but Dobby declined - it was the principle of getting paid for his work that mattered more to him) and didn't seem very enthusiastic about spreading the good news.
 
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Veelk

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,426
Yeah, I'm arguing against that.

I think making a lot of noise when you find out your society is built on slave work and when you point that out your best friends shudder and say "they like it" without questioning why they like it (how can you even be happy if you haven't tried any other reality or when for generations you are created to serve humans with no other purpose given?) is totally reasonable.

I think elfs saying they are happy doesn't make Hermione unreasonable. And I think Rowlins portrays most of the people as bigoted against the elfs (and Ron as an idiot). Hagrid kinda "both sides" it and you can argue that Rowlin wrote him as the "voice of reason" and that's problematic but I think Hermione's behaviour makes total sense and it's not exaggerated to paint her as hysterical or anything. Especially since the character is stubborn and over bearing from the first interaction with her so it's in character for them.
I would say that you would have you would have a lot of trouble finding evidence of this in the books themselves, but I think your talking about something slightly different than what I am. My focus is the framing the narration uses.

The nature of the narrative of Harry Potter is that if a character is something...anything, then the narration tries frames them as such. Voldemort isn't just evil because he does horrible things, but the narration emphasizes his evilness by framing even mundane actions with signifiers, like "He coldly laughed with no joy in his voice" and stuff like that. If Malfoy asks for pudding, he does it sneeringly, if Dumbledore asks for pudding, he does it with a calm dignity. And every time Hermione's elf thing is mentioned, it's treated as an unreasonable obsession by the narration, hence why I included all the interactions in the "SJW" section to show that the narration doesn't support her.

What your talking about is the fact that you fundamentally agree with the reasoning of Hermione, which I hope you see that I mostly agree with as well, but the narrative framing of Hermione mostly pins her as being unreasonable because, within the narrative, the elves really DO like the slavery, and Hermione is misunderstanding the issue by not understanding that they don't like the abuse certain masters give her. And just to be clear, this happens a lot in HP. In the first book, Harry winning the house cup is, according to the narrative, a moment of earned celebration, while I think Dumbledore is being a dick. Or how Rowling really wants Snape to be thought of as a tragic hero and has written him as such, but many people think he's still a git that happened to be on their side for his own selfish reasons.

So it's not that I disagree that the House-Elves are being treated like shit and need advocacy is an unreasonable position, but the narration itself doesn't really support that.

My take is that Harry (and the narrative) agrees with Hermione on the principle, he's just more practical about it. In other words, he'd rather keep his head down and struggle through wizard high school without getting caught up in any more social movements than he has to.

I like Harry's perspective as an outsider to the wizarding world though because it often leads him to make perfectly rational observations about fairness and justice, where other wizards (like Ron) are too steeped in their casual bigotry to really think about. Like I'm glad the op mentioned the giants thing, because the scene when Harry and Ron find out Hagrid is half-giant is very telling of this dynamic. Ron is noticeably shaken at the reveal, while Harry's just like "dude, he's like 12 feet tall, why are you surprised?" along with maybe even the suggestion that Harry suspected this about Hagrid for a while.

It's also why Harry deciding to
bury Dobby
is so powerful. He never grew up in a culture where he learned to consider House-Elves beneath him, and unworthy of a proper burial. Griphook and the other humans' surprise at this only confirms it.
Harry doesn't really say anything. It's possible he does, but in his mind, he simply has other problems to worry about.

The thing with Dobby is that, other than him being just considered a wierdo by House Elf standards, is that he has a personal connection to Harry that doesn't really apply to his entire species. Harry would (and did) take action to free him, but it's not the same for him to do to a complete stranger elf.

I'll say this much, the narration fully agrees that the abuse house elves endure is not okay. But the narration frames it as "Well, if the slave masters aren't dicks about it, then whats the problem?", which is of course where the issue becomes more iffy.

Veelk, I'm interested in what you have to say but your formatting is a turn off.
Really? Damn, I specifically am trying to use it to make it more readable.

Would it be better for it to be a giant wall of text with none of the spoiler formatting? Or should I just do it for the pictures?

I'd actually really like feedback on this.
 

The Kree

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,527
I read two thousand-word news article everyday, bro. A wall of text doesn't bother me so long and you use paragraphs. At least you're not inserting advertisements after every two paragraphs.
 
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Veelk

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,426
I read two thousand-word news article everyday, bro. A wall of text doesn't bother me so long and you use paragraphs. At least you're not inserting advertisements after every two paragraphs.
Well, your somewhat unique in that sense, because when I write a lengthy post, I get lucky if most people get past the first paragrah before replying. It's frustrating and I broke up the sections like this because I was trying to make it easier to read.

I'm really wishing Era had a Header function that functioned similarly to how I'm using the spoiler function, but without putting everything in this box. Instead, just have a collapsible section so readers can open sections of the posts at their own pace.
 

JeTmAn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,825
What's wrong with Jewish women who want to be sexy?


I'm also tired of the "SJW" shit. As for Harry Potter stuff ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I've never read the books. But this seems like a case of expecting more from a character that's a teenager even if she was the "grown up" one of the group.
SexIST
 

Sub Boss

Banned
Nov 14, 2017
13,441
I don't remember, does Harry take a side in this? You would think growing up a muggle, he would have at least a little understanding of what she's trying to do here.
He was the one that freed Dobby so he cares
, but he is not involved on Hermione's group/goal because voldemort/plot.
What happened to the elves at the end? I thought Hermione and Harry gave them rights through the ministry, even if it took time.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,900
Florida
I don't remember, does Harry take a side in this? You would think growing up a muggle, he would have at least a little understanding of what she's trying to do here.
He frees Dobby, but it was 1 part because Dobby helped him out and 1 part sticking it to the Malfoys.

I'm pretty sure he actually keeps Kreacher was his House Elf.
 
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Veelk

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,426
Harry is more or less a blank slate, he's super boring to read let alone root.
Yeah, for real, rereading them now, it's kind of amazing how little agency Harry displays in this book in particular. The plot of Goblet of Fire is really stupidly contrived on the whole, but Harry did almost nothing to actually push it himself. His presence and actions in the tournament are consistently the machinations of someone else in one way or another and rarely does he ever actually just take action himself.
 

Brakke

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,798
Hermione is 100% right and nobody gets a pass for ignoring her just because she gets a little heated about it.

Anyway, the whole earth knows that house elves are mistreated. Harry wins a lot of respect from Griphook when he treats Dobby as a person with the burial.

The interesting thing with Elf magic is it’s powered by personal loyalty. Elves can pull off miraculous feats in service to loyalty. They’re most effective when that loyalty is earned by someone treating them with respect. It presents an uncomfortable instrumentality though... “treat your elves better and benefit from their incredible power” produces a good result but “treat elves better because justice demands it” is the real thing.
 

Sub Boss

Banned
Nov 14, 2017
13,441
that they don't like the abuse certain masters give her. And just to be clear, this happens a lot in HP. In the first book, Harry winning the house cup is, according to the narrative, a moment of earned celebration, while I think Dumbledore is being a dick. Or how Rowling really wants Snape to be thought of as a tragic hero and has written him as such, but many people think he's still a git that happened to be on their side for his own selfish reasons.
Hey not every day first grade kids get to win over the most dangerous wizard in the world, it could have been a funeral instead.

Though i guess Dumbledore could give them special prizes/commemoration or something else
Edit: yes he set it up, still, they were the ones to beat voldemort yeah he should give them something else or at least both houses win
 
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PopQuiz

Member
Dec 11, 2017
2,255
Is there a root of the term “House-elf” and where Rowling might have taken it from?

Because recently someone said to me that it could be a play off of “House-Negro” and it blew my mind that I never made that connection. And then I cringed quite a bit.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,683
Well done op, good analysis.

I do think Hermione's patronizing or condescending attitude is just part of her personality, and not unique to just the plight of house elves. If we're taking the language of the alt-right, Hermione 'virtue signals' throughout most of the books, though she only does this likely because she comes from a place of disadvantage among other wizards.

Is there a root of the term “House-elf” and where Rowling might have taken it from?

Because recently someone said to me that it could be a play off of “House-Negro” and it blew my mind that I never made that connection. And then I cringed quite a bit.
Definitely linked. 'House' is used as a diminutive pejorative for any sort of servant "occupation," whether it's House Negro or even the more acceptable Housewife.
 

Pikachu

Traded his Bone Marrow for Pizza
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,295
I never understood why she stayed with the name spew; the chapter title house elf liberation front was infinitely cooler
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,696
Minneapolis
Harry doesn't really say anything. It's possible he does, but in his mind, he simply has other problems to worry about.

The thing with Dobby is that, other than him being just considered a wierdo by House Elf standards, is that he has a personal connection to Harry that doesn't really apply to his entire species. Harry would (and did) take action to free him, but it's not the same for him to do to a complete stranger elf.

I'll say this much, the narration fully agrees that the abuse house elves endure is not okay. But the narration frames it as "Well, if the slave masters aren't dicks about it, then whats the problem?", which is of course where the issue becomes more iffy.
I guess I just always take it that the narration is more or less reflective of Harry's own thoughts, unless explicitly stated otherwise.

He frees Dobby, but it was 1 part because Dobby helped him out and 1 part sticking it to the Malfoys.

I'm pretty sure he actually keeps Kreacher was his House Elf.
tbf Harry's first impulse is to release Kreacher (though not out of kindness), but only stops himself from doing so when Dumbledore points out that a free Kreacher would be a liability.

I guess we don't see what might happen after that, though.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
8,710
I suppose one could read that plotline as a parallel for how an Abolitionist would've felt around the late 1700's/early 1800's before people started really catching onto how fucked it was, but I don't think JK is that smart.
 

Deleted member 3815

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
6,633
Yeah, for real, rereading them now, it's kind of amazing how little agency Harry displays in this book in particular. The plot of Goblet of Fire is really stupidly contrived on the whole, but Harry did almost nothing to actually push it himself. His presence and actions in the tournament are consistently the machinations of someone else in one way or another and rarely does he ever actually just take action himself.
Yeah, Goblet was when I realised how bland Harry was and I started wishing that he would have a secret twin brother that was far more interesting.

It's was part of the reason why I drifted away from the series as for me an interesting and complex character is what keeps be engaged.

I suppose one could read that plotline as a parallel for how an Abolitionist would've felt around the late 1700's/early 1800's before people started really catching onto how fucked it was, but I don't think JK is that smart.
Hermione is just basically a self insert for Rowling. something that she openly admits.
 
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Veelk

Veelk

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Oct 25, 2017
9,426
I do think Hermione's patronizing or condescending attitude is just part of her personality, and not unique to just the plight of house elves. If we're taking the language of the alt-right, Hermione 'virtue signals' throughout most of the books, though she only does this likely because she comes from a place of disadvantage among other wizards.
This is also true. Hermione's identity is defined in many ways by her wanting to be a good person. Early, that manifests itself in being a rule abiding student, but as the books go on and she sees more serious shit, she loosens up around that subject.

The thing is, I found it wierd that she takes the issues of the House Elves so seriously when wizards marginalize most groups that aren't there own....including Muggles. Like, the Death Eaters are literally wizard supremists, but during the quidditch world cup, even the muggle loving wizards like Arthur Weasley see nothing wrong with repeatedly messing with a muggle's memory so they can have their stupid sports game in peace. And neither Harry nor Hermione question it. But again, that's the usual inconsistency with HP's worldbuilding.



On another note, I feel like doing another thread on Barty Crouch and how he is simultaneously the most competent death eater Voldy has while nevertheless pulling off what is arguably the dumbest plot of any harry potter book


Yeah, Goblet was when I realised how bland Harry was and I started wishing that he would have a secret twin brother that was far more interesting.

It's was part of the reason why I drifted away from the series as for me an interesting and complex character is what keeps be engaged.
This is partially intentional on Rowling's part. A big theme of the novels is that power inevitably corrupts those who seek it. Voldemort, Barty Crouch Sr, basically everyone that tries to actually rise and influence others ends up being a bastard. And it's made a special point that Dumbledore refuses to take the head of the ministry position because if he did, that power would corrupt him.

It's a theme I want to discuss in another thread later, but for the purposes of telling the story, Rowling wants to make Harry the most important, special boy in the world, while making it abudently clear that Harry never wants or tries to get all this attention. It's all just given to him, so you have him basically sitting on his ass while everything always comes to him.

As a result, he is responsible for almost nothing he accomplished in the tournament. Like, Moody was basically behind everything, but even discounting him, Hagrid decided to cheat and show him the dragons and Hermione helped him learn the summoning charm for his broom (which was given to him by Sirius), he was straight up given the solution to the second task by Dobby, and the last task was straight up rigged to make sure he got there first.
 
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