Hero (Dragon Quest) banned from the South Australian competitive Smash scene in controversial move

[lvl 99 Pixel]

If we're using "doesn't matter if it's low or avoidable if it can happen", then it is comparable.

Click to shrink...

A 1/9 gamble to convert a throw at low % is silly too but its not comparable to a gigantic RNG instakill hitbox that the player can choose to throw out almost instantaneously (that also hits under the edge), cancel, or swap to another move. "but what about this other thing that has rng" is just a slippery slope argument.
Its not even just about Thwack either, that's just one of many questionable scenarios that arise.

The other reason its not comparable is because it scales by %.
if this is accurate then:

Hit/Miss - Chance (dmg %)
190/200 - 95% chance (150%)
140/200 - 70% chance (130%)
108/200 - 54% chance (100%)
72/200 - 36% chance (50%)

meaning its a huge chance of killing at even low % compared to game and watch being a consistent 1/9 chance accross the board.
So tell me how that's comparable?

 

[NotLiquid]

A 1/9 gamble to convert a throw at low % is silly too but its not comparable to a gigantic RNG instakill hitbox that the player can choose to throw out almost instantaneously (that also hits under the edge), cancel, or swap to another move. "but what about this other thing that has rng" is just a slippery slope argument.
Its not even just about Thwack either, that's just one of many questionable scenarios that arise.

Click to shrink...

Thwack is hitbox active frame 23 on top of bringing out the selection. Judgement is hitbox active frame 16. Don't talk to me about slippery slopes when you're arguing from the perspective of "the only thing that matters is that it can happen". It's a dishonest, non-nuanced view of the character.

 

[cmChimera]

If we're using the slippery slope of "doesn't matter if it's low or avoidable if it can happen", then it is comparable.

Click to shrink...

Took the words out of my mouth.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Thwack is hitbox active frame 23 on top of bringing out the selection. Judgement is hitbox active frame 16. Don't talk to me about slippery slopes when you're arguing from the perspective of "the only thing that matters is that it can happen". It's a dishonest, non-nuanced view of the character.

Click to shrink...

A low range 1/9 throw conversion vs 35% chance to instakill at low % that can also anti air and edgeguard because of its absurd hitbox.
I don't know how that's even in the same discussion. Its one of many options Hero has that can cause stocks to disappear due to random chance of them appearing (or with smash attacks just as a random bonus you get to kill at low% for landing one)

FYI I also think Judgement is also terrible gimmick indicative of intentional anti competitive design that we just deal with, like many things. Watching Maister steal games from MKLeo with random chance was not a good look.

 

[Aaronrules380]

A low range 1/9 throw conversion vs 35% chance to instakill at low % that can also anti air and edgeguard because of its absurd hitbox.
I don't know how that's even in the same discussion. Its one of many options Hero has that can cause stocks to disappear due to random chance of them appearing (or with smash attacks just as a random bonus you get to kill at low% for landing one)

Click to shrink...

Thwack isn't a guaranteed kill even if you land though, so 35% is kind of a lie

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Thwack isn't a guaranteed kill even if you land though, so 35% is kind of a lie

Click to shrink...

What do you mean?

 

[NotLiquid]

A low range 1/9 throw conversion vs 35% chance to instakill at low % that can also anti air and edgeguard because of its absurd hitbox.
I don't know how that's even in the same discussion. Its one of many options Hero has that can cause stocks to disappear due to random chance of them appearing (or with smash attacks just as a random bonus you get to kill at low% for landing one)

Click to shrink...

My man, 36% chance to kill at 72% is some weak sauce shit. Hero can already kill you with a fully charged Kafrizz at that percent, and you already need to roll the command to begin with which makes a binary percentage rate a dishonest value.

 

[Aaronrules380]

What do you mean?

Click to shrink...

Doesn't Thwack have a chance to do pretty much nothing on hit, which lowers as the opponent's % rises? Like lets say at 30% damage it has a 50% chance to kill and a 50% chance to do nothing on hit, than that 35% chance is suddenly 17.5% chance at insta killing at that % and an equal chance of being a waste of resources. And that's assuming you even hit with it in the first place. And considering there are a few characters with way better ways of killing at very low percents that aren't random at all, it suddenly seems a lot less impressive.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Being required to memorize 21 different words for the one in a hundred chance that its actually useful is preposterous. If they become a common character then you will have to, but a native speaker is going to understand the 4 moves at a glance before the other person possibly can. These things happen almost instantly.

Click to shrink...

We call this learning the matchup.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

My man, 36% chance to kill at 72% is some weak sauce shit. Hero can already kill you with a fully charged Kafrizz at that percent, and you already need to roll the command to begin with which makes the binary percentage rate a dishonest value.

Click to shrink...

You're reading it wrong. That's 72 out of 200 attempts killed at 50% damage, with a move also that's big enough to cover edge (though other moves like Magic Burst are obviously a guarantee instead of a gamble). Its a much higher chance of killing than Judgement.

We call this learning the matchup.

Click to shrink...

lol

 

[Aaronrules380]

You're reading it wrong. That's 72 out of 200 attempts killed at 50% damage, with a move also that's big enough to cover edge (though other moves like Magic Burst are obviously a guarantee instead of a gamble). Its a much higher chance of killing than Judgement.



lol

Click to shrink...

Oh, it was 35% chance that you'd get the instakill, not that you'd find thwack on the menu. So you need to find thwack on the menu while they're at low %, hit with it, and then get lucky and actually score a kill. That's really not that impressive, and other characters have more reliable methods of low% kills and aren't banned

 

[cmChimera]

You're reading it wrong. That's 72 out of 200 attempts killed at 50% damage, with a move also that's big enough to cover edge (though other moves like Magic Burst are obviously a guarantee instead of a gamble). Its a much higher chance of killing than Judgement.

Click to shrink...

I thought Thwack killed every time it connected. The fact that it doesn't makes this even less of a worthwhile argument to me. It'd be easier to list the characters that don't have some way to kill you at 50% than the ones that don't.

Oh, it was 35% chance that you'd get the instakill, not that you'd find thwack on the menu. So you need to find thwack on the menu while they're at low %, hit with it, and then get lucky and actually score a kill. That's really not that impressive, and other characters have more reliable methods of low% kills and aren't banned

Click to shrink...

This.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Oh, it was 35% chance that you'd get the instakill, not that you'd find thwack on the menu. So you need to find thwack on the menu while they're at low %, hit with it, and then get lucky and actually score a kill. That's really not that impressive, and other characters have more reliable methods of low% kills and aren't banned

Click to shrink...

Yeah, its a good thing Hero has a lot of good options and you can cancel the menu very quickly. The argument was never that any of this was reliable or consistent, more that the potential for absurdity is far and away unprecedented for a game that's already heavily customized to be played competitively. I didn't even agree with the SA Ban, but people are saying "wait and see", well, as demonstrated with whats happening in tournaments this kind of thing might become a problem.

I thought Thwack killed every time it connected. The fact that it doesn't makes this even less of a worthwhile argument to me. It'd be easier to list the characters that don't have some way to kill you at 50% than the ones that don't.

This.

Click to shrink...

Which other moves in the game other than Magic Burst, Kamikazee, and Thwack can kill at low (or 0) and have hitboxes large enough to edgeguard?

 

[cmChimera]

Yeah, its a good thing Hero has a lot of good options and you can cancel the menu very quickly. The argument was never that any of this was reliable or consistent, more that the potential for absurdity is far and away unprecedented for a game that's already heavily customized to be played competitively. I didn't even agree with the SA Ban, but people are saying "wait and see", well, as demonstrated with whats happening in tournaments this kind of thing might become a problem.

Click to shrink...

"absurdity"

 

[Robotoboy]

Learning flash cards at an attempt to understand moves on a character you're likely not even going to run into in bracket in a region you're not even native to?
That's an unprecedented level of preparation for an individual character in this game by a wide margin.

You know something is very wrong if you're required to learn written language to the point of comprehending and responding to 20 words at a glance just for the small chance of being upset in R1 Pools by jank...

Click to shrink...

I've taken Japanese classes. Hell I've studied vocab on my own. You're making a big deal out of nothing. It would take a week tops to memorize those words. If you're determined to go to another country where they don't speak your language, that's on you. It's the same with controller mapping. Nothing is wrong if you're going to an entirely different country with an entirely different language to compete with said native residents, and speakers.

 

[cmChimera]

Which other moves in the game other than Magic Burst, Kamikazee, and Thwack can kill at low (or 0) and have hitboxes large enough to edgeguard?

Click to shrink...

Marth's down-air.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Yeah, its a good thing Hero has a lot of good options and you can cancel the menu very quickly. The argument was never that any of this was reliable or consistent, more that the potential for absurdity is far and away unprecedented for a game that's already heavily customized to be played competitively. I didn't even agree with the SA Ban, but people are saying "wait and see", well, as demonstrated with whats happening in tournaments this kind of thing might become a problem.



Which other moves in the game other than Magic Burst, Kamikazee, and Thwack can kill at low (or 0) and have hitboxes large enough to edgeguard?

Click to shrink...

I don't think you can say it's an issue based on random locals where we don't even have an idea who was the best player going in. The only way to determine if this is actually ban worthy is if it makes Hero players get significantly more upsets, and bigger upsets at that

Also doesn't Kamikazee cost you a stock as well and is thus fundementally a bad decision to use when you aren't already winning?

 

[FSLink]

I've taken Japanese classes. Hell I've studied vocab on my own. You're making a big deal out of nothing. It would take a week tops to memorize those words. If you're determined to go to another country where they don't speak your language, that's on you. It's the same with controller mapping. Nothing is wrong if you're going to an entirely different country with an entirely different language to compete with said native residents, and speakers.

Click to shrink...

Yep. I've played on Japanese setups in Smash Wii U and you bet I memorized what stuff was for button config since my controls weren't the default. I don't see this as a problem at all.


I agree that anybody dedicated enough to travel internationally in a game that doesn't pay well is probably dedicated enough to learn a few vocab words.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Let me make this clear: I don't think randomness should be banworthy if it can't cause important upsets to happen with the consistency that it matters at all. Even if it can win 1 game against a much better player on rare occasions, that doesn't matter if it's rare enough that doesn't actually win sets let alone tournaments without a great player helming it

 

[NotLiquid]

Thwack appearance rate: 11.72%
Command Menu FAF: 20
Thwack Hitbox Active: 23

Basically, you need to not only have really good luck to roll Thwack, you're looking at minimum for roughly a second of space to be able to utilize it, moreso if you're looking to re-roll (it does make Thwack more likely to appear in a subsequent roll because the four previous options don't show back up again, but that basically only applies for the first roll and is still going to shave some good time).

Comparing G&W's Judge - particularly as some kind of lesser option over Thwack's kill percentage rates - is only a dishonest thing as far as it being severely understated how bad of a situation you need to find yourself in to get hit by it.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Marth's down-air.

Click to shrink...

Marths dair is a fair edgeguard tool like many characters have, not something that can kill on stage at low%
The reason meteors/spikes are a great mechanic is because they require timing a fairly sized hitbox (pre nerf Ivysaurs version was a bit busted). Especially Marth who needs to hit with the tip of his sword. There is no skill in sitting anywhere near the edge and pressing a button to activate something like Magic Burst which covers a huge area and stays out for a long time.

Thwack appearance rate: 11.72%
Command Menu FAF: 20
Thwack Hitbox Active: 23

Basically, you need to not only have really good luck to roll Thwack, you're looking at minimum for roughly a second of space to be able to utilize it, moreso if you're looking to re-roll (it does make Thwack more likely to appear in a subsequent roll because the four previous options don't show back up again, but that basically only applies for the first roll and is still going to shave some good time).

Comparing G&W's Judge - particularly as some kind of lesser option over Thwack's kill percentage rates - is only a dishonest thing as far as it being severely understated how bad of a situation you need to find yourself in to get hit by it.

Click to shrink...

Don't know how many times it has to be reiterated that its not a consistency problem.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Thwack appearance rate: 11.72%
Command Menu FAF: 20
Thwack Hitbox Active: 23

Basically, you need to not only have really good luck to roll Thwack, you're looking at minimum for roughly a second of space to be able to utilize it, moreso if you're looking to re-roll (it does make Thwack more likely to appear in a subsequent roll because the four previous options don't show back up again, but that basically only applies for the first roll and is still going to shave some good time).

Comparing G&W's Judge as some kind of lesser option over the kill percentage rates is only a dishonest thing as far as it being severely overstated how bad of a situation you need to find yourself in to get hit by it.

Click to shrink...

Ignoring the percent chance for thwack to actually achieve anything seems really disingenuous.

 

[cmChimera]

Marths dair is a fair edgeguard tool like many characters have, not something that can kill on stage at low%
The reason meteors/spikes are a great mechanic is because they require timing a fairly sized hitbox (pre nerf Ivysaurs version was a bit busted). Especially Marth who needs to hit with the tip of his sword. There is no skill in sitting anywhere near the edge and pressing a button to activate something like Magic Burst which covers a huge area and stays out for a long time.

Click to shrink...

Are we just going to ignore consistency and reliability of moves? Hero was WAY better options than fishing for magic burst. Cool if you get it on a roll, but chances are you won't, and now you're opponent is on the ledge.

 

[Deleted member 198]

If you have to make the argument of "make flashcards to learn these specific Japanese kanji for this fighting game"
You should be aware enough that your argument is full of shit

 

[Aaronrules380]

Are we just going to ignore consistency and reliability of moves? Hero was WAY better options than fishing for magic burst. Cool if you get it on a roll, but chances are you won't, and now you're opponent is on the ledge.

Click to shrink...

Yep. I feel like players who try to cheese out wins with Hero are more likely going to lose because of it unless they're ALREADY BETTER THAN THEIR OPPONENT at which point it doesn't even matter. ANd even in the case where it wins you a single game, if you actually feel the need to rely on cheese to win a game you're probably still losing the set

 

[NotLiquid]

Don't know how many times it has to be reiterated that its not a consistency problem.

Click to shrink...

If we're back to the argument of "but it can happen" without acknowledging context then there's literally nothing to discuss, especially since you're making all these exceptions for why G&W's RNG is okay but Hero's isn't.

 

[DR2K]

There's nothing logical about banning a character that has a random element. Majority of the character is fundamental, consistent, and adheres to the core mechanics of the game. Is random select banned, lol?

Just ironic that the heart of the game itself is just one big RNG party game where you have to strip almost every major mechanic, stage, or idea to get to the fighting game portion of it.

 

[Poltergust]

Yeah, its a good thing Hero has a lot of good options

Click to shrink...

Uh, that is really debatable, even if you're taking his other down-B spells into context.

Heck, the only other moves that can cover the kind of space that Thwack can are Kamikazee and Magic Burst, both also extremely rare moves to find and very cost-heavy (not to mention easy to react to in neutral).

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

If we're back to the argument of "but it can happen" without acknowledging context then there's literally nothing to discuss, especially since you're making all these exceptions for why G&W's RNG is okay but Hero's isn't.

Click to shrink...

I said Judgement is also a shit mechanic for competitive play, its just not nearly as questionable.

 

[JCHandsom]

Rule #1 of listening to Leffen:

Never listen to Leffen.

Click to shrink...

Perfect first post

 

[FSLink]

If you have to make the argument of "make flashcards to learn these specific Japanese kanji for this fighting game"
You should be aware enough that your argument is full of shit

Click to shrink...

How is it any different than memorizing a bunch of other random shit in a game with 70+ characters?

 

[Robotoboy]

If you have to make the argument of "make flashcards to learn these specific Japanese kanji for this fighting game"
You should be aware enough that your argument is full of shit

Click to shrink...

It's not Kanji, it's Hiragana and Katakana. Their basic alphabet. Nothing in the menu is listed in Kanji I believe. Yes if you're making the effort to fly to a country where they don't speak or write in your language and alphabet, to compete... you need to learn some of their language to not only get around, but to participate in their events. This isn't hard. What you said was quite ignorant. All said, Japan doesn't even have cash tournaments, so I don't think many will be traveling there just to compete in their events.

 

[Robotoboy]

There's nothing logical about banning a character that has a random element. Majority of the character is fundamental, consistent, and adheres to the core mechanics of the game. Is random select banned, lol?

Just ironic that the heart of the game itself is just one big RNG party game where you have to strip almost every major mechanic, stage, or idea to get to the fighting game portion of it.

Click to shrink...

This has always been the predicament of smash being taken seriously. It's similar to Smogon with pokemon. The players have to neuter the hell out of the game to make it competitive on any level worth their satisfaction. Other fighting games don't have these issues. The closest was the beach level in SFV obscuring bananas and stuff from Birdie so it got banned. Also maybe a few boss characters in the 90's games being OP af.

Smash is doomed to a fate of...

 

[Terraforce]

Doesn't matter that its low or "avoidable". The point is it can happen.
Many things are avoidable in hindsight, especially with tournament nerves and spaghetti being a thing, but those things can't result in an instant kill at 0 via a monstrous hitbox.

Click to shrink...

Yeah that's what people aren't getting. Of course it's low. But not only is it possible, he has multiple options that pave way for that "unlikely kill" happening.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Smash is doomed to a fate of...

Click to shrink...

The rules for what is or isn't legal are pretty well defined at this point for Smash (though there used to be a whole lot of disagreement in the old times), and most of the rules for Ultimate were decided fairly early and stuck.

When you start introducing characters that are more reminiscent of the wacky items and modes and designed for casual hijinks then of course this is the very first instance of a character being banned or even considered to be banned for reasons outside of how good they are.

 

[DR2K]

The rules for what is or isn't legal are pretty well defined at this point for Smash (though there used to be a whole lot of disagreement in the old times), and most of the rules for Ultimate were decided fairly early and stuck.

When you start introducing characters that are more reminiscent of the wacky items and modes and designed for casual hijinks then of course this is the very first instance of a character being banned or even considered to be banned for reasons outside of how good they are.

Click to shrink...

Yeah but like Peach should have been banned since melee for this to be precedent. I totally meant to pull out that bomb omb and mr Saturn. Wink wink

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Yeah but like Peach should have been banned since melee for this to be precedent. I totally meant to pull out that bomb omb and mr Saturn. Wink wink

Click to shrink...

You mean the 1/300 chance item pulls? they have caused disruptive things to happen, but its still 1/300 chance to pull an item that then has to be used effectively, and even then they're still not guaranteed KOs.

 

[Horohorohoro]

I said Judgement is also a shit mechanic for competitive play, its just not nearly as questionable.

Click to shrink...

Then ban G&W. If RNG is bad, ALL RNG should be banned, not just what random figures in the community deem "too much" RNG, because that standard will be different for different people.

 

[Aaronrules380]

You mean the 1/300 chance item pulls? they have caused disruptive things to happen, but its still 1/300 chance to pull an item that then has to be used effectively, and even then they're still not guaranteed KOs.

Click to shrink...

I'd argue whether a KO Is guaranteed isn't actually important, because a single KO won't win you a set. What matters isn't if it can net you a rare KO, it's whether it's realistically likely for Hero's random elements to result in changes to the tournament's actual results. As such these things don't matter
1. A good player beats a worse player due to random elements
2. A bad player wins a single game against a good player due to random elements
3. A bad player beats another bad player due to abusing random elements.

There's definitely reasons to ban Hero if he's resulting in major upsets due to the random jank even if he isn't winning tournaments with it, but unless the randomness is playing a major deciding role in the tournament results like knocking a top player to losers or deciding an important game, I don't think it's ban worthy at all

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

I'd argue whether a KO Is guaranteed isn't actually important, because a single KO won't win you a set. What matters isn't if it can net you a rare KO, it's whether it's realistically likely for Hero's random elements to result in changes to the tournament's actual results. As such these things don't matter
1. A good player beats a worse player due to random elements
2. A bad player wins a single game against a good player due to random elements
3. A bad player beats another bad player due to abusing random elements.

There's definitely reasons to ban Hero if he's resulting in major upsets due to the random jank even if he isn't winning tournaments with it, but unless the randomness is playing a major deciding role in the tournament results like knocking a top player to losers or deciding an important game, I don't think it's ban worthy at all

Click to shrink...

We'll see I guess. There's already been enough of an impact for an early ban in a smaller region, as well as a few good players who think hes a problem. The fact that its even being debated is evidence enough that this is new territory. Even the staunch defenders like dabuz offer a bunch of nonsensical arguments, like the guy doesn't even know shit about Blazblue or Guilty Gear (or other fighting games in general) but is using characters as examples of "good rng" because someone else told him so.

I've been following competitive smash since 64, and most of the debate around this character and im still leaning on maybe. One of the better Canadian players im talking to in DM's right now says this , and ive seen the sentiment from a fair few others.

One of the funnier comparisons was "imagine if one of the items peach could pull was a blastzone"

 

[Notaskwid]

 

[Aaronrules380]

We'll see I guess. There's already been enough of an impact for an early ban in a smaller region, as well as a few good players who think hes a problem. The fact that its even being debated is evidence enough that this is new territory. Even the staunch defenders like dabuz offer a bunch of nonsensical arguments, like the guy doesn't even know shit about Blazblue or Guilty Gear (or other fighting games in general) but is using characters as examples of "good rng" because someone else told him so.

I've been following competitive smash since 64, and most of the debate around this character and im still leaning on maybe. One of the better Canadian players im talking to in DM's right now says this , and ive seen the sentiment from a fair few others.

One of the funnier comparisons was "imagine if one of the items peach could pull was a blastzone"

Click to shrink...

I think it makes sense that good players are going to be paranoid even if it's not a problem because they don't want to risk being knocked to losers or knocked out of a tournament they could earn money from on chance, even if that's super unlikely to occur. Good players have a ton of reasons to be more conservative than may actually be merited

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

I think it makes sense that good players are going to be paranoid even if it's not a problem because they don't want to risk being knocked to losers or knocked out of a tournament they could earn money from on chance, even if that's super unlikely to occur. Good players have a ton of reasons to be more conservative than may actually be merited

Click to shrink...

I think its unlikely that players are that way because they care about money. This is one of the most notoriously underpaid esports out there, tournaments are run at a loss, and people travel the world even if theres no chance of profiting because they love competing more than anything.

When people shitpost with like "typical smash players hate fun" its like...these people find competitive Smash fun to the point where they're travelling the world or making it their career despite the pitiful monetary incentive.

 

[Aaronrules380]

I think its unlikely that players are that way because they care about money. This is one of the most notoriously underpaid esports out there, tournaments are run at a loss, and people travel the world even if theres no chance of profiting because they love competing more than anything.

When people shitpost with like "typical smash players hate fun" its like...these people find competitive Smash fun to the point where they're travelling the world or making it their career despite the pitiful monetary incentive.

Click to shrink...

obviously, but they have more to lose if they're fears are correct, so they have more reasons to be paranoid

 

[The Last Laugh]

There is a weird thing I have noticed in the FGC (possibly other eports but I can not say) that they love their numbers. This move does x damage, this move is this many frames, this hitbox ends exactly here.
SonicFox had a poll up a week back or so about the recovery mechanic is MK11 because there is a nuance that some do not know about and he only found out a week before EVO that can have someone survive or die by the same Fatal Blow depending on how many "skulls" or "shields" you get and he was of the notion that NRS should make you able to turn off that randomness. I personally love a random aspect in FGC competition because it can make for a big moment (though at the same time I hate comeback mechanics) but a large number agreed with him.

SO I can see why some would hate the mechanic on Hero but I love it.

 

[Metal Slugger]

too srs for RNG, showers, sex

this ain't no game

 

[Hero]

Don't worry, I'm banning Australia.

 

[Sander VF]

Again, didn't Leffen himself blow out Salem's hero at Smash Con? Salem had the momentum in his favor with Snake, but then switched to Hero to style on Leffen (it seems it was some kinda grudge match), only to get destroyed.

Yeah, Leffen's opponent sabotaged himself by switching to a character that is supposed to be so broken, it warrants a ban.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Again, didn't Leffen himself blow out Salem's hero at Smash Con? Salem had the momentum in his favor with Snake, but then switched to Hero to style on Leffen (it seems it was some kinda grudge match), only to get destroyed.

Yeah, Leffen's opponent sabotaged himself by switching to a character that is supposed to be so broken, it warrants a ban.

Click to shrink...

Had the momentum? Salems Snake was about to get 2-0'd. He was on high % while Ivysaur was low. He clawed back that last stock and tried to sandbag the third game because he didn't want to lose with a main and decided to meme instead (and still tossed his controlled like a baby when he lost). That idiot deserved what he got.

too srs for RNG, showers, sex

this ain't no game

Click to shrink...

Did you accidentally think you were posting on Reddit or?

 

[Sander VF]

Had the momentum? Salems Snake was about to get 2-0'd. He was on high % while Ivysaur was low. He clawed back that last stock and tried to sandbag the third game because he didn't want to lose with a main and decided to meme instead (and still tossed his controlled like a baby when he lost). That idiot deserved what he got.

Click to shrink...

Sorry, my recollection must have been jumbled by the fact that Salem won a stock before switching to Hero. This caused me to misremember them being even before the switch.

And yes, Salem looks like an asshole.

But my point still stands. Leffen blew a Hero out against an opponent around his skill level. I don't believe Hero is a proven factor at a competative level.