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Hero (Dragon Quest) banned from the South Australian competitive Smash scene in controversial move
- Thread starter Dreamboum
- Start date
Hes also a brand new character so I don't think its a good representation of what the character can do. Like I posted before the player ranked 27th in the world is on a mission to prove a point so we'll see how that goes, including the grand finals of their last local being a Hero ditto that ended in a 0% thwack.
I'm all for competitive play. I'm all for banning items and ridiculous stages.
But come on guys.
Even in football (soccer) where there is millions of pounds and millions of fans involved, there's no "loser's bracket" so people dont complain about getting someone difficult and going out straight away. Teams prepare for a whole year and go out to one game! I absolutely hate a final in Smash where it's winners bracket vs losers bracket. A final should be a final where winner takes it.
Big deal if Hero has his commands in another language. Suck it up and deal with it. Again in sport there's something called a home advantage. Dozens of people travel every week for a team to play on a pitch with a different terrain, different atmosphere, weather conditions, referee etc etc. Do we really want everything to be so "fair"?! If the players know multiple languages they can communicate in that language, and others won't understand them. It's called having an advantage.
And banning characters? Really? Get out of here. RNG or not it can be balanced. All it takes is for a character to be weakened overall so the RNG balances things out. And Hero hasn't even proven itself to be overpowered yet.
"But I lost to a critical hit". Suck it up. In professional sports people lose to a bad referee decision all the time, and there's so much more at stake. And the reason he (should) have that critical hit is because his moves are slightly weaker otherwise. If not, yes, he should be balanced.
Sometimes I wonder why some of the Smash community doesn't just take up arm wrestling, or chess.
But come on guys.
Even in football (soccer) where there is millions of pounds and millions of fans involved, there's no "loser's bracket" so people dont complain about getting someone difficult and going out straight away. Teams prepare for a whole year and go out to one game! I absolutely hate a final in Smash where it's winners bracket vs losers bracket. A final should be a final where winner takes it.
Big deal if Hero has his commands in another language. Suck it up and deal with it. Again in sport there's something called a home advantage. Dozens of people travel every week for a team to play on a pitch with a different terrain, different atmosphere, weather conditions, referee etc etc. Do we really want everything to be so "fair"?! If the players know multiple languages they can communicate in that language, and others won't understand them. It's called having an advantage.
And banning characters? Really? Get out of here. RNG or not it can be balanced. All it takes is for a character to be weakened overall so the RNG balances things out. And Hero hasn't even proven itself to be overpowered yet.
"But I lost to a critical hit". Suck it up. In professional sports people lose to a bad referee decision all the time, and there's so much more at stake. And the reason he (should) have that critical hit is because his moves are slightly weaker otherwise. If not, yes, he should be balanced.
Sometimes I wonder why some of the Smash community doesn't just take up arm wrestling, or chess.
If he gets proven to be game-breaking, even after a bit of patching, then sure, but until then this ban is premature.
I agree 100%
just disagree with everyone scoffing at the possibility. Have to wonder if the "in sports" comparisons are copy pasta or serious sometimes.
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That mechanics not really random though, you just tap an attack button in time with the attacks in the fatal blow, you can practise it, its the same timings for both players.
Not sure how Sonicfox didn't realise it, did he never wonder what the skulls and shields were on screen? The mortal kombat subreddit had posts pretty often mentioning it. Even then the damage difference isn't huge but yup still enough to turn a very close to death scenario into a win.
On topic though I think Hero's ok.
Everything I'm saying comes from the perspective of a foreign language student and someone who has to work in both English and Japanese as his job.
All of these arguments completely ignore the point I was making. Unlike any other aspect in Smash, you can practice memorizing the spell names as long as you want, and there's an almost 0% chance that you'll be better at the thing you were practicing than your opponent if they're native in the language. They have 20+ years of experience that you don't. That's the main issue, and the issue is made worse when you consider two points: every frame is important, and the one maining Hero might be your opponent, not you.
If you think that's fine, that's your opinion, but if you're ignoring that point, than your argument is incomplete. You gotta at least mention it.
Like this person's post:
While I may not agree, I can see that the advantage has been acknowledged, and the opinion of this poster is "oh well, get over it" lol
The menu spells do include kanji, actually. Not many, but it's not only hiragana and katakana.
Edit: I double checked. It's just one actually. To be fair though, kanji can be easier to remember sometimes, and in this case, seeing 斬り will tell the player the attack is a slash. Pretty convenient!
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This is the equivalent of PAL Melee players having to adapt to NTSC Melee when they come over for EVO because of the differences in knockback and damage Nintendo implemented when iterating on the game. Surprise, European players often have NTSC setups precisely to practice for when they have to compete across the Atlantic. Learning to adapt is part of being competitive.
Again, learn your matchups.
I'm just gonna assume this means you don't mind the inherent advantage of being a native speaker. I would never equate trying to read a language as fast as a native speaker to "learning a matchup."
Honestly, it might not end up being that big of a deal if the person who said most countries play in English is to be believed. But with Evo having so many Japanese players and 3 of them in the top 8, the clear disadvantage is not something that should be ignored, in my opinion.
So what do we do about football players from Latin America, Africa, or Asia, who then get contracted by big European clubs? Do you think they have translators accompany them during training sessions or even football matches themselves? Do you think referees are trained to communicate with them in their respective native languages? Of course not, those players have to learn the language of the country they are going to, or at least basic English for international matches.
Part of being a professional is accomodating to the environment you are working with. Smash players want to be treated like a serious eSport, but still want to be babied when stuff gets too hard for them. It's ridiculous.
I don't really think it's an issue because it's something you can train for even if it's difficult for some people.
And like someone pointed out earlier, you could just memorize the MP values.
lol yea
DotA's TI should be running all random, mid only.
Rocket League should be played on Rumble Mode
CS:GO should be played on Gun Game on custom maps
but they wont because they're against fun, and they're cowards!
No, that's a terrible idea.
I sincerely hope this post is sarcasm, considering how the last time Nintendo hosted an online event with items on and bad stages they got universally derided.
Hell nah it's not sarcasm. Smash is at its best when you got to contend with giant ass mallets, lightsabers, and Airwing carpet bombings in the middle of a combo.
You're welcome to prefer playing that way but it's a useless format for any kind of serious competition.
OK, that's fine and all, but that sort of stuff has no place in serious competitions.
Heck, even if you were to have it your way, basically no one would attend events with such a chaotic ruleset. What would even be the point?
Hmm, I can't say I know much about that situation, but it doesn't sound like an equivalent comparison to me. These players are entering a completely different environment as their permanent job where they're constantly surrounded by a different language, right? So it'd be more like Zero or MKLeo becoming a professional Smash player in the US.
This Hero thing seems more like if the professional sports league introduced an aspect of the game that's harder to deal with when players go play in a country that's different than the one they're a professional in. Now, that might be a thing already, I'm not sure. I just think that would be a more apt comparison.
I wouldn't agree with it not being an issue, but I think it's fair to be of that opinion.
And I responded to that post about MP values. That's not a viable strategy because you have to highlight the skill to see the MP value first, it's not always displayed.
Cool. Start your own events then. There's plenty of other side events that allow that sort of thing too.
Fair, but I do think it's not unreasonable to have people memorize a few characters of the spells. You only need to recognize it at a glance, not necessarily be able to read the whole thing every time if that makes sense.
I just think if you're dedicated enough to travel internationally in a game that pays little money, I think they would be willing to put in the time.
Yeah, what you're saying makes sense, and in fact, having shortcuts to understand the spells would probably be ideal. My point is that a player can "put in the time," but no matter how much time they give it, they're still probably going to be worse at reading the spells than their opponent if the game isn't in the player's native language.
Speed reading ability, possibly in multiple languages, has never been a skill tested in fighting games (as far as I know), so it's worth discussing whether it has a negative effect on competition.
Some players in traditional fighting games have more difficulties doing controller motions on the left side of the screen or vice versa while others don't. It can be a difficult thing to overcome muscle memory if you're naturally better at one side than the other.
I just think at a certain point in competition, if you have weaknesses, it's up to the competitor to overcome them. It's not too much of a deal since I don't expect Hero to be a huge threat in the meta, but it's an interesting topic for sure.
Okay, so after seeing what more people had to say about Hero, I've come around to agreeing with the ban on Hero
Look at this:
He gets a kill at 25% and the menu was open for literally a split-second. Nobody, not even the guy playing Hero had time to read it, he just picked the first option and hoped that it would do something beneficial for him.
Of course, there's no way to pull this off consistently, but that's part of the problem. There's no way to react to this, or any means of countering it. You can't predict what your opponent is going to do because even they don't always know what's going to happen, you just have to cross your fingers and hope that the dice roll doesn't screw you over, and I don't think that has any place in a competitive game.
Look at this:
He gets a kill at 25% and the menu was open for literally a split-second. Nobody, not even the guy playing Hero had time to read it, he just picked the first option and hoped that it would do something beneficial for him.
Of course, there's no way to pull this off consistently, but that's part of the problem. There's no way to react to this, or any means of countering it. You can't predict what your opponent is going to do because even they don't always know what's going to happen, you just have to cross your fingers and hope that the dice roll doesn't screw you over, and I don't think that has any place in a competitive game.
So ok, apparently you fuckers will not shut up about this to the point where you will all harrass a person in real life up to and including throwing food, dirt, and drinks in my face for asking to play as him. How do you suggest we "fix" the character for him to not be bannable? Or will I just have to "suck it up" whenever I dare try and enjoy a game?
MVD's clip that was posted is far more egregious imo
*dice roll* almost lands Thwack
*dice roll* Mushroom into dead at 39% at ledge
*dice roll* Thwack, dies at 30%
Smash crits are def questionable too
Dsmash is a decent enough whiff punish coming out at frame 9, by far his fastest smash, and killing at 47 mid stage is really silly (though that looked like it still would have killed earlier)
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Hero isn't getting banned/discussed because he's OP. Stop using that as a reason to mock smashers, because that's not what is being argued.
I don't agree on an immediate ban. Let him free for a few weeks/months, then let's discuss his place on the meta and if he should be banned.
I don't agree on an immediate ban. Let him free for a few weeks/months, then let's discuss his place on the meta and if he should be banned.
Keef missing the point, and he agrees with the language barrier problem so people are just cherry picking specific parts of someones opinion that lines up with their own even if they're mostly known for being a comedy Youtuber.
Ah but cherry picking a random Twitter clip now that is totally okay
There are plenty of clips from good players that demonstrate the types of issues being discussed. Supporting evidence is not cherry picking.
The problem is that you also that you cherry picked as well.
The best scenario is clearly letting things play out. Not jump the gun and assume whats going to happen
And if I bring out supporting evidence of Twitter clips where Hero fucks up that's not evidence but cherry picking I guess, so long as it's convenient right?
I don't think anyone is scoffing at the chance it could happen in the future, we're criticizing the decision to jump the gun before we even have enough data to make a conclusion
Thats redundant because nobody is saying Hero is OP or Consistent. Showing clips where Hero fucks up is not arguing against the POV that Hero is all over the place.
Thats fine, and ive said multiple times its premature (there are definitely people here saying 100% no never ban). But theres no denying theres already good examples of games being utterly broken by RNG in a way not so different from having items on.
Clips without context are literally the most useless and dumb type of anecdotal evidence
What type of context would be sufficient for you? They have been explained as scenarios that took place in tournament matches between good players.
What type of record do the players have against each other or other players in the scene? Saying both are "good players" is meaningless because there are plenty of "good players" who could face a player like MKLeo and be bodied every single time. Just because both are good doesn't mean there wasn't already a skill gap.
Did the Hero player win the set because of cheese? Being able to steal a game on rare occasions is meaningless if they couldn't win the set with such strats, because winning one game in a tournament means literally nothing
Would the Hero player have definitely lost the set if not for the cheese?
Calling clips the dumbest evidence and then invoking the top ranked player being able to body someone? um...
I already quoted Puppeh debunking the fools who claiming the people losing were nobodies. You can watch said interactions and decide for yourself if they're appropriate or fair in a competitive setting, and imo fuck no they're not.
My point is that their anecdotal and lack context. MKLeo can body most "good players" with Joker but you can't take a clip of MKLeo bodying someone and use it to argue Joker is broken with no other evidence and not expect to be laughed at as a scrub. And again, did they lose the set to shenanigans, or just a single game?
Im amazed you still think this is about winning or losing when from the beginning its been about whether or not severe RNG is healthy for a competitive setting. Doesn't matter if someone wins only a game or two when the problem is they're taking stocks at all through pure random chance.
I have no doubt MVD and Puppeh would have still won without mucking around with Hocus Pocus and Thwack (though that clip he also had Magic Burst up which was a guaranteed kill instead). Thats not the point.
See this is the big problem. Who is gonna collect that kind of data over the course of X months and come to a decision? Is there actually any sensible, organized effort being made on this front? Or is it all just twitter clips and arguments. It's an interesting issue that other communities don't have to deal with. Would be nice to see major members of the community actually make an organized attempt at solving this issue. But at the same time, that's not any one person or groups job, so. : /
Uh...yes? Are you not familiar with professional sports? Teams and groups will often have professional translators because it's absurd to expect someone to instantly be able to communicate in an entirely different language?
Like are you really making a point like this while knowing nothing about the professional world?
it was a nonsense comparison to begin with because football doesn't require players to be reading a different language to be able to understand whats happening on the field.
I still don't understand why anyone should care about losing a stock or two to RNG if Hero isn't consistently winning matches because of it.