Pikachu being able to kill with skullbash at 40% was never going to be OK
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Hero (Dragon Quest) banned from the South Australian competitive Smash scene in controversial move
- Thread starter Dreamboum
- Start date
Pikachu being able to kill with skullbash at 40% was never going to be OK
Probably would have been fine in a meta with Cloud and Bayo. Worst case scenario they could have just banned that custom.
But nah, gotta ban them all.
I like lame patient play. God forbid people have to slow down the pace of a match to deal with a matchup.
Plus it's pretty interesting you say that when most agree that Hero has issues with rushdown.
If we're gonna get into the discussion about what's "interesting" to justify his ban then we're opening up a whole other slippery slope that's not going to end well for people who keep arguing that people defending Hero are being flippant.
No,to ban a character the community that runs the game has to agree that the character does not present the scene with degenerated and/or toxic choices. The discussion is not if hero is too op, is at what line we defind how much RNG is too much. And that "arbitrary line" you say between peach/game&watch already exists, if it didnt we woud allow items to be on. I can't believe i even have to explain this.
its not like that was the only one ie. DK's custom
They were poorly balanced and even more poorly implemented in every other way
The Smash scene is no stranger to banning high variance or busted elements and characters, either. Whether its stages, rules and items, to a temporary ban on Brawls MK, to Bayonetta being banned in a region, to Wobbling being banned and implementing a rule to prevent ledge stalling or even a ban on Hero in South Australia which is the current debate. Its often up to the discretion of individual TO's.
People have to remember that these games were not designed to be played this way, so of course discussions are had every time something questionable arises.
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Traditionally that's not how fighting game characters are banned.
And you can't define how much RNG is too much without actual data. Again, how many times does Hero steal a game from a PGR player? It's too early to say.
VoiD was willing to lab out solutions to "strong" options back then. I'm sure more would have been figured out.
I ultimately think the logistics of customs is what killed them, and they probably would have stuck around a lot longer than one EVO had they been easier to unlock.
You don't need data to ban a character, local tourneys and groups can ban whoever they want on any arbitrary basis they want. A character's ban status ultimately is a result of community consensus which doesn't have to rely on any form of data at all.
A lot of y'all are treating this as if there's a science behind character bans when every scene has different limits. Some scenes will allow anything to fly, some will ban console-exclusive characters, others will be more proactive in how they dish out bans. MvC2 for example has characters that far dominate the game above everyone else, but they're not banned because they basically are the game.
Just because it isn't "traditional" doesn't mean it can't exist. Smash wasn't made as a competitive game, the community made it that way by creating rules and excecuting it. Smash isn't you traditional fighting game. And the discussion isn't if hero is gonna steal how many games by how many players, its if the amount of RNG he shows right now is crossing the line.
Was it impossible to avoid Thwack? Was the opponent unable to make any other play that would have not gotten them killed?
Maybe players need to learn how to respect Hero's specials better to avoid situations where Thwack can hit twice.
You define it with whatever the TO's and general consensus is. There's not ever going to be data that conclusively convinces every single person.
If you're a TO who isn't even interested in evaluating actual data, then you're a shitty TO.
did they really deserve to die at 0 because they jumped or moved towards hero?
Well duh. But right now there's basically no argument also than "well he might have the potential to be really dumb also look at these Twitter clips about a character that only released a few weeks ago". People need to prove he's actually damaging to the meta, not that he's an inconvenience or annoying.
Agreed.
Isn't this just establishing that nothing can ever be a problem in Smash because you can just avoid it? It's not actually addressing the problem of Thwack having imbalanced risk/reward mechanics dictated by RNG, it's deflection.
That seems like it only works if you agree with whatever the opinion is. Which is an immensely problematic way to handle bans especially for the fucking Smash community
You do not need to watch 100 tourneys to decide if a character having random moves and borderline unescapable situations at a single press is not desirable for your scene. You just need the consensus of players. This is about defining the rules and setting the standard in the future.
That's what we're doing now? lol
I watch and play Smash and other fighting games every week. No, two weeks aint enough time to formulate an opinion on this situation, especially when there's almost no match-up exploration being done to begin with, making up hypothetical situations aint how you get something be banned. Stuff like this only serve to make the Smash community look like a joke to casual fans and other communities.
And right now there isn't a consensus. Maybe you gotta prove it better. Maybe some of us would like to wait more than just two weeks to decide the standard in the future?
Like I said, there's 70+ characters in this game. If there's really no answers to mitigate the RNG well, maybe Hero should be banned.
But I see people just stating hypotheticals instead of proving it.
I'll give Puppeh and MVD credit, they're actually trying to do that.
He has a giant hitbox spell that can kill at 0%. That's like the only real problematic aspect of his kit to me tbh. Maybe crits too
Again, there's no data that's going to convince everyone so it has to be done with a consensus of individual opinions. Stages get banned because of instances of stupid shit happening, not because theres a set of statistics showing how frequently upsets happen... that's just ridiculous.
These are games where the rules are decided entirely by a community that built up that style of playing over the last 2 decades, and it will continue to be that way.
Then these people can have it that way,i guess. But it is completely valid if parts of the scene see hero as crossing a line and just as harmful as allowing items. That's the only point i want to defend.
this is one of the clips I was talking about. this is the grand finals of a tournament. is the inkling player supposed to somehow read all the options on that menu (that was only up for about a second) and react to all of them? magic burst was one of the options too, I think that would've hit and done a ton of damage no matter what the inkling did at that point
I'll add that, in the same match, the hero player got a crit down smash and killed at around 40 from the middle of the stage
If it gets stale because every top 8 ever is nothing but Hero, then you can ban. This is just fucking dumb. Let the game rock.
Smash community has a bunch of whiners. There were tons of people bitching about the evo champ because of his character despite there being no one else that plays the character as well as him.
Smash community has a bunch of whiners. There were tons of people bitching about the evo champ because of his character despite there being no one else that plays the character as well as him.
Fine but if these players travel and go to events that don't have him banned then they don't get to complain about not knowing how to deal with the MU
There clearly is a consensus in the South Australian competitive smash scene, unless you're arguing that it's only opinions that agree with yours that matter.
They're deciding the standards for their local scene. Others will likely not ban Hero. As time progresses, tourneys will either keep him unbanned, or there'll be more tourneys that decide to ban him. Y'all are acting like people have decided to delete Hero from the game entirely right now. This is starting to remind me of the arguments where people complained real hard that custom moves or the FS meter was banned and wanted more data to prove it.
Wouldn't be the first time a player died at 0 due to being out of position.
That's not what I said. I meant a consensus overall, that is pretty clear c'mon.
But cool, put words in my mouth.
Same for the ones who main him and travel to regions where he is banned and can't use the characters they trained with.
This is just the TOs of one region of one country. The majority of players do not want Hero banned.
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That's good to hear. The joker whiners after evo put a bad taste in my mouth
Honest critique? I'm not sure why you would aggressively land against a character like Hero when he can punish that play without Thwack. Even if the Hero didn't attempt going for a Command Selection, that operative range is exactly where Hero wants the player given that his anti-airs are some of his only good neutral moves, including up tilt and fully charged side B.
Also not sure why people pretend it's unreactable. Assuming frame perfect execution that's ~42 frames to react to a potential Thwack. Air dodge onto the ledge is going to be Hero counterplay 101 whenever that's an option, which it was in this case. Is it silly that they died so early? Yeah, but let's not pretend it's a perfect play. It was a raw read.
Magic Burst could've been harder to avoid, but it wouldn't have killed at that percent, especially not on Town & City, and Hero would have lost all his resources.
I think it's fine.
I also think TAC infinites in Mahvel 3 are fine.
I think both are questionable but i've wanted wobbling gone for many years. Hearing about it finally getting re-banned at a supermajor week was great news.
EVO really dictated the rules for a good while.
Ive been playing Smash for like 14 hours in the past day thanks to the tournament scene and I had no problems wrecking Hero with Ganondorf.
I think they are overreacting. There are far more issues with the balance of the game than Hero. The fact that that some characters can juggle you off the stage with the same aerial move over and over again is a bigger problem. Speed and priority of moves with the general cast need to balanced better.
I think they are overreacting. There are far more issues with the balance of the game than Hero. The fact that that some characters can juggle you off the stage with the same aerial move over and over again is a bigger problem. Speed and priority of moves with the general cast need to balanced better.
Wobbling was just an over centralizing part of the character that made them unfun to fight. It was also remarkably consistent which is what made it so infamou
Hero RNG you more or less know what to expect just not when to expect it. You have to consider that Hero can roll Thwack and kill you for a bad approach/landing and same with Kamikaze on equal stock situations or when you're at the disadvantage, you have to consider that Hero could roll Magic Burst when recovering. However that doesn't mean it'll always happen if you did a bad approach/landing, or when recovering.
Sure you could just die but unlike Wobbling it isn't going to happen off one mistake. Personally that's why I'm less bothered by Hero and find Wobbling uninteresting and frankly degenerate or at least more so.
It's interesting to see people argue about how players should learn to deal with Hero's moves because you end up getting opposite conclusions all the time.
"Rush him down, he won't be able to use his down special."
"Why approach him when he can use an insta-kill move?"
You can't do both of those things...
Is the argument to approach when he doesn't have the menu up and then run away when he does? I hope not. You're pretty much asking to lose if you let Hero dictate the whole match like that.
I'm guessing the next argument would boil down to reading faster than your opponent in every situation and reacting properly to every option every time unless you want to risk dying at 0%. But that's kind of ridiculous, and that's part of the issue being presented. The TOs that implemented the ban don't think that's good for their scene.
Some people will think that's fine for a competitive scene, but trying to argue that this ban is an overreaction is silly. And I get that people want data, but the down side to banning a character that's already been out for a while can't be ignored either.
"Rush him down, he won't be able to use his down special."
"Why approach him when he can use an insta-kill move?"
You can't do both of those things...
Is the argument to approach when he doesn't have the menu up and then run away when he does? I hope not. You're pretty much asking to lose if you let Hero dictate the whole match like that.
I'm guessing the next argument would boil down to reading faster than your opponent in every situation and reacting properly to every option every time unless you want to risk dying at 0%. But that's kind of ridiculous, and that's part of the issue being presented. The TOs that implemented the ban don't think that's good for their scene.
Some people will think that's fine for a competitive scene, but trying to argue that this ban is an overreaction is silly. And I get that people want data, but the down side to banning a character that's already been out for a while can't be ignored either.
Difference between Hero and G&W is that there's a lot more risk between fishing for a hammer and a critical smash. Bad RNG for G&W means he does almost nothing while Hero's Hero's smashes have no downside other than not getting a super early kill. Most of Hero's down B specials are more safe because many of them can be done from a distance while G&W needs to right in their face.
The biggest issue for Hero is the language barrier. Either someone may be dyslexic or doesn't know the required language for a tournament. Something I saw on reddit that could help is assigning each spell a number as they're more universal.
The biggest issue for Hero is the language barrier. Either someone may be dyslexic or doesn't know the required language for a tournament. Something I saw on reddit that could help is assigning each spell a number as they're more universal.
Look, I'll admit Thwack doesn't need to kill so early and critical hits could maybe use a little less knock back. Hero can be tweaked in meaningful ways that reduces his propensity for bullshit wins.
So, why are people rallying behind ban instead of tweak/nerf? It's absurd that Hero has only been our for two weeks and people are leading a crusade against his existence and not the specifics of his moves. And honestly, I don't have much respect for competitive Smash and their unwillingness to even bring in more diverse stages. At a certain point, randomness and unlikely events are just a normal part of life and it feels like they'd rather keep the game as intentionally simple as possible rather then incorporate legitimate outside elements. Part of skill is also adapting to situations on the fly, but I feel like competitive Smash seems wholly unwilling to embrace such things.
Start a campaign for meaningful changes to Hero, not a ban campaign for Christ sake. RNG in most ways doesn't cause all that many problems worth talking about, so if you adjusted two little things, Hero would be just fine.
So, why are people rallying behind ban instead of tweak/nerf? It's absurd that Hero has only been our for two weeks and people are leading a crusade against his existence and not the specifics of his moves. And honestly, I don't have much respect for competitive Smash and their unwillingness to even bring in more diverse stages. At a certain point, randomness and unlikely events are just a normal part of life and it feels like they'd rather keep the game as intentionally simple as possible rather then incorporate legitimate outside elements. Part of skill is also adapting to situations on the fly, but I feel like competitive Smash seems wholly unwilling to embrace such things.
Start a campaign for meaningful changes to Hero, not a ban campaign for Christ sake. RNG in most ways doesn't cause all that many problems worth talking about, so if you adjusted two little things, Hero would be just fine.
Yeah, it's extreme. It's probably not happening because people don't want to send the message they want nerfs in the game. Which I'd say is very misguided but it is what it is.
You admit you don't particularly care about competitive smash and then go on to suggest that because random and unlucky things happen in real life that it should be fine to include that as part of an intentionally structured competition.
The reason people are for a ban instead of balance changes is because Nintendo does not really care about community feedback for their patches, and the community has been adjusting the rules for themselves for decades because Smash is intrinsically not designed to be primarily played like more conventional competitive fighting games.
I completely agree everything you said. This does feel very similar to how items have been treated over the years and just makes the smash community look even more like elitist immature children. Some changes do need to be made but at least try to learn to adapt for once.
How does playing without items make people immature children? Some of us just don't think that's fun. The personal insults based on how people prefer to play a game aren't terribly mature.
Right move. While I don't think hero would win a lot of tournaments, if any at all, it is absolutely true that his randomness is on a completely different level than current RNG mechanics. There are things you just CAN'T play around such as magic burst or zoom. He can even throw out unsafe Smash attacks which should get him punished after a shield but instead it shield breaks the enemy by chance and he gets a free kill for doing something stupid.
Really surprised by some of the responses in here. Hero doesn't need to win anything tonprove that he is busted. It's not about him being OP such as Brawl Meta Knight or Bayo 4 Smash. He's just too luck based.
Edit: Reading some immature posts above I guess the criticism for the ban stems more from people with a general hate for the competitive Smash community so... who cares. 'Just adapt to item and Hero RNG bro!'
Really surprised by some of the responses in here. Hero doesn't need to win anything tonprove that he is busted. It's not about him being OP such as Brawl Meta Knight or Bayo 4 Smash. He's just too luck based.
Edit: Reading some immature posts above I guess the criticism for the ban stems more from people with a general hate for the competitive Smash community so... who cares. 'Just adapt to item and Hero RNG bro!'