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Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
Whoo boy, this game has serious, serious problems. It commits all sorts of VR fouls that should not be committed, and is making people very sick in the process.





The heart of the problem? They physically simulate the player, including inverse kinematics, and the IK causes the game to constantly wrestle the camera away from the player in unnatural ways. The widely questioned "why does Half Life Alyx not have arms" in full demonstration here, the IK of even the arms in boneworks causes problems that actually results in people getting sick.

What an extreme disappointment.
 

Lant_War

Classic Anus Game
The Fallen
Jul 14, 2018
23,584
Wow, really surprised about this considering the amazing impressions it's been getting on the past few weeks. Hope they can patch this.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
These are fundamental problems that had been identified, like, back in 2014. It is mind blowing that a game like this is still having these kinds of problems, when many, maaaany other games have demonstrated proper work arounds.

It's like they ignored all VR game development since the DK1 entirely.
 

Ferrio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,076
Disappointing, it's going to be the first game I try out the Index controllers on :(. I'll have to find other games to try out my fancy new fingers.
 

Zips

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,913
I anticipate a lot of people who just got a shiny new VR headset are going to get a real garbage first impression of the technology if this is their first experience with it.

I haven't played it myself yet. It's installed but given that I just got done eating, I'm willing to hold off.
 

Keyouta

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,197
Canada
The impressions videos I've watched looked positive so for it to have problems that have been solved for years is surprising. Hopefully some quick updates can take care of this stuff. The camera bounce and shake climbing the monkey bars would probably put me out lol.
 

Potterson

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,418
And that, kids, is WHY WE DONT WANT FULL BODY PHYSICS in VR games.

The head moves like it's on real body. In games like HL Alyx, it can move unrealisticly, but it can match the real movement of our head.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
friendly reminder, as I've said for years now that, despite annecdotal evidence, "VR legs" is NOT a reliable thing, and an enormous number of people will NEVER form "VR legs." It's very poor design to demand the players "git gud" at not puking. The sensible game VR game development solution is to design around the baseline comfort first, and provide options for people with higher tolerance. Physically simulating the player should NEVER be done, teleportation should always be a baseline. Good for you if you don't get sick by lateral rotation, many do not. Provide an option if players are lucky like that, but don't design around it.

On top of these fundamental problems with boneworks, the implementation itself is also pretty janky. The IK of the arms is really awful, and the game itself has problems with the Microsoft Windows VR controllers. Even stuff you'd expect to be common sense, like having an option to use the vive side buttons as toggles instead of holding them down are missing. Again, these are things that other games have been doing for years now already.

Just... really surprisingly bad stuff here.
 

Raccoon

Member
May 31, 2019
15,896
so (dumbass alert) inverse kinematics track a desired position of a part of a character or whatnot and basically calculate in real time how to move the joints to get it there. this is bad for this application for the reasons evident in the op: in real time with VR precision tracking, you end up with some severe jank.
 

ss_lemonade

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,659
Man, is this similar to my issue with games like Fallout 4 where I sometimes would phase through geometry and the game would automatically shift me slightly back or to the side because of the collision? Those small shifts make me extremely nauseous because it's an action not triggered by me.

EDIT:
Yeah, that twitter video with the monkey bars would definitely make me sick
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 51691

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 6, 2019
17,834
That's a shame, the tech seemed really impressive. Too bad it seems they did not thoroughly consider the actual player experience enough.
 

Qassim

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,532
United Kingdom
I spent an hour or so playing this, it is a cool game in many ways, but what I find funny about it is that there are literally (in story/universe) things in the game that essentially mock other VR games as 'primitive' for having other locomotion types. It also puts up warnings about being for 'Advanced VR users'.

I respect the effort they've put into it - and I usually don't mind banter along these lines - but I think it just ends up feeling.. not particularly inclusive, which is a shame. I don't really think it needs to be so uncompromising.
 
Last edited:

ashbash159

Member
Oct 27, 2017
221
Didn't make me sick but the controls were what I had a problem with.

VR games should give options for locomotion. Everyone feels differently regarding motion sickness.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
When I first saw videos of people playing boneworks and the devs talking about it, it gave the impression that they had "cracked the code" of VR, by introducing several VR mechanics together, and do them better.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537

modern VR only has 3 points of articulation that are tracked in space -- the head, and each hand. This is why games like Half Life Alyx are just floating hands, no arms, because there are not enough points in space to actually simulate the arms.

In real life, the location of our limbs in space is determined, logically, as a series of weighted joints extending from our core frame. Our shoulder is one point, where it is resting in the real world influences our elbow, which influences our wrist, which influences our hands. Mapping from the core of our frame to the hands is known as kinematics.

In 2D games, there is a way to work backwards to simulate this, called inverse kinematics. Using a rigid body, you can guess where the preceeding joints might be to figure out a logical position. So the position of your hands informs a guess where the elbow might be, which informs where the shoulder might be, and so forth. These guesses are almost always wrong, which is why games like Jurassic Park Tresspasser does things like this:

rV5m7uY.jpg


IK and VR do not play well together at all. When we worked on Half Life 2 VR, we used floating hands because we realized that the IK would cause the arms to actually swing in front of the players eyes during shootouts, blocking their view. And because the joints on the elbow and shoulder aren't actually tracked but rather inferred, the only way to move the arms out of your eyes was to move your hands, thus ruining the shot. So the solution was to just not map the arms at all, and concentrate on the known, well tracked limbs (i.e. hands alone).

Boneworks uses IK, and applies a physics model to them. So your arm, which is just inferred by your hand, might brush up against a wall, but the arm will physically move your VR body out of the way, so that your view in game sways back like you were stepping away from the wall, even though your IRL body didn't do any of that motion. The end result is that the game is essentially constantly swaying you around, pushing you against walls, through motions you did NOT do. This is the cardinal sin of VR, you NEVER wrestle movement of the camera away from the user. It makes people VERY sick. This was one of the very first most fundamental lessons learned about VR design.

This is like a VR game straight out of 2013.
 

VirtualCloud

Member
Aug 3, 2018
775
interesting, most of the reactions I have heard so far has been extremely positive. Haven't jumped in myself yet but will do this weekend. Either way never been a fan of the whole body being there in vr, I prefer floating hands so much more.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,874
Guess you'd have to eat a plenty of crystallized gingers before playing this game.

It benefits for me to deal with motion sickness like this when I used a PSVR.
 

Ryu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
I am the Bone of my Works
Iron is my Stomach and Janky is my Movement.
I have created over a Thousand Bones,
Unknown to Physics,
Nor known to Comfort.
Have withstood Motion-Sickness to create many Gameplays
Yet those Hands will never hold Bars.
So, as I Pray
Unlimited Boneworks
 

ghostcrew

The Shrouded Ghost
Administrator
Oct 27, 2017
30,367
Holy crap, it's like all of the lessons that we've learned about what to do/what not to do in VR have been forgotten or ignored.

What a major bummer.
 

Youngfossil

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,670
I expect some people are going to get more sick with this than any other game. Boneworks is expert level VR stuff. But people have been streaming it for hours straight. its a YMMV type of situation
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
Like, seriously, when the DK2 came out, an enormous amount of research was done on the oculus developer portal by small developers to figure out the best way to handle physical bodies in VR spaces, like what to do when you approach a wall. So many ideas put forth -- let people phase through the wall, let the world blank out temporarily, display an "out of bounds" error, etc.

You know what people DIDN'T do? Have the physical world push back on your body to keep you out of the wall, because it was immediately evident that it would make people sick.

THIS ENTIRE GAME IS BUILT AROUND THAT CONCEPT! I'm fucking flabbergasted!
 

Mindfreak191

Member
Dec 2, 2017
4,771
Can I have a "Why are there just floating hands in HL:A?!"....seriously, this is one of the reasons developers avoid simulating a full body, it creates problems for no reason, not that that is the sole problem that players of Boneworks are experiencing, but it is definitely contributing to it. I'll take just floating hands over a full body in VR any time of the day.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
I mean... duh. Boneworks is expert level VR stuff. People have been streaming it for hours straight. its a YMMV type of situation

calling it "expert level" is laugh worthy. That implies people can get better at it. It's not "exper level" VR stuff, it's actually pretty much a collection of rookie VR development mistakes. Many, many people will NEVER be able to play this game, this is a very, very bad thing for the medium and its image.
 

Deleted member 1722

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,058
So far I've only had a few problems with the avatar getting in the way of things when I crouch down. Like, I've crouched and had the bending knee push the avatar backwards from the object I was close to. Pretty disconcerting, but easy to mentally solve for and avoid. The illusion of a body is quite novel still. It's still a very very impressive game, I think it's very successful at what it's aiming to do.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,443
Like, seriously, when the DK2 came out, an enormous amount of research was done on the oculus developer portal by small developers to figure out the best way to handle physical bodies in VR spaces, like what to do when you approach a wall. So many ideas put forth -- let people phase through the wall, let the world blank out temporarily, display an "out of bounds" error, etc.

You know what people DIDN'T do? Have the physical world push back on your body to keep you out of the wall, because it was immediately evident that it would make people sick.

THIS ENTIRE GAME IS BUILT AROUND THAT CONCEPT! I'm fucking flabbergasted!
The cynic in me thinks this stuff was done intentionally to differentiate it from other VR titles because it looked cool in marketing. You could see this in the tiny backlash HLA got for just being "floating hands" when people would say, "How can Boneworks do full bodies but freaking Valve can't!" The truth is, Boneworks couldn't do it either.
 

Ciberjm

Member
Aug 7, 2019
10
I'm surprised to read this thread. In my experience I didn't get any single motion sickness playing it for 1 hour straight where in Asgard's Wrath I get it in some areas. Maybe I haven't reached the hard parts but so far I'm superhappy with the game since I love all these physics. Sad to read about the issues.
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,261
I can tell from that first video that I'll never play it.

It makes for impressive Youtube videos, but man o man, the bounce from climbing that pole would be torture for me. I don't see any point in simulating physics if I'm not physically driving it. Smooth locomotion is bad enough for me, that video's essentially camera shake that's completely disconnected from the player's physical reality. I don't care if it is the physical reality of the character object.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,065
I really don't think IK isn't inherently a problem.

Nymsony is a good channel on this topic, he does a lot of development and experiments in VR. Here's what he has to say about Alyx. I am excited to hear what he has to say on Boneworks as well.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534


This is the video I was talking about, its sounds like this game is a game changer for VR, @ 6.35 in the video he said they combine hand combat, shooting, climbing and other things into 1 game.

Seems odd though the people playing it in the video did not have complaints and were actually giving it heavy praise.
 

ghostcrew

The Shrouded Ghost
Administrator
Oct 27, 2017
30,367
You know what people DIDN'T do? Have the physical world push back on your body to keep you out of the wall, because it was immediately evident that it would make people sick.

Fallout 4 VR does this when you clip your vision through a wall/door/NPC. It just pushes your character back.

I absolutely hated it and refunded the game the same day I bought it (release day) and that was the main reason. It's inexcusable.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
I can tell from that first video that I'll never play it.

It makes for impressive Youtube videos, but man o man, the bounce from climbing that pole would be torture for me. I don't see any point in simulating physics if I'm not physically driving it. Smooth locomotion is bad enough for me, that video's essentially camera shake that's completely disconnected from the player's physical reality. I don't care if it is the physical reality of the character object.

Thing is, simulating physics in VR is great. There are lots of great VR physics simulation. Hell, HL:A is being built around physics simulations.

The problem is that the physics are influencing the camera position, which is really dumb. It should be the other way around, the person influences the world, not the world influences the person.
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,261
Thing is, simulating physics in VR is great. There are lots of great VR physics simulation. Hell, HL:A is being built around physics simulations.

The problem is that the physics are influencing the camera position, which is really dumb. It should be the other way around, the person influences the world, not the world influences the person.

Oh, absolutely. That's why I said unless I'm driving it. I want HL:A to be completely physics driven. But I want the physics to be driven by my actions, not some character avatar of me.
 

Letters

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,451
Portugal
It's shame these guys doubled down on having body and arms as an important part of their game. Floating hands look stupid on youtube but they just look and feel sooo good when you're actually in VR, at least in the Index where it's like you're looking at your own hands 1:1 through the headset. Your brain just fills in the blank space of your arms, you don't even think about it, it's very immersive. Janky arms and body that don't match the real position of your own is just awful.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
I really don't think IK isn't inherently a problem.

Like I said, we ran into problems with IK not at all related to physics. In HL2VR, the IK didn't influence your physical position at all, but IK was still a big problem in other ways. Like, again, during a shootout, you'd have the IK act up and jump in front of your eyes. Were your joints actually tracked, what you'd do IRL is just reposition your shoulder and elbow subconsciously to adjust your view. Except there is absolutely no way to do that since those parts of your body aren't tracked. So the only way to influence the IK was to move your hands, which would make you miss your shot. It meant you basically either had to fire blind behind your own arm, or straight up not aim at the enemies.

IK doesn't play well with VR. People don't use floating arms because they haven't thought about how arms would be neat, or because they haven't heard about IK before. floating hands are a thing for practical reasons, with lots of evidence and real life scenarios demonstrating why.
 

Skittles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,274
friendly reminder, as I've said for years now that, despite annecdotal evidence, "VR legs" is NOT a reliable thing, and an enormous number of people will NEVER form "VR legs." It's very poor design to demand the players "git gud" at not puking. The sensible game VR game development solution is to design around the baseline comfort first, and provide options for people with higher tolerance. Physically simulating the player should NEVER be done, teleportation should always be a baseline. Good for you if you don't get sick by lateral rotation, many do not. Provide an option if players are lucky like that, but don't design around it.

On top of these fundamental problems with boneworks, the implementation itself is also pretty janky. The IK of the arms is really awful, and the game itself has problems with the Microsoft Windows VR controllers. Even stuff you'd expect to be common sense, like having an option to use the vive side buttons as toggles instead of holding them down are missing. Again, these are things that other games have been doing for years now already.

Just... really surprisingly bad stuff here.
Lack of options is baffling, because even though I can handle all forms of movement. Smooth movement is most of the time way too fucking slow for action games, much prefer teleporting.
modern VR only has 3 points of articulation that are tracked in space -- the head, and each hand. This is why games like Half Life Alyx are just floating hands, no arms, because there are not enough points in space to actually simulate the arms.

In real life, the location of our limbs in space is determined, logically, as a series of weighted joints extending from our core frame. Our shoulder is one point, where it is resting in the real world influences our elbow, which influences our wrist, which influences our hands. Mapping from the core of our frame to the hands is known as kinematics.

In 2D games, there is a way to work backwards to simulate this, called inverse kinematics. Using a rigid body, you can guess where the preceeding joints might be to figure out a logical position. So the position of your hands informs a guess where the elbow might be, which informs where the shoulder might be, and so forth. These guesses are almost always wrong, which is why games like Jurassic Park Tresspasser does things like this:

rV5m7uY.jpg


IK and VR do not play well together at all. When we worked on Half Life 2 VR, we used floating hands because we realized that the IK would cause the arms to actually swing in front of the players eyes during shootouts, blocking their view. And because the joints on the elbow and shoulder aren't actually tracked but rather inferred, the only way to move the arms out of your eyes was to move your hands, thus ruining the shot. So the solution was to just not map the arms at all, and concentrate on the known, well tracked limbs (i.e. hands alone).

Boneworks uses IK, and applies a physics model to them. So your arm, which is just inferred by your hand, might brush up against a wall, but the arm will physically move your VR body out of the way, so that your view in game sways back like you were stepping away from the wall, even though your IRL body didn't do any of that motion. The end result is that the game is essentially constantly swaying you around, pushing you against walls, through motions you did NOT do. This is the cardinal sin of VR, you NEVER wrestle movement of the camera away from the user. It makes people VERY sick. This was one of the very first most fundamental lessons learned about VR design.

This is like a VR game straight out of 2013.
To add to this, your hand has roughly 110 degrees of rotation it can do without ever moving the position of your shoulder or elbow. This means any guess will almost always be wrong (except for broken clock is right twice a day type situations). To further complicate things, your arm extension can vary greatly on whether or not you extend your shoulder or not. It's far too many variables to provide even a close to accurate estimation. And tracking those joins won't be viable for another half decade at least.
 

GlowingBovine

Prophet of Truth
Member
Nov 27, 2017
790
Also crazy to see how many people are calling others entitled for complaining and leaving bad reviews due to it not working on WMR. This game seems have an outspoken fanbase already who thinks it can do no wrong.
 

Kurt Russell

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,504


This is the video I was talking about, its sounds like this game is a game changer for VR, @ 6.35 in the video he said hold they combine hand combat, shooting, climbing and other things into 1 games.

Seems odd though the people playing it in the video did not have complaints and were actually giving it heavy praise.


Well, that's the co-founder of the company and two of his friends who work with him on the Node channel. Of course they'd give it heavy praise... I assume they are also super used to the game since they've played it far earlier than anyone outside of the dev team.
I've played 2 hours of it, and while I can take it so far, it's amazing how wrong the full body stuff can get.

Also crazy to see how many people are calling others entitled for complaining and leaving bad reviews due to it not working on WMR. This game seems have an outspoken fanbase already who thinks it can do no wrong.

Yeah, that one really baffled me. They advertised the game as compatible with WMR, what should people do? Also it's amazing how every time a game comes out with issues that end up leading to negative reviews, people talk about "review bombing". Lots of people leaving negative reviews because they have very legitimate issues is not review bombing, it's the system working as intended.
 

PennyStonks

Banned
May 17, 2018
4,401
I hate when IK looks messed up. The idea that it could interact with a wall while the IK goes Chicken Wings sounds awful.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,443


This is the video I was talking about, its sounds like this game is a game changer for VR, @ 6.35 in the video he said they combine hand combat, shooting, climbing and other things into 1 game.

Seems odd though the people playing it in the video did not have complaints and were actually giving it heavy praise.

I believe the people in that video are friends with the developer.