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Nightengale

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,708
Malaysia
An interesting segment on Marvel Game's early history and how they reached out to both Microsoft and Sony to explore potential first-party deals, how they had to negotiate with Activision to terminate the Spider-Man deal earlier than deadline, and some extra details on Sony/Insomniac/Marvel relationship and how it happened.

This is from the Ultimate History of Video Games book, volume 2, published last year if people want to validate what's here:

The Ultimate History of Video Games, Volume 2: Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, and the Billion-Dollar Battle to Shape Modern Gaming: Kent, Steven L.: 9781984825438: Amazon.com: Books

The Ultimate History of Video Games, Volume 2: Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, and the Billion-Dollar Battle to Shape Modern Gaming [Kent, Steven L.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Ultimate History of Video Games, Volume 2: Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, and the Billion-Dollar...

It had quotes from Jay Ong & Ted Price.

Hired as Marvel's vice president of games in May 2014, Jay Ong's first challenge was to discover why Marvel's box office success hadn't translated to games.

On the Marvel side, there had been games that were beloved well before I got there. Marvel vs. Capcom had its fan base. Ultimate Alliance had its fan base. They both were really high-quality games that were made for the fans.

—Jay Ong

Marvel Games reaching out to Xbox & PlayStation & why MS passed over a Marvel deal.
What he needed was a publishing partner who hadn't adopted the "crappy licensed games" mentality. He needed a company with an eye for long-term investments, one with a vested interest that would benefit from building a franchise. That partner would need to have a deep pool of talent, commitment to quality, and inexhaustibly deep pockets. There were three companies that fit that description. One of them, Nintendo, mostly developed games based on its own intellectual properties.

Being from console first-party in my past, I pinged both sides, both Xbox and PlayStation, and said, "We don't have any big console deals with anyone right now. What would you like to do?" Microsoft's strategy was to focus on their own IP. They passed.

I sat down with these two execs from PlayStation third-party, Adam Boyes and John Drake, in August 2014, in a conference room in Burbank. I said, "We have a dream that this is possible, that we could beat Arkham and have one game at least and maybe multiple games that could drive adoption of your platform."

—Jay Ong

Boyes, Drake, Connie Booth, vice president of product development, Sony Interactive Entertainment, and Scott Rohde, senior vice president of product development, Sony Interactive Entertainment, offered to make a triple-A PlayStation-exclusive Spider-Man game.

With the exception of 2003, Activision had released at least one Spider-Man game per year from 2000 through 2008, sometimes more. Having controlled the license for nearly a decade, Activision was so immersed in how well Spider-Man games were currently selling that they could no longer imagine how well a Spider-Man game could sell.

You've got Spider-Man. You've got Sony. You've got people willing to throw $40 or $50 million into a game…conservatively. That's very different. In those days [before Arkham Asylum], the publisher was paying you, not the licensor, and the publisher wanted to spend as little as possible.

—Vince Desi

Marvel Games & a mutually agreed early-termination deal on Spider-Man gaming license with Activision.
Marvel decided to approach Activision about terminating the contract early. As they negotiated the request, Ong explained that Spider-Man needed new talent, a bigger budget, and fresh eyes. We finally negotiated a deal for them to walk away. It was a mutually beneficial deal. When we shook hands on it, they asked, "So what are you going to do with this IP after you get it back?"

I said, "I'm going to find a better home for it."

They replied, "Good luck finding your unicorn."

—Jay Ong

PlayStation, Marvel Games & Insomniac - Marvel's Spider-Man and a worthy rival to Arkham
Sony turned the project over to Insomniac Games,*18 an independent studio at the time, but one of Sony's most important partners. Insomniac had a long list of hits that were published under the Sony label—Spyro the Dragon, Ratchet & Clank, Resistance: Fall of Man, and most recently Sunset Overdrive.*19

Insomniac was an obvious choice for the project. As a studio, Insomniac had an impeccable record as both a designer of hit games and a reliable partner for Sony. Another plus, one of the studio's most recent games, Sunset Overdrive, incorporated a fast-paced, highly acrobatic style of combat that was equal parts parkour, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater, and Call of Duty, a very Spider-Man style of fighting that involved swinging and grinding over cities while facing multiple enemies.

Insomniac's ability to create games based on already existing intellectual property may have caused some concern. Historically, the studio created IP rather than building off of other companies' ideas. In truth, other companies adapted Insomniac's IP.*20
When we heard of the opportunity, thanks to Connie [Sony Interactive Entertainment vice president of product development Connie Booth] at Sony, it was a real surprise for me because up until that point we had been working on our own IP and hadn't really contemplated working on existing franchises.

—Ted Price,

founder and CEO, Insomniac Games

Sony's participation in this project would be anything but passive. Including marketing, the budget for franchise-building games like Marvel's Spider-Man routinely exceeded $100 million. With so much money and prestige on the line, Sony Interactive Entertainment assigned senior director Grady Hunt and PS4 designer Mark Cerny to consult on the project. Both men had worked as Sony consultants with Insomniac on early projects as well.

The three-way collaboration between Insomniac, Marvel, and Sony was a success. Having partnered with Insomniac many times throughout the PlayStation and PS2 eras, Sony executives had confidence in the studio's technical and game design savvy. For their part, studio founder Ted Price and his fellow "Insomniacs" understood how to work with Sony as well. Having worked in different industries serving a mostly similar audience, Price's Insomniacs had a natural affinity with their Marvel counterparts as well.
Very early on, we knew that there was a great chemistry between us and our compatriots at Marvel. A lot of that came from being able to learn more about the Marvel universe from those who were really experts in it…guys like Bill Rosemann [executive creative director, Marvel Games]. At the same time, the Marvel team was fantastic in trusting us to come up with a new story…to come up with a new take on Peter Parker, and to explore the mechanics of what Spider-Man could be in a modern game.

—Ted Price

Along with its proven track record, Insomniac brought technical expertise to the project. Like so many games of the PS3/Xbox 360 era, Arkham Asylum was built using Unreal Engine 3, a versatile and powerful engine created by Epic. Insomniac used its proprietary Insomniac Engine.

The Insomniac Engine enabled us to create a very large city. The New York we created for Marvel's Spider-Man was ten times the size of the city we created for Sunset Overdrive and more detailed. More importantly, in Spider-Man you can go anywhere because you're Spider-Man.
From the very beginning, we had to figure out how to make that work and make the views from the tallest buildings feel believable when we have limited horsepower to use. The goal is to be clever about how you display things and keep the game in frame while giving players a lot of freedom to do whatever they feel like at any time. Spider-Man is kind of the ultimate expression of that.

—Ted Price
Marvel's Spider-Man was indeed a worthy rival for the Arkham games. Breaking Spider-Man into the top tier of games wasn't only a question of money and technology; it was a question of finding a team with a grand vision. Insomniac wanted to create an iconic game for an iconic superhero. Marvel's active participation ensured a new level of authenticity. Wanting to create a PlayStation-exclusive franchise, Sony not only lent Marvel's Spider-Man a gigantic marketing budget, the console giant also offered technical support from start to finish.

When it came to Spider-Man, Activision wasn't prepared to compete against games like Batman: Arkham Asylum. Sony was. To date, the Arkham games and Marvel's Spider-Man are unrivaled among superhero games for sales, with a steep drop to the next tier down. In 2020, as Sony prepared to release PlayStation 5, the exclusive game headlining that release was Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales.

Marvel's Spider-Man was the first time that Marvel proper realized that games as a medium could drive the brand…could drive "brand affinity," as we call it.

—Jay Ong
 

Deleted member 93062

Account closed at user request
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Mar 4, 2021
24,767
Not surprised Microsoft passed. I really wish they would have, though.

Microsoft, as a corp, has shown time and time again that they hate licensing stuff and would prefer to just outright own it. The whole feud with C418 and Minecraft music is a great example of it.
 
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SasaBassa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,075
Does this go into the absolute buffoonery that would encapsulate the versus series side of things?

Glad they figured out the story driven side of their gaming catalogue but it extracted a heavy toll.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,763
Insomniac is quite the unicorn indeed.

They've done a wonderful job with these games and I can't wait to see what the do with SM2 and Wolverine.
 

0xe0x

Banned
Dec 23, 2021
286
Actually just read the book a few weeks ago, it's really good.

A lot of stuff surrounding some games I didn't know about, including;

- J Allard being one of the best visionaries for the Xbox project

- Hilarious happenings in MS when they made a dakimakura promo product for DoA Xtreme Volleyball

- Kojima Productions actually having a test version of MGS4 on an Xbox 360 devkit that ran well/better than the PS3 version, but they decided against releasing it since it's 50GB (the MGS4 stack of DVDs meme was real)

- Aforementioned MGS4 was never an exclusive.
 

Secret Bambino

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Mar 21, 2021
2,919
Actually just read the book a few weeks ago, it's really good.

A lot of stuff surrounding some games I didn't know about, including;

- Kojima Productions actually having a test version of MGS4 on an Xbox 360 devkit that ran well/better than the PS3 version, but they decided against releasing it since it's 50GB (the MGS4 stack of DVDs meme was real)

- Aforementioned MGS4 was never an exclusive.

Oh wow, this one's really interesting.
 
Jul 2, 2021
15,669
Marvel decided to approach Activision about terminating the contract early. As they negotiated the request, Ong explained that Spider-Man needed new talent, a bigger budget, and fresh eyes. We finally negotiated a deal for them to walk away. It was a mutually beneficial deal. When we shook hands on it, they asked, "So what are you going to do with this IP after you get it back?"

I said, "I'm going to find a better home for it."

They replied, "Good luck finding your unicorn."
Little did they know that Sony had (and still have) unicorns in their stable.
 

quail_lad

Member
Aug 3, 2021
797
Not surprised Microsoft passed. I really wish they would have, though.

Microsoft, as a corp, has shown time and time again that they hate licensing stuff and would prefer to just outright own it. The whole feud with C418 and Minecraft music is a great example of it.
The Indiana Jones game is obviously a Bethesda driven project. I wonder if this will convince Microsoft to do more licensed stuff or if this will end up being a one time thing.
 

Ascenion

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,099
Mecklenburg-Strelitz
Hopefully with Spider-Man 2 they actually reach that Arkham level. As it is Asylum and City are still the better games that understand their character better and the universe.
 

christocolus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,932
Also back then Xbox didnt have that much funding or that many dev teams. IIRC they had just started planning their 1P expansion. I think it is something they would jump at now as they have more than enough teams and more joining soon (ABK) .. I would personally like to see Raven software go back to trying their hands on superhero games.
The Indiana Jones game is obviously a Bethesda driven project. I wonder if this will convince Microsoft to do more licensed stuff or if this will end up being a one time thing.
They did some stuff with SoT too. seems they are leaving it to the dev teams.
 
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Raigor

Member
May 14, 2020
15,146
Sony's participation in this project would be anything but passive. Including marketing, the budget for franchise-building games like Marvel's Spider-Man routinely exceeded $100 million

This is not remotely suprising, Activision didn't care one bit about the Marvel Games despite having the license for years, they were putting the budget on COD and nothing else.

Raven, High Moon and Beenox were only given scraps to work on marvel games and it showed.
 

FF Seraphim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,727
Tokyo
Being from console first-party in my past, I pinged both sides, both Xbox and PlayStation, and said, "We don't have any big console deals with anyone right now. What would you like to do?" Microsoft's strategy was to focus on their own IP. They passed.

I am confused by this. This was 2014 yeah? What big IPs did MS create that could rival Spider-man during the years of the Xbox One?
 
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Nightengale

Nightengale

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,708
Malaysia
I am confused by this. This was 2014 yeah? What big IPs did MS create that could rival Spider-man during the years of the Xbox One?

Own IP does not mean only existing IP, but something they create/own.

For many years, the assumption was that SIE was more rigid than other pubs when it comes to IP ownership and would never do a 1st-party licensed game because Spyro/Crash and how they lost the IP meant that they dictated IP ownership in a lot of 1st-party dealings and there were game deals that they passed over because of IP rights.

Basically : "Eh, rather than make a Marvel Spider-Man, we'll make THE MAN SPIDER, which we will fully own the IP rights to."
 

quail_lad

Member
Aug 3, 2021
797
For many years, the assumption was that SIE was more rigid than other pubs when it comes to IP ownership and would never do a 1st-party licensed game because Spyro/Crash and how they lost the IP meant that they dictated IP ownership in a lot of 1st-party dealings and there were game deals that they passed over because of IP rights.
I still think that's largely true they always seem to insist on owning the ip in their partnerships. Spider-Man (and marvel in general) was just big enough to warrant an exception.
 

LD50

Banned
May 11, 2022
904
Also back then Xbox didnt have that much funding or that many dev teams. IIRC they had just started planning their 1P expansion. I think it is something they would jump at now as they have more than enough teams and more joining soon (ABK) .. I would personally like to see Raven software go back to trying their hands on superhero games.
It's probably for the best that they didn't bid on it. The closest IP they had to Spider-Man was Crackdown. Honestly don't think MS had the developers at the time to conceptualize a game like Marvel's Spider-Man.

Would love to see that take a crack at Xmen IPs, though. The synergy is obvious and I think they have the talent to make something work with Cable, for instance.

Could you imagine Arkane working on a Nightcrawler game? Or Cable? Mmm.
 
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Deleted member 93062

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Mar 4, 2021
24,767
They did some stuff with SoT too. seems they are leaving it to the dev teams.
I think they're fine with crossovers like we've seen in Forza. I just don't think we'll see first party studios outside of maybe Zenimax and Activision do entire games based on licensed media. But even those two might not be able to because it seems like a Microsoft Corp policy and not an Xbox one.
 
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Nightengale

Nightengale

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Oct 26, 2017
5,708
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Sony didn't own Insomniac when they signed this deal, so it's not like ownership of the developer was mandatory.

All Marvel needed from Sony/MS was a willingness to sign a blank-ish cheque and a commitment of the game being attached to top-class talent.

It's worth remembering that in 2014, the image and stigma around licensed games were mostly crap aside from Arkham and Shadow of Mordor.

Activision didn't see the potential for Spider-Man and they owned that potential for years.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,925
Weird Nintendo wasn't even considered when they ended up doing MUA3 anyway. Honestly they have a real solid track record with licensing IP too (Tetris, SimCity, Fatal Frame, Bayonetta, etc).
 

0xe0x

Banned
Dec 23, 2021
286
Weird Nintendo wasn't even considered when they ended up doing MUA3 anyway. Honestly they have a real solid track record with licensing IP too (Tetris, SimCity, Fatal Frame, Bayonetta, etc).
Read the OP again, they were the first to be considered, and they made Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3
 
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Nightengale

Nightengale

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Oct 26, 2017
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Weird Nintendo wasn't even considered when they ended up doing MUA3 anyway. Honestly they have a real solid track record with licensing IP too (Tetris, SimCity, Fatal Frame, Bayonetta, etc).

The book didn't have details on Marvel's negotiation/discussions with Nintendo, Telltale, Capcom, Square Enix.

Only Sony, Activision and MS.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,925
Read the OP again, they were the first to be considered, and they made Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3
Maybe I misread but the comment on Nintendo gave the impression they were excluded due to focusing on their own IP?

The book didn't have details on Marvel's negotiation/discussions with Nintendo, Telltale, Capcom, Square Enix.

Only Sony and MS.
Yeah, looking at the Nintendo comment again it's not really definitive either way.
 

quail_lad

Member
Aug 3, 2021
797
I think they're fine with crossovers like we've seen in Forza. I just don't think we'll see first party studios outside of maybe Zenimax and Activision do entire games based on licensed media. But even those two might not be able to because it seems like a Microsoft Corp policy and not an Xbox one.
If that's really a Microsoft wide policy, than we can probably expect even more licensed stuff from Sony. They'll want to press that advantage.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,925
I think Xbox's pivot on owning IP came around that same time. They'd funded a lot of stuff they didn't own outright on the OG Xbox and 360 (Oddworld, Shenmue, Jade Empire, Kingdom Under Fire, Gears of War, Mass Effect, Ninja Blade, Dance Central, Alan Wake, etc, etc) and that pretty much ended right around Xbox One launch. I think they bought Gears from Epic around then too.
 

SPRidley

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,238
Not surprised Microsoft passed. I really wish they would have, though.

Microsoft, as a corp, has shown time and time again that they hate licensing stuff and would prefer to just outright own it. The whole feud with C418 and Minecraft music is a great example of it.
But the do a lot of licensing IP with minecraft, including disney, we worked with micrsoft and disney to create the magic kingdom map for example. They also did the same with disney kinect games and sea of thieves.
Probably only want to licencense when they view it as games for kids or family games only?
 

Deleted member 93062

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Mar 4, 2021
24,767
But the do a lot of licensing IP with minecraft, including disney, we worked with micrsoft and disney to create the magic kingdom map for example. They also did the same with disney kinect games and sea of thieves.
Probably only want to licencense when they view it as games for kids or family games only?
Maybe in 2011 they were cool with it, but everything I've seen and heard from Microsoft since (like this thread), just tells me they are probably not going to fund entire games using licensed IP. Indiana Jones was most likely Bethesda and it was before the deal even closed IIRC.

Like I said they are probably cool with crossovers but the C418/Minecraft drama seems to suggest that they do have a company policy to avoid licensed media as much as possible and prefer full ownership over their properties.
 

SPRidley

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,238
Maybe in 2011 they were cool with it, but everything I've seen and heard from Microsoft since (like this thread), just tells me they are probably not going to fund entire games using licensed IP. Indiana Jones was most likely Bethesda and it was before the deal even closed IIRC.

Like I said they are probably cool with crossovers but the C418/Minecraft drama seems to suggest that they do have a company policy to avoid licensed media as much as possible and prefer full ownership over their properties.
Eh, we worked with them and disney last year, and sea of thieves pirates of the caribbean expansion released also at a similar time.
They just released a minions map for minecraft this week made by cyclone, and theres surely more ips coming in the future.

It maybe seems they dont want to use IPs for whole games as they probably make more money and its less expensive, to do it this way, so they dont have any problems with that.
And i know this personally as we have worked with them.
 

Deleted member 93062

Account closed at user request
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Mar 4, 2021
24,767
Eh, we worked with them and disney last year, and sea of thieves pirates of the caribbean expansion released also at a similar time.
They just released a minions map for minecraft this week made by cyclone, and theres surely more ips coming in the future.

It maybe seems they dont want to use IPs for whole games as they probably make more money and its less expensive, to do it this way.
Like I said they are probably cool with crossovers but the C418/Minecraft drama seems to suggest that they do have a company policy to avoid licensed media as much as possible and prefer full ownership over their properties.
The two things you listed were crossovers, and like I said, they seem to be fine with that. However, this interview above and their handling of the C418/Minecraft drama paints a picture that they prefer full control.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,844
Yeah but that's not really a 1st party production, just a timed exclusive deal like FFXVI.
its closer to a No Man's Sky deal than it is to FFXVI. They are actively publishing this version. To this day even after that game and xbox port have been out for years PlayStation is still treating No Man's Sky in terms of advertising as a First Party title with every update.
 
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Nightengale

Nightengale

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,708
Malaysia
Also, we have limited visibility to the projects that SIE 1st party are funding right now. As of now we only know 2 games slated after 2022.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,995
The whole Spider-Man thing is interesting.

Just talked about the MGS4 thing in another thread.

Some intriguing stuff in this book.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,925
its closer to a No Man's Sky deal than it is to FFXVI. They are actively publishing this version. To this day even after that game and xbox port have been out for years PlayStation is still treating No Man's Sky in terms of advertising as a First Party title.
Sony didn't publish NMS, they just had a marketing/timed exclusivity deal. Hello games selfpublished it all platforms. These are all still fundamentally 3rd party produced games even if Sony's helping out. Same for something like Nioh.

I mean, I also wouldn't call games like Octopath Traveler, DQXIS, NMH3, Deadly Premonition 2 or Daemon X Machina 1st party Nintendo games and those all had similar deals in place.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,296
Actually just read the book a few weeks ago, it's really good.

A lot of stuff surrounding some games I didn't know about, including;

- J Allard being one of the best visionaries for the Xbox project

- Hilarious happenings in MS when they made a dakimakura promo product for DoA Xtreme Volleyball

- Kojima Productions actually having a test version of MGS4 on an Xbox 360 devkit that ran well/better than the PS3 version, but they decided against releasing it since it's 50GB (the MGS4 stack of DVDs meme was real)

- Aforementioned MGS4 was never an exclusive.
That's some cool stuff.

Was there anything interested on the Nintendo side?
 

brokenswiftie

Prophet of Truth
Banned
May 30, 2018
2,921
Weird Nintendo wasn't even considered when they ended up doing MUA3 anyway. Honestly they have a real solid track record with licensing IP too (Tetris, SimCity, Fatal Frame, Bayonetta, etc).

Spider-Man came out in 2018
so these talks were probably happening in 2015, 2016

before the switch
during the Wii U era
 

Cth

The Fallen
Oct 29, 2017
1,808
It was fun seeing Bill Rosemann rise from an editor, to writer and then out of the blue head of the gaming stuff.

I remember Brian Michael Bendis was hyping up his contributions, from Ultimate Spider-Man to the cancelled Avengers game.

www.eurogamer.net

See the first-person cooperative Avengers game that never materialised

There are a lot of Marvel Avenger-related films these days but there aren't many games - proper games on consoles or PC…


Shame it never got to hit shelves.
 

0xe0x

Banned
Dec 23, 2021
286
That's some cool stuff.

Was there anything interested on the Nintendo side?
A lot, but nothing we havent known so far. I guess these might do?

I was at a Napa Valley event hosted by Ziff-Davis, and I ended up sitting next to Howard Lincoln. I was at Xbox at the time.

I made mention of the fact that Microsoft had acquired Rare, and Howard goes, "Thank you so much for taking that off our hands."

He thanked us!

I was a little bit worried that he might be upset that we stole this studio out from underneath them, but he was grateful.


—Mike Fischer

They were two very different people with very different styles in very different eras.

What Howard [Lincoln] and Mr. Arakawa created was a family. When Reggie arrived, he was entering the family, and the family dynamic changed a bit. He definitely brought more of a corporate perspective and structure.

When Reggie came, he did what needed to be done and that was to turn it into a company, a corporation. He challenged me in ways that I hadn't been challenged.


—Perrin Kaplan
 

brokenswiftie

Prophet of Truth
Banned
May 30, 2018
2,921
in 2014 actually. The game was already announced with fairly representative footage in 2016 too.

Ah I missed the 2014 part
considering how Wii U was doing I guess they just preferred to have the potential game on more popular platforms of those years
when switch became the massive hit is I guess the same process gave arise to MUA3
 

Sesha

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,825
So is the chapter mostly fluffy, or does it get into the nitty gritty, like the absolute clownshoes way Marvel and Capcom handled MvC:I?