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Vicious17

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,293
and even then... in this game, most of the ways are open to your skill after you get the dash. you can try to wait for a better upgrade or just try to skill your way to many places

hell i even learnt the nail arts AFTER 40h XD i didnt even know there was something like that. you just need to explore and enjoy without concerning about what you dont have, and try to think where can you go with what you actually have/are capable of

Also? And this for people who are playing this, you can bounce on spikes with your down slash. It's useful in a few areas near the beginning (Secret area in the very first place you start in, for example), and lets you access a few areas you shouldn't be able to get to till later.
 

Arcus Felis

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,123
Regarding the "wasting your time" debate: a NPC in the starting village give hints on where you should go (for a while, at least). Sure, the hints remain rather vague, but it can help nonetheless.

More specifically:

IIRC, he will always give you hints that will lead you to new exploration power-ups.
 

ElOdyssey

Member
Oct 30, 2017
713
About 10-11 hours into the game. While I do find the game to be good I don't see it being a masterpiece or even that great. Maybe I am just getting tired of Metroidvanias but it can get frustrating looking for the next destination. I also didn't find Steamdig World 2 that great either so def think it's just me. *shrug*
 

Vicious17

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,293
Small bit of Ending advice for those of you who are completionists:

There are 3 endings total in the game. Only 1 of them is missable. (The bad ending).

The Bad Ending requires you to do the bare minimum to access the final boss, and then kill him

Thats all. For the other endings, you have to do more stuff and they're pretty involved. The good thing is, you can keep going after killing the final boss as if it never happened, so the other 2 endings aren't missable.
 

Fireblend

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,454
Costa Rica
About the "time wasting" complaint, I actually think HK circumvents the issue while remaining ridiculously non-linear in what is a stroke of pure genius.

The map mechanic. Maps are always close to area entrances, and very well hinted at through Cornifer's humming and his paper trails. This makes the act of finding him feel rewarding and engaging without it being a complete freebie for the player, and also one of your first priorities when entering one for the first place. So you get your map, but it's only partially filled, and with the quill you can sit at benches and update it with newly found rooms. So what makes exploration not a waste of time, even if you found one of the (very few) paths that are closed off to you? You backtrack to a bench to save and be able to start a new "expedition" in a new direction, and you still get *something*; the updated map, now a little more filled in.

The usual map mechanics where they get auto-added to your map don't quite work the same way, because they don't make you backtrack. You feel at a loss about what to do next when you hit a wall. But in Hollow Knight, the act of having to go back to a bench reorients and anchors you back at a place you know, or one that you just discovered that will branch off in different directions, and that's genius, IMO, it makes exploration never feel like a waste of time, and it lets backtracking always feel like it has a purpose. It's a small detail but it makes a huge difference.
 

Creamium

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,701
Belgium
About the "time wasting" complaint, I actually think HK circumvents the issue while remaining ridiculously non-linear in what is a stroke of pure genius.

The map mechanic. Maps are always close to area entrances, and very well hinted at through Cornifer's humming and his paper trails. This makes the act of finding him feel rewarding and engaging without it being a complete freebie for the player, and also one of your first priorities when entering one for the first place. So you get your map, but it's only partially filled, and with the quill you can sit at benches and update it with newly found rooms. So what makes exploration not a waste of time, even if you found one of the (very few) paths that are closed off to you? You backtrack to a bench to save and be able to start a new "expedition" in a new direction, and you still get *something*; the updated map, now a little more filled in.

The usual map mechanics where they get auto-added to your map don't quite work the same way, because they don't make you backtrack. You feel at a loss about what to do next when you hit a wall. But in Hollow Knight, the act of having to go back to a bench reorients and anchors you back at a place you know, or one that you just discovered that will branch off in different directions, and that's genius, IMO, it makes exploration never feel like a waste of time, and it lets backtracking always feel like it has a purpose. It's a small detail but it makes a huge difference.

I love the quill mechanic, because it also adds some extra tension while playing. If you sit at a bench the newly explored area gets filled in, but as you're exploring you have no idea how long the area stretches out, if there's a new bench nearby and what the general layout is. The mix of getting updates to your map and still being in the dark for a chunk of time mixes things up quite nicely.
 

Vicious17

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,293
About the "time wasting" complaint, I actually think HK circumvents the issue while remaining ridiculously non-linear in what is a stroke of pure genius.

The map mechanic. Maps are always close to area entrances, and very well hinted at through Cornifer's humming and his paper trails. This makes the act of finding him feel rewarding and engaging without it being a complete freebie for the player, and also one of your first priorities when entering one for the first place. So you get your map, but it's only partially filled, and with the quill you can sit at benches and update it with newly found rooms. So what makes exploration not a waste of time, even if you found one of the (very few) paths that are closed off to you? You backtrack to a bench to save and be able to start a new "expedition" in a new direction, and you still get *something*; the updated map, now a little more filled in.

The usual map mechanics where they get auto-added to your map don't quite work the same way, because they don't make you backtrack. You feel at a loss about what to do next when you hit a wall. But in Hollow Knight, the act of having to go back to a bench reorients and anchors you back at a place you know, or one that you just discovered that will branch off in different directions, and that's genius, IMO, it makes exploration never feel like a waste of time, and it lets backtracking always feel like it has a purpose. It's a small detail but it makes a huge difference.


They've also added pins with I believe the latest update with which you can mark off areas/treasure you can't access yet. I think it's 4 colors, 6 pins of each color. Which adds a lot and prevents the whole "hey, this areas unexplored, I should go back there. Oh wait, right!" thing that I tend to do in metroidvanias because I have a terrible memory.
 

byDoS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,192
About 10-11 hours into the game. While I do find the game to be good I don't see it being a masterpiece or even that great. Maybe I am just getting tired of Metroidvanias but it can get frustrating looking for the next destination. I also didn't find Steamdig World 2 that great either so def think it's just me. *shrug*

No, Steamworld Dig 2 isn't that great actually. It's not just you.

And 10 hours in HK for a first playthrough is like... nothing, specially if you're a more slow paced like me.
 

Deleted member 8674

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,240
I'd like to be able to zoom into the map a little further but other than that, I don't have any real problems with it. I guess people don't like that it's not a perfect representation of each area? That it doesn't always highlight areas that you'll have to return to later?

edit: Oh yeah, it also bugs me that I have to waste a badge slot on a compass. I turn it off for boss fights and that's it.

My only concern before buying was the difficulty and the Dark Souls nature but they got that balance perfectly. But ofcource there will be harder/very difficult chalanges end game. At 17h right now.
 

byDoS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,192
to me it seems like a good decision to make sure you're slightly less powerful for the normal enemies/enemies in new areas than you are when you're fighting bosses.

I disagree. There's no point in trying to balance out your power making you less informed about the world you're exploring.

The compass should be a permanent item.
 

Deleted member 8791

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,383
Hollow Knight hasn't captured me as I thought it would. It's obviously an amazing game and they have probably perfected this heavy exploration and combat focused Metroidvania thing. I'd personally loved to change maps somehow and not make deaths as punishing. I've spent maybe 2h so far just going back to somewhere I died. I love the hard challenges bug having to go back there everytime just sucks the fun out.

Basically I understand people who love it and those like me who are a bit more sceptical. It's quite obviously a game not everybody will enjoy as much as others.
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
I disagree. There's no point in trying to balance out your power making you less informed about the world you're exploring.

The compass should be a permanent item.
Yeah I agree, this is probably my only complaint so far. I like the idea of having to buy and fill maps yourself and all that, but this is just an annoyance... Every time I look at my pins I get annoyed that I'm wasting a slot.
 

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
They've also added pins with I believe the latest update with which you can mark off areas/treasure you can't access yet. I think it's 4 colors, 6 pins of each color. Which adds a lot and prevents the whole "hey, this areas unexplored, I should go back there. Oh wait, right!" thing that I tend to do in metroidvanias because I have a terrible memory.
the colored pins were a great help. i didn't go far in my last playthrough on steam so i didn't feel they were necessary, but later in the game they're great to mark places you know you can get to but you're just missing a certain power, and then revisiting them all after getting a power.

Game is too long for it's own good imo.
45 hours in and i strongly disagree. it's so well designed it never feels like they're expecting you to put time in it that isn't deserved and they haven't earned. i wish it was longer actually. thankfully there's more updates coming.

I disagree. There's no point in trying to balance out your power making you less informed about the world you're exploring.

The compass should be a permanent item.
guess i didn't ever rely on the charms to the point that one extra notch was essential. it was nice to have that extra notch to try some new combo for a boss, but i never thought to myself during normal gameplay that if i had that extra notch things would be much easier. i'm not saying your complaint isn't valid or trying to defend every decision the game makes btw, just that to me it was no biggie.
 
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Deleted member 8674

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,240
About 10-11 hours into the game. While I do find the game to be good I don't see it being a masterpiece or even that great. Maybe I am just getting tired of Metroidvanias but it can get frustrating looking for the next destination. I also didn't find Steamdig World 2 that great either so def think it's just me. *shrug*

SW2 is fanatics. HN managed to top it somehow for me. You know what's funny for? Maybe because I don't have a frame of reference because I didn't play SM or SotN back then and dropped the former quickly on 3DS.

Most recent experience is SW2 and now HK.
 
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VegiHam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,591
I don't have a lot of history with Metroidvanias, but £11 quid is like the cost of a takeaway and this game is getting tons of praise so I reckon I'll give it a go.
 

byDoS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,192
Not a game that would get the bulk of my gaming time. It would have to be a situation where there is a software drought on switch then I might give it a try.

This game is better than almost everything that released on Switch. The only exception I'd make is BotW.

But hey, whatever suits you.
 

Pirateluigi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,870
Not a game that would get the bulk of my gaming time. It would have to be a situation where there is a software drought on switch then I might give it a try.

If you don't like the genre I get it, but this game is so damn fantastic. For only fifteen bucks it is as close to a must buy as anything on the system.
 

Meelow

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,195
I saw a few snippts of gameplay before and I didn't really think much about it and so I looked up a review and got sold right away, just paid for the game and is downloading now!
 

muteant

Member
Nov 1, 2017
145
i am appalled by how consumed i have been by this game. 20 hours in and it yet to hit a bad note. i love how it synthesizes some aspects of the "souls" genre with metroidvaniaism. if anything the aggregate score underplays its greatness.
 
OP
OP
Lelouch0612

Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,200
Another review, from NintendoWorldReport this time :

NWR - 10/10

Hollow Knight's cryptic lore doled out in pieces leads me to believe I saved Hollownest in my ending, but an after-credits screen shows a 73% completion in 27 hours of play. I may have finished, but I'm far from done. I still have tons of upgrades, optional bosses, a true ending and a mantis to overcome. And I'm itching to jump back in.
 

Deleted member 9486

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,867
Reviews and this thread sold me on it.

Will probably start today as I'm souring on Golf Story. Too much fetch quest type busy work between the golfing.
 

Instro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,010
No way! It's actually one of the most content-packed games that I've played where almost none of it feels like filler.

I dunno, I felt the map overall was somewhat padded. Kingdom's Edge, Ancient Basin, and Deepnest in particular all felt like a bit of a slog to get through. Probably doesn't help that some of those were the least interesting in audio/visuals as well.

Reviews and this thread sold me on it.

Will probably start today as I'm souring on Golf Story. Too much fetch quest type busy work between the golfing.

Yeah I was thoroughly bored of Golf Story by the end.
 

Psychotron

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,683
Guys.....holy shit. This is incredible. I've already beaten a main boss and a few that I was just kind of locked in a room with. I'm only a few hours in but I'm in love. Bought the quill and compass and I'm heading back in for more.
 
Dec 23, 2017
8,802

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
based on how many people were sold on the game just in this thread, i have a feeling the game won't leave the number 1 spot in eshop charts for a long time
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,435
BS...where comes this narrative from? you know that all games are time wasters anyway? i really hate this "game doesn´t respect my time" stuff, it´s meme worthy at this point. When there is a game that demands exploration on your own it is suddenly "wasting your time"? so, every game has to provide instant gratification? hilarious...

Nice strawman. Never suggested it needed to provide instant gratification. It does need a better sense of progress. Wasting time backtracking through the entire map to find the next path forward is a time waster
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,435
About 10-11 hours into the game. While I do find the game to be good I don't see it being a masterpiece or even that great. Maybe I am just getting tired of Metroidvanias but it can get frustrating looking for the next destination. I also didn't find Steamdig World 2 that great either so def think it's just me. *shrug*

Curious, did you give Ori and the Blind Forest a try?
 

Deleted member 9486

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,867
Yeah I was thoroughly bored of Golf Story by the end.

I'm actually still playing it today as it picked up a bit with Tidy Park and the Oak whatever manor being a bit of a change of pace and more interesting.

Looking for a good story place to stop and call it a day and fire up Hollow Knight. Maybe when I finish up Tidy Park.
 

NediarPT88

Member
Oct 29, 2017
15,114
I know. The backtracking wasn't meant to be the target of my statement/criticism in the post you're quoting. Its misuse in this game is. Like many others, wandering around looking for the next destination is a pain. I should have framed my comment better

If you look at the map it's pretty clear to see the places that still haven't been fully explored. And with the shortcuts you have at your disposal it's not like you are going to spend 15 minutes backtracking.
 

Dphex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,811
Cologne, Germany
I know. The backtracking wasn't meant to be the target of my statement/criticism in the post you're quoting. Its misuse in this game is. Like many others, wandering around looking for the next destination is a pain. I should have framed my comment better

yeah i can understand that this is maybe not for everybody....but for people who like exploring, finding new areas and skills that open up the paths to those new areas, the game is really sublime. you can even buy map markers in different colours to put on your map everytime you see a possible path that you can´t reach at the moment. that is really a great tool that helps with the backtracking
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
I know. The backtracking wasn't meant to be the target of my statement/criticism in the post you're quoting. Its misuse in this game is. Like many others, wandering around looking for the next destination is a pain. I should have framed my comment better

That's what Metroidvanias are about.

Anyway a hot tip is that when you get a new traversal ability check all the pathways in your map that are half filled.
 

Mcjmetroid

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,843
Limerick, Ireland
It's one of the best Switch games and perfect for handheld. Deserves to be in every top 5 switch game list. It demolishes every indie game I've played on it so far and for the price it's incredible value.

Play with headphones.
 

Dodgerfan74

Member
Dec 27, 2017
2,696
About an hour and a half in so far and it's... fine. Nothing about it is especially noteworthy so far. It definitely feels like Dark Souls Metroidvania though. Metroidvania is one of my favorite genres so hoping it lives up to these reviews/impressions.
 

Mcjmetroid

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,843
Limerick, Ireland
About an hour and a half in so far and it's... fine. Nothing about it is especially noteworthy so far. It definitely feels like Dark Souls Metroidvania though. Metroidvania is one of my favorite genres so hoping it lives up to these reviews/impressions.

It took me about 4 hours to truly get lost in it. It keeps getting better in my opinion. At first I was like you but keep going with it.

That being said the game isn't perfect. I think the save points before bosses is a serious annoyance. The game is challenging but sometimes for the wrong reasons.
 

ElOdyssey

Member
Oct 30, 2017
713
I think one of my biggest gripes is the sparse sections to teleport. Which forces me to reach one side of the map to teleport and while being lost this can be extremely frustrating. But I will say it is a good game I just think my expectations were very high and partly my fault. I do feel this game is leagues better than Steamworld Dig 2 which left me wanting a lot more. I do love the strategy to absorb the souls and either use it for health or attacking with it. The bosses are also very challenging which is definitely appreciated.
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,251
New York City
I kind of don't understand peoples gripes with the map system. Is it that you have to find cornifer to get the map? Isn't that like finding the mapping stations in metroid to get the map? I feel its a clever way to get you to explore with your eyes and not stare at the map to have a sense of direction. After having the ability see the map you associate things you've seen and whats on the map which helps you remember things you might have to come back to later.
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
You'll rarely get lost in this game unless you either haven't been exploring or haven't paid attention to what you've explored. It's always fairly obvious where you have to go next after getting a new upgrade.
About an hour and a half in so far and it's... fine. Nothing about it is especially noteworthy so far. It definitely feels like Dark Souls Metroidvania though. Metroidvania is one of my favorite genres so hoping it lives up to these reviews/impressions.
Honestly I was feeling the same at first. The game didn't really start blowing me away until I made it past the first boss and map.
 

Cup O' Tea?

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,603
I'm 26 hours in and addicted to this game. Team Cherry are located in the same town as me too so it's nice to support some locals.