Hollow Knight Switch's Input Lag bums me out

[Deleted member 10737]

Yeah, this is really a huge issue especially when no professional tests are actually being done. I really have a hard time believing people who blame the misses on lag instead of it just being, well, you made a mistake.

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it's just that the existence of this thread paints this picture of the game having an abnormal amount of lag, being unplayable, etc. and we all know many people just see the title and op and move on. had i not bought the game already i may have made a decision to not buy it just buy seeing this thread. don't know, on one hand people obviously have the right to complain if they sense there's something wrong, but a game being singled out for input lag that's completely in line with 90% of other games feels wrong.

 

[Dphex]

*IMPORTANT UPDATE*

It has been brought to my attention that my original calculations on the videos were wrong. I have narrowed it down to a known issue with VLC where the "next frame" feature causes either freezes or jumps in the video (and sometimes visual corruption). In short, it's not reliable.

I redid calculations using WMP (using Ctrl+click on play button), and here's the new results:

Hollow Knight jump - 7 frames delay (116.66ms)
Hollow Knight attack - 7 frames delay (116.66ms)

Blossom Tales shield - 4 frames delay (66.66ms)
Blossom Tales sword - 4 frames delay (66.66ms)

Wildly different, but still, Hollow Knight still has almost double the input lag of Blossom Tales.

I have also updated the OP with these findings. Feel free to raise concerns if you have any. I wish someone with actual professional lag-measuring hardware would chime in. Digital Foundry?

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did you test Super Mario Odyssey again?

 

[Hero]

did you test Super Mario Odyssey again?

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I like how the OP has had other people (including developers) call him out on his stance and continue pointing it out and instead of addressing it he keeps trying to do new videos or calculations.

 

[AtomicShroom]

OP reads unnecessarily dramatic.

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I'm a dramatic person. But seriously, it annoys the living hell out of me. It's all I notice when playing the game.

The deniers in this thread remind me of climate change deniers. Even when presented with clear evidence, they still pretend there's no issue because "I don't see it, it doesn't affect me!"

 

[Deleted member 10737]

The deniers in this thread remind me of climate change deniers. Even when presented with clear evidence, they still pretend there's no issue because "I don't see it, it doesn't affect me!"

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lol, you believe in climate change too?

Spoiler

i'm kidding of course

 

[AtomicShroom]

I like how the OP has had other people (including developers) call him out on his stance and continue pointing it out and instead of addressing it he keeps trying to do new videos or calculations.

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If you're so sure I'm wrong, why don't you produce counter-evidence then? Words are empty.

 

[NediarPT88]

If you're so sure I'm wrong, why don't you produce counter-evidence then? Words are empty.

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Did you use that video to test it?

If so you might want to do another, because as I've pointed out before when your finger press the button the knight was still in his landing animation. Might be just 1 frame, but it's still something.

Slightly crouching after landing:

Neutral position:

I'm not sure why you did the video like that, with consecutive jumps. Just stand still and jump once like other people in the thread have been doing to prove their point.

 

[InfiniDragon]

Yeah, so I tested on my brother's PC version (he uses a Switch Pro Controller on PC), it's definitely input lag on jumps in the Switch version sadly.

Jumps were instant and precise on PC for me, instead of that slight hiccup on Switch. I hope the devs notice and are able to get it corrected.

 

[Ereineon]

i think that what should be analysed first is if there is a difference between the switch version and the pc version. you are trying to prove if there is something with your switch or if its something general, so i think that should be the first thing you should try.

after that, if you insist on comparing the game with others, compare inside the same genre. i dont see how a comparison between blossom tales and hollow knight is relevant as they are completly different type of games. use oddysey or other platformers as reference to have a proper context.

that said, EVEN with all those studies, it speaks volumes that is something so neligible that almost nobody cares/notices, you should think a bit about "the drama" XD
its ok to point out things, even make anaylisis...
we all love those framerate comparisons and the like, even if they could mean more or less for each person, at least its more info to know what you are buying... but info SHOULD be meaningful, and for that you need a proper context. Thats what most of the people here are complaining about.

Saying the game has imput lag (all games have) without properly adressing that fact shows a completly different argument

 

[808s & Villainy]

Yeah, so I tested on my brother's PC version (he uses a Switch Pro Controller on PC), it's definitely input lag on jumps in the Switch version sadly.

Jumps were instant and precise on PC for me, instead of that slight hiccup on Switch. I hope the devs notice and are able to get it corrected.

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Have you actually done a video capture and frame analysis like other people in here have?

 

[NediarPT88]

Jumps were instant and precise on PC for me, instead of that slight hiccup on Switch. I hope the devs notice and are able to get it corrected.

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On PC there's a very noticeable difference with v-sync on or off.

With v-sync off it feels extremely responsive (though the tearing can be annoying in my laptop).

 

[AtomicShroom]

Did you use that video to test it?

If so you might want to do another, because as I've pointed out before when your finger press the button the knight was still in his landing animation. Might be just 1 frame, but it's still something.

Slightly crouching after landing:

Neutral position:

I'm not sure why you did the video like that, with consecutive jumps. Just stand still and jump once like other people in the thread have been doing to prove their point.

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Did you check the video where I measured the attack button?

 

[InfiniDragon]

Have you actually done a video capture and frame analysis like other people in here have?

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Nah, I don't have the gear to do so. So if that invalidates my experience I can understand, but both my brother and I did notice (he played and 100% cleared on PC). When I mentioned it he was like "that's not a thing", then tried it on Switch and loaded the PC version to compare.

I wish I did have a way of getting frame data.

 

[NediarPT88]

Did you check the video where I measured the attack button?

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I did. You should have done something like that for the jumping istead of the other one.

 

[AtomicShroom]

I did. You should have done something like that for the jumping istead of the other one.

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Sure, but in the end it doesn't matter as the lag is the same in both.

 

[AfropunkNyc]

No input lag for me...smh

 

[AtomicShroom]

No input lag for me...smh

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By all means, please record a slo-mo video of you hitting the attack/jump button on your magical Switch.

 

[Deleted member 8791]

I can be sensitive to input lag, I've had issues when I've been speedrunning where lag from TV has thrown me off big time etc. But yeah, as we've come to agree here it's perfectly normal in Hollow Knight. If you're so sensitive to lag this is noticeable to you then I truly feel sorry for you. Can't be fun.

 

[Buggy Loop]

I agree that the thread should be renamed « i'm picky about input lag for 99% of the games » or to die down. It's potential bad press and unwarranted criticism for hollow knight for such a small indie team. If games in general have that kind of input lag, by all means bitch about it in a general way, without pointing fingers at a small team.

 

[AtomicShroom]

I can be sensitive to input lag, I've had issues when I've been speedrunning where lag from TV has thrown me off big time etc. But yeah, as we've come to agree here it's perfectly normal in Hollow Knight. If you're so sensitive to lag this is noticeable to you then I truly feel sorry for you. Can't be fun.

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In the SNES Classic hacking thread, I'm part of a minority of people who stick to and vouch for the default emulator in the SNES Classic (Canoe) instead of RetroArch, because it has amazingly low input lag compared to RetroArch, whereas many people report being unaffected by the input lag in RetroArch, despite it being well-documented. It sucks. Being competitive at Tetris Attack on SNES is the game that got me being aware of input lag in most emulators in the late 90s. I can't unfeel input lag since. :(

 

[AtomicShroom]

I agree that the thread should be renamed « i'm picky about input lag for 99% of the games » or to die down. It's potential bad press and unwarranted criticism for hollow knight for such a small indie team. If games in general have that kind of input lag, by all means bitch about it in a general way, without pointing fingers at a small team.

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Do you have a source for that 99% figure?

 

[FriendlyNPC]

The amount of dismissive people in here is pretty discouraging. The op is taking his time taking actual measurements, comparing them to a another (2d platforming) game with less input lag and people are just like "Well, I don't feel it so it can't be there!".

He is not taking away the enjoyment you had while playing this game. He is not attacking your favorite platform. Stop acting like babies.

 

[NediarPT88]

Do you have a source for that 99% figure?

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How does Hollow Knight input lag compares to the other games you own on Switch? (besides the one you used for this comparison)

Are they also "ungodly"?

 

[Buggy Loop]

Do you have a source for that 99% figure?

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Yes, here, look at me roll my eyes into orbit while you go ahead and make claims of « ungodly » lag.

There's enough claims that it's in the normal range of input lag than counter arguments that it's anormal. If you want to ignore posts because you hang onto « 99%», while you know really well that i pulled it out of « general game experience », common sense and stats we've seen so far for games, rather than a compilation of all games out there and their input lag because for sure nobody is anal enough in the world to bother making such a list, then go ahead and continue on your little defensive stance and derail the thread. Nobody would give a shit if you made it a discussion in general. Go make that list of input lag, it seems we found 'that' person.

 

[Liquid Snake]

It's basically already on sale. $15 for a game with ~50+ hours of content and more free DLC coming.

The OP's observations are very overstated in practice. Most people haven't noticed any input lag whatsoever, but even so, ~60ms is nothing even in competitive environments, which this isn't.

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Just want to say... I took this advice, purchased the game. And that fucking input lag....

Spoiler

.. is a non-issue. Also, the game is way better than I was expecting. Wow.

 

[AtomicShroom]

How does Hollow Knight input lag compares to the other games you own on Switch? (besides the one you used for this comparison)

Are they also "ungodly"?

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It's ungodly because it bothers me. The input lag in Blossom Tales didn't bother me, hence why I didn't make a thread about it. I don't have many games on Switch, so I can't do an exhaustive comparison, but I know from experience that it's above average for a 60fps 2D sidescroller. I don't have that problem with Axiom Verge or Circle of the Moon on PS4 for example.

It's a quantifiable defect and you guys act like it's something that can't be fixed or addressed, yet another game on Switch managed to pull it off, therefore it is possible. Why settle for less? Why not strive for excellence?

If they would just release a patch that fixes it, I would be more than happy to create a thread praising the multitude of positive virtues of the game. As it stands right now, it's a serious blemish. A technical mishap. One that is possible to avoid, so why not do something about it? They're not gonna fix it unless enough people complain about it. So here we are.

 

[Yoshimitsu126]

Missed the chance to have a pun in the thread title.

 

[F34R]

Can you test LEGO City Undercover on Switch? That game seems worse than any I've ever played, period.

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If there's input lag in that game, it hasn't affected me playing it.

 

[StrangeRoboMemory]

Only played it on PC, but very unfortunate if true about the Switch release. It's a game that absolutely requires precision and being able to turn on a dime.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

It's ungodly because it bothers me. The input lag in Blossom Tales didn't bother me, hence why I didn't make a thread about it. I don't have many games on Switch, so I can't do an exhaustive comparison, but I know from experience that it's above average for a 60fps 2D sidescroller. I don't have that problem with Axiom Verge or Circle of the Moon on PS4 for example.

It's a quantifiable defect and you guys act like it's something that can't be fixed or addressed, yet another game on Switch managed to pull it off, therefore it is possible. Why settle for less? Why not strive for excellence?

If they would just release a patch that fixes it, I would be more than happy to create a thread praising the multitude of positive virtues of the game. As it stands right now, it's a serious blemish. A technical mishap. One that is possible to avoid, so why not do something about it? They're not gonna fix it unless enough people complain about it. So here we are.

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It may be related to Unity. If so, then there really isn't much the devs can do.

They are also a really small team and are working on new content for the game already, since the thing you are asking for is probably not noticeable or bothersome enough to 99% of players you may have to accept that it may not be 'fixed'.

 

[NediarPT88]

The input lag in Blossom Tales didn't bother me, hence why I didn't make a thread about it. I don't have many games on Switch, so I can't do an exhaustive comparison, but I know from experience that it's above average for a 60fps 2D sidescroller. I don't have that problem with Axiom Verge or Circle of the Moon on PS4 for example.

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If that's actually true then this thread is fine. From reading the comments I got the impression that the input lag present here is average, nothing that justifies this game from being singled out.

 

[DanteMenethil]

Those new tests seems much more realistic. Honestly a 1f switch game was completely bonkers to me but I didn't felt like calling it out and opening that can of worms. At that point I'd think it's a case of Hollow Knight on switch having vsync ON.

From reading the comments I got the impression that the input lag present here is average, nothing that justifies this game from being singled out.

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Yeah we were going on with his 4f input lag video and that is actually very good inputlag-wise.

 

[AtomicShroom]

It may be related to Unity. If so, then there really isn't much the devs can do.

They are also a really small team and are working on new content for the game already, since the thing you are asking for is probably not noticeable or bothersome enough to 99% of players you may have to accept that it may not be 'fixed'.

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Do you have a source for that 99% figure? I saw many posts of people agreeing and thanking me for creating this thread.

 

[AtomicShroom]

Those new tests seems much more realistic. Honestly a 1f switch game was completely bonkers to me but I didn't felt like calling it out and opening that can of worms. At that point I'd think it's a case of Hollow Knight on switch having vsync ON.

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Blossom Tales doesn't have any screen tearing,
so it has vsync. My (uneducated) best guess is that Hollow Knight is using a vsync method that buffers frames, like double or triple buffering, instead of wait-for-vblank.

 

[LinkSlayer64]

It's ungodly because it bothers me. The input lag in Blossom Tales didn't bother me, hence why I didn't make a thread about it. I don't have many games on Switch, so I can't do an exhaustive comparison, but I know from experience that it's above average for a 60fps 2D sidescroller. I don't have that problem with Axiom Verge or Circle of the Moon on PS4 for example.

It's a quantifiable defect and you guys act like it's something that can't be fixed or addressed, yet another game on Switch managed to pull it off, therefore it is possible. Why settle for less? Why not strive for excellence?

If they would just release a patch that fixes it, I would be more than happy to create a thread praising the multitude of positive virtues of the game. As it stands right now, it's a serious blemish. A technical mishap. One that is possible to avoid, so why not do something about it? They're not gonna fix it unless enough people complain about it. So here we are.

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Do you have a source for that 99% figure? I saw many posts of people agreeing and thanking me for creating this thread.

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You also have plenty of people coming in and saying it is not an issue.
Why not do a test with your PS4 platformers to add further evidence? It cannot hurt.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Do you have a source for that 99% figure? I saw many posts of people agreeing and thanking me for creating this thread.

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Obviously not, but the consensus here is that it isn't an issue and the level of input lag is normal. I've been playing the game a lot the past few days and I certainly dont notice it.

I'm just saying you should be realistic about this, the game probably wont be patched to 'fix' this because you cant even be sure that it's 'fixable' or that it's not intended to play that way.

 

[Mit-]

I've missed jumps a lot in this game, and especially dislike falling and having to dash through a narrow gap to proceed. For some reason that's extra hard for me in this game. I have a hard time predicting when exactly I should do it. Too early and I die, too late and I definitely die, but the timing is never when the character is actually lined up to dash.

I'd like to see a jump comparison between Shovel Knight and this game, though. Taking video of this game only doesn't help too much. If Blossom Tales is so much better then take a video of jumping in that game as well.

 

[AtomicShroom]

You also have plenty of people coming in and saying it is not an issue.
Why not do a test with your PS4 platformers to add further evidence? It cannot hurt.

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Well if only I had infinite time. Also I'm suspecting that filming a CRT HDTV at 240fps will produce very annoying flickering, but sure I'll try when I get the chance.

 

[AtomicShroom]

I've missed jumps a lot in this game, and especially dislike falling and having to dash through a narrow gap to proceed. For some reason that's extra hard for me in this game. I have a hard time predicting when exactly I should do it. Too early and I die, too late and I definitely die, but the timing is never when the character is actually lined up to dash.

I'd like to see a jump comparison between Shovel Knight and this game, though. Taking video of this game only doesn't help too much. If Blossom Tales is so much better then take a video of jumping in that game as well.

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Oh yeah Shovel Knight (have it on WiiU) is legit and has minimal input lag from what I remember. I'll add it to the list of "waste my time" comparison videos.

 

[Mit-]

Oh yeah Shovel Knight (have it on WiiU) is legit and has minimal input lag from what I remember. I'll add it to the list of "waste my time" comparison videos.

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Lol if it's on a different system or television forget it. You need to compare a game that feels okay on the same system and same screen.

 

[AtomicShroom]

Lol if it's on a different system or television forget it. You need to compare a game that feels okay on the same system and same screen.

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So what you're saying is that the Switch has inherent input lag that is higher than any system ever made up to this point? Oooo-kayyyyyy

 

[LinkSlayer64]

Oh yeah Shovel Knight (have it on WiiU) is legit and has minimal input lag from what I remember. I'll add it to the list of "waste my time" comparison videos.

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Rude, it was only a suggestion, stop coming into the thread to defend your position if your time is so precious. I don't have a fancy 240 frame per second function on my phone to test stuff, otherwise I'd start compiling my own list of frame lag.

 

[Skittzo]

The amount of dismissive people in here is pretty discouraging. The op is taking his time taking actual measurements, comparing them to a another (2d platforming) game with less input lag and people are just like "Well, I don't feel it so it can't be there!".

He is not taking away the enjoyment you had while playing this game. He is not attacking your favorite platform. Stop acting like babies.

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Blossom Tales is not a 2D Platformer, it's a completely different genre.

 

[Mit-]

So what you're saying is that the Switch has inherent input lag that is higher than any system ever made up to this point? Oooo-kayyyyyy

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Uh no lol. Honestly I'm on your side here and trying to help lol.

But, the Switch's screen may have inherent input lag. Testing several games is a good judge of that. Also, almost everyone's TV has input lag of some sort, unless you're on a CRT. So if you test on a television or different TV it doesn't help much.

The best test is to get another 2D platformer on the same system and screen, and do the same video test. If you don't have that at the moment that's fine, but that would undoubtedly be the best test.

 

[AtomicShroom]

Blossom Tales is not a 2D Platformer, it's a completely different genre.

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I said sidescroller, not platformer. The screens slide from slide to slide. It's a sidescroller.

 

[AfropunkNyc]

By all means, please record a slo-mo video of you hitting the attack/jump button on your magical Switch.

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By chance what for? I play both versions PC and switch and haven't noticed a difference.

 

[AtomicShroom]

Uh no lol. Honestly I'm on your side here and trying to help lol.

But, the Switch's screen may have inherent input lag. Testing several games is a good judge of that. Also, almost everyone's TV has input lag of some sort, unless you're on a CRT. So if you test on a television or different TV it doesn't help much.

The best test is to get another 2D platformer on the same system and screen, and do the same video test. If you don't have that at the moment that's fine, but that would undoubtedly be the best test.

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People are never happy. I first felt the input lag when playing docked to my CRT HDTV with wireless joycons. People said it was Bluetooth interference or my TV, so I tried with connected joycons on the Switch directly, and now people say it's the Switch's LCD screen that is to blame (never mind the fact that Blossom Tales doesn't have the problem). How do you wanna explain that?

 

[AtomicShroom]

By chance what for? I play both versions PC and switch and haven't noticed a difference.

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Many people haven't felt climate change either. Hard cold quantifiable scientific stats or bust.

 

[NediarPT88]

In my case on PC it's very easy to detect input lag with v-sync on or off. Game feels considerably more responsive with it off, though I played with on for the most part since the tearing was bad. It's easy to adapt one way or the other for me.

 

[AtomicShroom]

It may be related to Unity. If so, then there really isn't much the devs can do.

They are also a really small team and are working on new content for the game already,

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And is that supposed to be an excuse? The Blossom Tales team is also very small, and they pulled it off.