Horizon Zero Dawn is one of the best selling female lead game of all time. Will at least this convince more publishers to do the right thing?

[Melchiah]

Games sell well because they're good, not because of the gender of their leads.
Sure, it can be a factor, but it doesn't make or break a game.

Come to think of it, are there any excellent, poorly selling games with female leads?
I guess maybe Beyond Good & Evil?

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Regarding the bolded, Horizon's lead definitely made the game better for me, and also got me more interested in it prior to its release. In comparison, the lead in Days Gone actually has the opposite effect on me, and makes me less interested in the game. The gruff males have just become a tiresome trope in action games, and dystopian fiction in general. It's always amusing in something like The Walking Dead series, that male characters apparently can't find a razor to shave, yet female characters have their legs shaved. 😃

 

[NightShift]

"Right" is not the right word but I do agree that Horizon makes a great example of why the gender of the protagonist does not matter most of the time. It's hard to imagine it selling even better than it did if it starred a guy. Although I do think having a female lead GTA would negatively effect sales because of the kind of audience that series attracts.

 

[Thorrgal]

Does it matter if it is 1M above or below Tom Raider for the point the OP is trying to make?? Lol

 

[CampFreddie]

IMO, Aloy is a great character because she's written as a woman, rather than as a sex object for the (assumed male) player to drool over, or as a "sex-doesn't-matter" voiceless blank slate.
I'm glad that so many people like her and that the high sales will mean studios taking more "risks" with their protagonist designs, rather than assuming that the audience is male and all men/boys want to play as a manly hero/anti-hero.

 

[Nashira]

Make a great game with great characters. Race and sex won't play much of a role if you do that.

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It does not matter if a game is led by a man or woman as long as it is good. Gender does not measure the quality of a game.

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Games sell well because they're good, not because of the gender of their leads.
Sure, it can be a factor, but it doesn't make or break a game.

Come to think of it, are there any excellent, poorly selling games with female leads?
I guess maybe Beyond Good & Evil?

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I think the right thing is to make interesting and compelling characters regardless of sex. I don't think you should develop any kind of character with the mindset of appeasing a particular crowd, you should do it because you want to and because you've got a great idea.

What I think characters like Lara, Aloy, Senua and although she isn't the lead character Sadie Adler, have added to the industry is ideas. They would've inspired the minds of the writers to create some wonderful females and we'll gradually see more and more representation because the writer wants to, not because they're politically pressured to.

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imo H:ZD is one of the rare games that was commercially helped by not having a broad "joe videogames" male lead. it was a unique world and setting and the protag complemented it, you knew you weren't in for a standard far cry-ish/post apocalyptic experience which has no shortage of real estate this gen

i mean chalk it up as a win for diversity and good on GG for not coasting on focus group peace of mind but main takeaway from the game's success should be run with your original vision from the outset

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Only that it sold well because it was an awesome game regardless of protagonist gender. I hope it convinces more people to make awesome games

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Has nothing to do with the female lead

The game sold that well as a new IP because it is an incredible good game that is more than solid in all its points.
It had really good marketing and hype behind it too because Sony knows how to do these things.

GG and Sony brought a really good game to the table.
Thats it.
If Publishers have to learn something then its that good games with good marketing will sell well.
This is something fairly common for their games these days =)

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There sure are a lot of people who want to dismiss the importance of a woman lead in big budget AAA game.

In case you don't get it, of course it's important and significant that a woman lead is able to sell as much as HZD did. It matters a lot to have different perspectives that go outside of the dominant majority way of always centering white men in blockbuster videogames. There are definitely some people who picked it up precisely because it wasn't yet another scruffy white dude shooting things.

 

[N64rob]

So if a game doesn't have a female lead it's not doing "the right thing"?

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My exact thoughts....

 

[Phendrana]

Hopefully. It does feel like things are slowly shifting in the right direction? I'm excited for Control, Bloodstained and Last of Us this year, and then we have Beyond Good and Evil 2 coming at some point. Horizon 2 is inevitable. Apex has some really good representation. It's not enough, but it's happening.

Which is more than can be said for diversity in sexual orientation when it comes to playable characters.

 

[Elephant]

There sure are a lot of people who want to dismiss the importance of a woman lead in big budget AAA game.

In case you don't get it, of course it's important and significant that a woman lead is able to sell as much as HZD did. It matters a lot to have different perspectives that go outside of the dominant majority way of always centering white men in blockbuster videogames. There are definitely some people who picked it up precisely because it wasn't yet another scruffy white dude shooting things.

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To quote myself, from the post that you quoted, because I doubt you actually read it:

What I think characters like Lara, Aloy, Senua and although she isn't the lead character Sadie Adler, have added to the industry is ideas. They would've inspired the minds of the writers to create some wonderful females and we'll gradually see more and more representation because the writer wants to, not because they're politically pressured to.

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[Thera]

☑ white
☑ straight
☑ cis
☑ able-bodied
☐ male


progress

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Able-bodied, yes, but at least not sexualised (which you can add in you list). At least the settings of the game explained the able-body.
Naughty Dog did well with the no white Nadine and Chloé, but they are hot stuff.
At least they have Ellie (and we will see how the next Uncharted will be).

 

[Iztok]

Regarding the bolded, Horizon's lead definitely made the game better for me, and also got me more interested in it prior to its release. In comparison, the lead in Days Gone actually has the opposite effect on me, and makes me less interested in the game. The gruff males have just become a tiresome trope in action games, and dystopian fiction in general. It's always amusing in something like The Walking Dead series, that male characters apparently can't find a razor to shave, yet female characters have their legs shaved. 😃

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That's true for me also, but if it turns out Days Gone is good I'll definitely try it out.
As for HZD, the lead just made sense and definitely made me take notice, even if just from a pure design perspective.

 

[Iztok]

There sure are a lot of people who want to dismiss the importance of a woman lead in big budget AAA game.

In case you don't get it, of course it's important and significant that a woman lead is able to sell as much as HZD did. It matters a lot to have different perspectives that go outside of the dominant majority way of always centering white men in blockbuster videogames. There are definitely some people who picked it up precisely because it wasn't yet another scruffy white dude shooting things.

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Yeah, nice try but in no way I did any of what you allege there.

If your argument against lead gender not affecting actual game quality is that I "dismiss the importance of a woman lead", not only is it a complete non sequitur, you couldn't get to any of that from my post even if it were.

 

[unapersson]

White female appropriating native cultures contextualized differently for the sake of a video game at that

But I'm sleep

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Poor Celts, always forgotten.

 

[plow]

We also had Female Lead in 3 Major Final fantasy Entries ( I count Ashe as the Lead in FF12).

Sooo, i don't see how Horizon being the best selling new Ip will change any of that.

As for the "White Dudes" theme. 2 of the best Selling Games of all Time have Black Lead Charachters. While again not representing much, it still should not be forgotten.

 

[airjoca]

It's up to Rockstar to blow all these minority lead role numbers out of the water with GTAVI.

After it sells a gazillion, there'll be no more "marketing excuses".

 

[poliwhirl]

10M -> one of the best selling female lead game of all time.

I am assuming, that the right thing is to make more games with female leads. But were is the logic in this question? If this was the worst selling female lead game at 10M, than this question would make sense. Right now it seems, that plenty of games with male leads are achieving (and surpassing) what is considered to be outstanding achievement for a game with a female lead.
I mean, yes, HZD performed great and, yes, publishers should make more good games with female leads. But way to mess up with phrasing, OP. Worst possible angle you could look at this situation.

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Yeah, pretty much what I was thinking. It's even bolded in the OP that, statistically, solely male led games sell 75% better than solely female led games. The question no one wants to ask based off this information is "Could Horizon have sold closer to 17.5m if Aloy had been male?"

I'm really glad she's not; I recognise the importance of a high-profile game having a female lead and succeeding, and I hope it can be the start of a trend towards more diverse games that can reach wider audiences, tell new stories and maybe even inspire potential future developers. But as it's framed in the OP, I don't think Horizon being one of the best selling female led games is going to spark that change on its own, unfortunately.

 

[IronicSonic]

Are there more female writers and lead creators in videogames industry as well? IMO that's as important as sales

 

[Deleted member 8852]

As long as the same game would have sold more with a male lead, that isn't going to happen.

 

[-Amon-]

Give me a good game, i'll play it even if the lead is a rock.

 

[Loudninja]

Give me a good game, i'll play it even if the lead is a rock.

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Has nothing to do with this topic.

As long as the same game would have sold more with a male lead, that isn't going to happen.

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Some of you really not getting the point here.Also this a odd point to make when games rarely hit 10 million.

 

[IIFloodyII]

Poor Celts, always forgotten.

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Extra funny as Aloy's tribe is as, if not more inspired by the Celts and Scandinavian tribes as they are Native American tribes.

 

[Tovarisc]

As long as the same game would have sold more with a male lead, that isn't going to happen.

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Would it have tho?

Pretty sure we can't really prove it one way or another.

 

[The Artisan]

What I also really like about Aloy is that she's not sexualized. GG didn't design with some skimpy slutty outfit, but still made her cool and attractive

 

[Deleted member 8852]

Some of you really not getting the point here.Also this a odd point to make when games rarely hit 10 million.

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No, I'm getting the point. I'm happy we got Aloy, I just don't think that HZD having a female lead will be what publishers take away from its success story.

Would it have tho?

Pretty sure we can't really prove it one way or another.

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Maybe? I wouldn't be surprised given the history of this industry.

 

[truly101]

The RE games with exclusively female protagonists sold worse than the ones that didn't. RE3 sold worse than RE2. Code Veronica sold worse than both. The RE: Revelations games didn't sell very well either. The Dino Crisis games never matched RE's success. If I was a Capcom suit, I would assume that RE games with both male and female protagonists are likely to sell better than ones with exclusively female protagonists.

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Out of all those games you mentioned, only RE3 and the first Dino Crisis (which sold better than the second) was the only one to have an exclusive female lead, all the others had a mixed cast. Hmmmm. And I guess its now ERA revisionist history that RE3 was somehow a bomb despite just the PS version selling 3.5 million copies, ths is the 3rd time i've seen this mentioned. Its been ported to a ton of systems and released digitally so I assume that number is probably higher by now.

 

[Deleted member 15447]

RDR 3 starring Sadie will help that :)

 

[Pankratous]

T

Tlou 2 will lead the industry but I would prefer games with gender option and customization

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Ew, no thanks.

I want a character that is curated and canon. Don't care much about the gender as long as it's what the developer intended.

 

[TheGhost]

I prefer the games to have options.
I use to play through each Mass Effect twice, one playthrough with MaleShep and FemaleShep

Did the same thing with Far Cry 5.

Obviously games like Tomb Raider that wouldn't work.

 

[WestEgg]

It's up to Rockstar to blow all these minority lead role numbers out of the water with GTAVI.

After it sells a gazillion, there'll be no more "marketing excuses".

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Rockstar already has done crazy well with a minority lead, CJ in GTA San Andreas and Franklin in GTA 5.

 

[Acquiescence]

T


Ew, no thanks.

I want a character that is curated and canon. Don't care much about the gender as long as it's what the developer intended.

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Amen.

 

[Deleted member 1589]

The posts about HZD having cultural appropriation issues is a good reminder that being progressive doesn't make you incapable of being dumb.

 

[BarryFishFinger]

Depends if you think HZD shifted this many games because of the female lead or in spite of. I suspect most publishers will still think the latter. Or neither, maybe gender of the lead was irrelevant.

No way to know how different the figures would be with a male lead; I wonder if the amount of sadsacks who avoided buying it because of a female lead is outweighed by people buying it specifically because a female lead interested them.

 

[Punpun]

It didn't sell well because of the female protagonist. It sold well because it's a great game. A male protagonist wouldn't change that.

 

[astro]

No just for women, either. There are plenty of other types of people who need greater representation too.

My exact thoughts....

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So if a game doesn't have a female lead it's not doing "the right thing"?

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What?

The context here is "better representation". The "right thing" being "more of it".

Did you really not understand this?

 

[Punpun]

☑ white
☑ straight
☑ cis
☑ able-bodied
☐ male


progress

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Come on, man.

 

[astro]

I wonder how many of the people ITT (and threads like these) saying "the gender doesn't matter to me" are people with an abundance of representation in games....

 

[blinky]

It didn't sell well because of the female protagonist. It sold well because it's a great game. A male protagonist wouldn't change that.

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My thoughts exactly.

RE2 is another more recent example. Claire is a pretty awesome character for reasons that have nothing to do with her gender.

 

[SofNascimento]

Hopefully, but I doubt that, it's a single game, and I wonder if the belief in the industry is that it would sold even more if it had a male protagonist. I do believe it might be more common to choose a main character, although it shouldn't be something as bland as Far Cry 5. I look foward to see how Rage 2 will do.

 

[Hey Please]

Let me make this simple: As long as you're giving back to the culture where the specific thing originated at it is not cultural appropriation.

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This is fair. However, it can be much easier said than done in some cases. In the case of HZD, given it is inspired by various cultures (ranging from east asian to nordic to inuit to native americans) instead of imitating them, the most I can think they can do is to put their sources in acknowledgement.

☑ white
☑ straight
☑ cis
☑ able-bodied
☐ male


progress

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Yes, it has ways to go. However, it is strong start. Commercial successes allow developers to hit back against marketing regressives who have generally been made accountable for rejecting female leads because of commercial viability concerns.

There sure are a lot of people who want to dismiss the importance of a woman lead in big budget AAA game.

In case you don't get it, of course it's important and significant that a woman lead is able to sell as much as HZD did. It matters a lot to have different perspectives that go outside of the dominant majority way of always centering white men in blockbuster videogames. There are definitely some people who picked it up precisely because it wasn't yet another scruffy white dude shooting things.

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Are you surprised by this? You should look at the thread that raised questions about the lack of racial and gender diversity in Squadron 42 and it was littered with similar response. Fact is, these people, almost all exclusively boys/men have been so accustomed to status quo that they believe that it is "the normal". Equating female lead with "a rock" or "don't care" shows the depth of apathy that runs within the gaming culture.

And that when you challenge the norm by putting in the title "right thing" you invite immediate defensive reactions from certain people/men/boys who fail to understand that perhaps not trying for more equitable representation for women is perhaps "less right" than supporting so.

This culture of status quo is inherently regressive and toxic. And as evidenced by the responses in this thread, gaming culture continues to be trash (especially now that notable publishers are joining the fray on the side of status quo under the guise of being edgy).

 

[Tovarisc]

☑ white
☑ straight
☑ cis
☑ able-bodied
☐ male

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Straight?

 

[Rodjer]

Publishers are already doing the "right thing".

I mean only in the recent 3-4 years we had/we will have

Emily Kaldwin as a lead in Dishonored 2
Billie Lurk as a lead in Dishonored Death of the outsider
2B and A2 in Nier Automata
Senua in Hellblade
Chloe and Nadine in Uncharted Lost Legacy
Iden Versio is the lead in Star Wars Battlefront II campaign
Prey let you choose male or female
Kassandra in Assassin's Creed Origins is the canon lead
Jade is apparently the main lead in Gears 5
Control main lead is a female
Wolfenstein Youngblood has Blazko daughters as lead characters

+ a lot of indie titles

 

[Deleted member 29354]

Publishers should create great stories and gameplay that accentuate a female lead purposefully, not just because it is in vogue or people perceive it to be "the right thing to do"

 

[SofNascimento]

Publishers are already doing the "right thing".

I mean only in the recent 3-4 years we had/we will have

Emily Kaldwin as a lead in Dishonored 2
Billie Lurk as a lead in Dishonored Death of the outsider
2B and A2 in Nier Automata
Senua in Hellblade
Chloe and Nadine in Uncharted Lost Legacy
Iden Versio is the lead in Star Wars Battlefront II campaign
Prey let you choose male or female
Kassandra in Assassin's Creed Origins is the canon lead
Jade is apparently the main lead in Gears 5
Control main lead is a female
Wolfenstein Youngblood has Blazko daughters as lead characters

+ a lot of indie titles

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Now see how much that represents of all games out there.

I do like to believe there are more females leads out there today. Control is an interesting example. After I don't know how many games Remedy finally decided to have a female lead (although Mona Sax in MP2 is awesome, a shame she wasn't back in 3).

 

[Deleted member 47654]

The truth will be seen with Gears 5, Horizon ZD never got hate towards its female lead, Gears 5 will have a female lead in the most macho dudebro saga of all time and the hate is fluid in places like YouTube or the Gears forums, this game will need to build a new fanbase if it wants to succed. Hope the game does great because Kait was the best character in Gears 4 and she deserves it.

 

[Deleted member 47654]

Now see how much

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Market doesnt work that way, the vast majority of people who buys AAA games are still men. If games like Gears 5 or TLOU2 help to get more women into gaming we will see good results of this initiative, if not... I dont know.

 

[Castlemadeofsand]

I feel like almost every game ive played lately thats coming out has a female lead. also i dont agree with your "its the right thing" line of thought. this is a creative medium, fuck putting those constraints on it

 

[Red Devil]

BTW, are there any games where we play as a fat dude / girl ?

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Karnov?

 

[Hey Please]

Straight?

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Well, although her taste in partern's gender/s has not yet been explicitly revealed, through her many dialogues and demeanor, I got a sense that she likes Varl.

 

[aevanhoe]

Sadly, no. I wish. I prefer female characters most of the time, but mate characters are more popular. A lot more people chose Alexios over Kassandra, Leon over Claire, etc. I do hope that changes and Aloy is my most favorite character in gaming. Yup. I just love her and what she represents (not even related to her gender).

 

[Tovarisc]

Well, although her taste in partern's gender/s has not yet been explicitly revealed, through her many dialogues and demeanor, I got a sense that she likes Varl.

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And flirted quite a bit with Petra and Vanasha as they flirted her sooo... calling Aloy just flat straight feels off.

But yeah, Varl got more obvious love interest nods which I found somewhat funny considering how little screen time he has and how little he develops as character when compared to most of the cast.

 

[aevanhoe]

☑ white
☑ straight
☑ cis
☑ able-bodied
☐ male


progress

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While I like diversity in games, unlike some of the categories you mention here, women are literally half of the population, so the fact that we have so few female leads is especially bad, moreso than other groups, IMO (same could be said for non-white characters, too). But true, we should have more diverse leads in more ways than one.