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House Dems will vote on a resolution in response to Ilhan Omar’s Israel comments
- Thread starter D.Dragoon
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My opinion on Omar is the same as it was the last time we were having this debate (so, like, last week?):
I wish she saw Twitter as a place to be as careful and deliberate as she would be if she were speaking on the House floor, because that's really what it is on a subject as delicate as this. Because by not being deliberate (and, yes, somewhat careless) on where she stands and what she's saying, she's somewhat become this blank canvass on which everyone's projecting their shit.
So you have bad faith conservatives decrying her for alleged anti-Semitism and for deliberate use of anti-Semitic language. Which, that's not what she's doing.
But then you have people defending her by propping up arguments I have yet to see her make and linking to Mediums/youtube videos/term papers that lay out critiques of Israel with a precision, clarity and focus that I have yet to see come from her. And it's like...Omar's not doing this either. She's throwing up alley-oops on Twitter and doing a frankly terrible job at it. I mean, take out the "was this anti-Semitism?" debate and Omar's response to Lowey's very measured tweets still wasn't very appropriate.
And the result of this lack of precision is that at the end of the day, I see very little of Omar herself, just the continuation of a debate that's been going.
I wish she saw Twitter as a place to be as careful and deliberate as she would be if she were speaking on the House floor, because that's really what it is on a subject as delicate as this. Because by not being deliberate (and, yes, somewhat careless) on where she stands and what she's saying, she's somewhat become this blank canvass on which everyone's projecting their shit.
So you have bad faith conservatives decrying her for alleged anti-Semitism and for deliberate use of anti-Semitic language. Which, that's not what she's doing.
But then you have people defending her by propping up arguments I have yet to see her make and linking to Mediums/youtube videos/term papers that lay out critiques of Israel with a precision, clarity and focus that I have yet to see come from her. And it's like...Omar's not doing this either. She's throwing up alley-oops on Twitter and doing a frankly terrible job at it. I mean, take out the "was this anti-Semitism?" debate and Omar's response to Lowey's very measured tweets still wasn't very appropriate.
And the result of this lack of precision is that at the end of the day, I see very little of Omar herself, just the continuation of a debate that's been going.
I think this thread is proof that there there could have been a more effective way for Omar to communicate her criticisms. Wanting better from a rep doesn't have to be a show of non-support either.
You think this is ERA where you, and your zionist apartheid state supporting tone police-tas, get to derive the narrative of any threads relating to israel or, failing that, get threads locked and posters banned? Oh wait...
Sure, I think it's also proof that she could have been more measured and subdued and she still would have gotten shit on by her own party.
It's funny that people think you can use the phrase "tone police" as some kind of cudgel to stop legitimate criticism of her messaging. She's a politician, not a twitter activist. No one cares about tone policing on the national level, she needs a carefully crafted message that will get the heart of her criticisms of Israel and it's relationship with the US without skirting any lines that could be called out.
I don't think it's funny that she is a victim of obvious islamophobia, I don't think it's funny that congressional democrats aren't supporting her, and I don't think it's funny that in the midst of all this the actual criticisms of Israel are being buried under vapid accusations of Anti-semitism.
Man shut up you don't know shit about me all you have to fall back on is assumptions that I support the Israeli treatment of Palestinians but you ain't have any actual thoughts so stay quiet.
I agree 1000% percent with her nativity and poor messaging using Twitter.
However...
I think anyone that dares to impugn someone as an anti-Semite without cause, or because they express a disagreement with the government of Israel, or dare to question America's extremely shady alliance with the government of Israel...those that would do that deserve a thorough raking over the coals, a thorough repudiation in public, loudly and shamelessly. They have no place in our republic, least of all in our government.
Dems continue to want to be just enough progressive but not upset the status quo. Saying anything against Israel is one of the worst things you can do in this country. Omar deserves better
Also holding her to a standard on twitter that we dont even hold the fucking president to is gross
Also holding her to a standard on twitter that we dont even hold the fucking president to is gross
Sigh. Nice, lazy dismissal. Not unsurprising. I have been very critical of Israel and bibi in particular in the past (and still am), but that has nothing to do with this current situation.
Not when people ignorantly or in bad faith equate criticism of the the Israeli government with criticism of jews, especially powerful lobbying groups and politicians.
If Omar isn't willing to moderate her messaging based on now months of "feedback" (read: vapid accusations of anti-semitism) then I don't know what to tell y'all.
If you wanna play the game you gotta play by the rules until you can get the rules changed.
Oh shit I guess I can't talk trash about Trump voters because some of them are Jewish.
What a load of bullshit. The fact that you even wrote this says a lot about where you're coming from. You damn well know why people are bringing up her race and religion, and this ain't it.
I'll slightly revise what I said a couple pages ago:
if you're engaging in Trope Police shit or tone policing right now instead of standing in unequivocal solidarity with Omar, you are not her or the Palestinians' ally, I don't care how progressive, woke, or critical of Israel you think you are
if you're engaging in Trope Police shit or tone policing right now instead of standing in unequivocal solidarity with Omar, you are not her or the Palestinians' ally, I don't care how progressive, woke, or critical of Israel you think you are
So, you do think because she's a black muslim woman she should be immune to national respectability politics? I'm confused.
i personally think it's very funny that people who supposedly have all kinds of issues with israel generally and likud/bibi specifically somehow make very sure that any discussion of israel gets absolutely destroyed by an avalanche of this bullshit
it is the greatest shame that the only mistake Representative Omar made was believing that what's simple for her to understand is only that way because her thoughts and words aren't obscured by huge piles of cash.
Some people will always do that though. So you just don't have to ever worry about effective communication then? Because clearly her criticism is not being effectively communicated, agree with it or not. Look at all this confusion.
This isn't necessary. We can disagree without being assholes.
I mean, we're in here talking about the backlash against Omar. We have other threads where we talk about the abhorrent treatment of the palestinians at israeli hands.
ROFL imagine using this line of argument about any other topic.
If black people haven't learned to stop calling the cops after generations of institutional racism and police brutality then I don't know what to say, they should learn to play by the rules.
You know what, I absolutely agree with this. But, at the same time, it's necessary to point out that this latest blow-up was caused by Omar's poorly thought-out response to someone (Lowey) who wasn't at all calling her an anti-Semite or suggesting that she pledge allegiance to Israel. The entire thing is dumb.
This shit doesn't make any sense. We're talking about a representative to congress, a professional politician, she needs to retool her message. She can be critical of the unfailing US support of Israel without stepping across any made-up lines.
This thread has been trashed.
It was once about the influence of interest groups and the conflict of interests in US politics, but the tone police crowd came in and regurgitated the same "I don't think she's an anti semite buuuuuuut" that was beaten to death in the last thread.
It was once about the influence of interest groups and the conflict of interests in US politics, but the tone police crowd came in and regurgitated the same "I don't think she's an anti semite buuuuuuut" that was beaten to death in the last thread.
Lowey blatantly did accuse her of antisemitism. What on earth are you talking about
I grew up having passover dinners, saying prayers and lighting candles, and watching family members read the Torah, and this is the biggest fucking made-up-ass stupid bullshit defense of a government committing war crimes and paying bribe money to my representatives to keep their mouths shut god damn nonsense and I am infinitely embarrassed for all the people here and elsewhere that are dense enough to fall for it.
no she can't and that's the problem. any criticism of Israel is crossing a line that will trigger these ghouls.
No gaslighting Ilhan Omar and amplifying bad faith attacks makes no sense for people purporting to be allies.
If the game is rigged then you speak out against the rules instead of cowering in the corner for fear that people will tell you off for rocking the boat.
Continues to be relevant
Palestinians and blacks can only get freedom and justice if they are polite and ask nicely and play by the rules of the white liberal moderate. These democrats are worse enemies than the hateful republicans. It's easier to fight against the republicans and their open hate.
Palestinians and blacks can only get freedom and justice if they are polite and ask nicely and play by the rules of the white liberal moderate. These democrats are worse enemies than the hateful republicans. It's easier to fight against the republicans and their open hate.
I mean, I get that on the surface. But then you have dumbass congresscritters like Vargas and Lowey show up on twitter, incensed that anyone dare to question American policy towards Israel. You have Trump tweeting this morning that Omar's comments were anti-Semitic. Even if that's not how this started, that's how it's ending, and THAT'S the fight we need to fight now.
People who act shocked when Geraldo is on the right side of history don't pay attention to him. He's actually a good dude, a truthful talker, and a man of integrity. He's been on the right side of a LOT of topics in the face of adversity on his own network.
Really because I recall Nadler's letter only being sent out after the Benjamins tweet. Like it was that specific phrasing that brought criticism of her communication from colleagues. Presumably the letter doesn't get sent otherwise. There is a reality where she avoided that phrasing and could have continued to more effectively communicate her criticism, but some in this thread refuse to acknowledge that as a possibility.
That wasn't my read. Pointing out that the language Omar used was evocative of anti-Semitic tropes is not calling her an anti-Semite, and I don't think that was Lowey's intent. But I understand the position.
No, she CAN, people do it all the time without igniting controversy. We got Geraldo up there explicitly saying AIPAC is a lobby and he doesn't support Israel's treatment of Palestine but I haven't seen him fired from Fox News yet. The reason is because he's not invoking centuries old racism rooted in anti-semitism with loaded language like Omar did. It's actually not fucking hard to be critical of the Israel lobby without accidentally tripping over this shit.
that is an utterly ludicrous and nonsensical bit of semantic hair-splitting, speaking as an actual Jew here
literally any true thing that anyone could say in critique of israel will be painted as an anti-semitic trope, because these people conflate judaism and israel. there is no proper language or phrasing that could get omar into the good graces of people like this.
We do it ALL THE TIME with accusations of racism.
People can do something racist, or evoke racist language, without being racists.
I get that and I agree with you. There's enough actual disingenuousness in this whole conversation to last a life-time. I just think we can debate and talk about this without assuming (even in jest) that people we disagree with are being paid.
I think most people can see this is definitely happening by right wing folks and is disgusting, but I also think some people need to do some self-reflection and admit they can't really dictate what actual Jewish people feel is anti-semitic or not.
Also because you have never heard of a specific long established anti-semitic dog whistle personally doesn't mean it's not offensive or doesn't have a long history of being used to harm Jewish people. Ignorance is no excuse. There is absolutely a way to criticize AIPAC and Israel without devolving into those types of stereotypes and I would expect any resolution from the House to be very clear about that.
A lot of people are complaining about her and accuse her of anti semitism not because she is a professional politician but because her identity as a black Muslim woman. Especially the Muslim part of her identity. Just look at a random reply at any of her tweets and you can find plenty of people telling her to shut the fuck up, telling her that she's not a real American, that she married her brother and a goat, etc etc.
So yes, many people are tone policing her because of her background. It's a real thing, and it's hurtful to see that your reaction to it is just simply laughing your arse off.
Why doesn't it happen to Betty McCollum to this extent? She receives some expected backlash, but nothing like this.
Well, I'm not Jewish. But as a black gay who has to have these Black/Gay/BlackGay conversations almost every day over language, it's a song and dance you have to do.
Very ashamed to be a Democrat right now, criticizing Israeli lobbying is not akin to anti-semitism; no one accused Noam Chomsky of anti-semitism for calling out Israel as an even bigger foreign influencer of American politics and election than Russia, but then again he's a white man so I guess he's allowed to.
And, worth keeping in mind, that Lowey's statement is based on the bad-faith reporting that twisted her words, but I guess Omar is supposed to shut up and accept that mischaracterization.
Some people are giant asshole racist islamophobes, yes.
However, some people are legitimately worried about the specific language she's using.
well then forgive me for not being offended by anything she said, because it was glaringly obvious what she was talking about. Her existing positions on every issue indicate she is not a person who hates based on religion or ethnicity, I have no reason to believe she is anti-semetic, and neither do you. And yet, you fault her for not playing the game by the rules created by our(?) enemies instead of faulting our enemies for making up these garbage rules in the first place. Can you not see why that's fucked?
If we keep expecting our representatives to play by these rules, nothing will ever change. This is the opportunity to cast away the fog that surrounds Israel and its crimes and stand on the side of justice but you'd rather play the stubborn forum smartypants because it's fun and upsets people.
Seeing that AOC had to retract her support for Palestine to get elected hurt me, but you probably thought it was great. It's time for someone to do better, and it isn't Omar, it's us.
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