How Action Games encourage depth (Bayonetta/Ninja Gaiden/DMC)

[Dahbomb]

This is a pretty well done video IMO and echoes a lot of what I believe is the core appeal of these type of games.

I feel this is also pretty relevant in today's age as there is a lot of talk about the role of "challenge" in video games. Challenge is a core part of the experience in these games as well although the challenge is different from say a Souls game where the main objective is to just survive. Here the challenge is more akin to an old school arcade game with high scores but of course there are a lot more bells and whistles involved.

I also like the choice of these three specific games as they are widely considered to be the "holy trinity" of stylish action games. Here's to hoping that all of these games get sequels in the future.


Side Note: This is my first non OT thread in almost 2 years!

 

[badcrumble]

I think it's also so essential for these games to have a lot of open-ended mechanics that can be combined in ways the developers didn't even intend - instead, you've got a massive toolbox that can be combined in a ton of interesting ways. Devil May Cry especially has a history of taking stuff that was a glitch/exploit in a previous game and transforming it into a full-fledged intentional (and therefore balanced) mechanic in future games.

 

[badcrumble]

Also - apologies for the double post btw - I think Devil May Cry justifiably gets some criticism for its 'sandbag' fodder enemies, but each of these franchises has at least one enemy variety that is just about defenseless and only a threat if you're being a moron, and that's CRUCIAL for giving the player a place to experiment with their moveset.

The stuff in this video about how the cutscenes encourage the player to feel like they can toy with their enemies (and only occasionally feel "serious" about the tone) is fucking brilliant. I'd never thought about it that way, but it absolutely feeds into the greater game design perfectly.

 

[ArclightBorealis]

This video pretty much described what I've been trying to explain to people for years in a more concise manner regarding character action games and what make them stand out from so many other games. That, and I've been playing so much Ninja Gaiden lately that seeing it talked about in this context was especially pleasing for me.

 

[TreeMePls]

I'm honestly shocked no one tried to make a 1v1 character action game back in the day when the franchise was more popular. Seemed like it would be a perfect fit

 

[Hybris]

These action games encourage you to focus your efforts on what you as the player can do instead of what the enemy you are fighting can do. That's what set them apart for me, and that's why they tend to have so much more replayability than your average game.

 

[Dahbomb]

Character action game mechanics would hardly work well as a 1v1 game. It would basically be a fighter like MVC anyway... just look at Dante in the MVC games.

Also recommend viewing this video as well:

 

[badcrumble]

I'm honestly shocked no one tried to make a 1v1 character action game back in the day when the franchise was more popular. Seemed like it would be a perfect fit

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I mean, I'd argue that there are fighters that closely mirror the mechanics of DMC and NG at the very least.

Fighters need to keep the combat locked to a plane of some sort, though. That's pretty essential. It's also essential for character action games that a similar sort of lockon be *present* but not *mandatory*.

 

[Dahbomb]

You could make a fighter that is 1v1 but is in a 3D plane but it's very hard to have it work on one console, has to be on two consoles on two different screens or split screen. Sort of like Dissidia.

But you would have to rework the mechanics dramatically anyway (like transitioning Dante/Vergil into MVC) that at that point you might as well make a regular fighter instead.

 

[ArclightBorealis]

I'm honestly shocked no one tried to make a 1v1 character action game back in the day when the franchise was more popular. Seemed like it would be a perfect fit

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The Doppleganger fights in Ninja Gaiden Black I remember feeling like the closest to that sort of thing, though that was still just you versus an AI. But even then, mechanics and the setup of those battles were skewed in a way that they'd still have a slight advantage over you in a battle.

It's interesting the amount of fighting game parallels that can be made in regards to how combo systems and player control are designed, and yet NG on a whole felt so much closer to emulating that fighting game feel with its enemies and AI. And it still was not 1:1 in the end since you're dealing a lot of group combat regularly.

 

[TreeMePls]

I mean, I'd argue that there are fighters that closely mirror the mechanics of DMC and NG at the very least.

Fighters need to keep the combat locked to a plane of some sort, though. That's pretty essential. It's also essential for character action games that a similar sort of lockon be *present* but not *mandatory*.

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You could make a fighter that is 1v1 but is in a 3D plane but it's very hard to have it work on one console, has to be on two consoles on two different screens or split screen. Sort of like Dissidia.

But you would have to rework the mechanics dramatically anyway (like transitioning Dante/Vergil into MVC) that at that point you might as well make a regular fighter instead.

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All good points.

 

[badcrumble]

All of these games also have certain deep-level mechanical crutches that *fundamentally* advantage the player over the enemies (and achieve a lot of their challenge by minimizing that crutch). Like, enemies are designed to leave certain windows for attack. Your playable character (in an ideal game, anyway) DOES have certain moments where you've "committed" to something you can't just freely cancel out of, but YOU get to choose when to deploy those and can, in fact, straight-up avoid them altogether if you wish.

PvP balance and PvM balance are in many ways always going to be fundamentally at odds like that.

 

[Dahbomb]

PvP and PvE balance should be kept very separate from each other IMHO.

No one wants to feel neutered while trying to beat up on groups of enemies just because of PvP balance that may or may not impact them.

 

[badcrumble]

PvP and PvE balance should be kept very separate from each other IMHO.

No one wants to feel neutered while trying to beat up on groups of enemies just because of PvP balance that may or may not impact them.

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Yeah, very much so - but I think in a character action game specifically, the important differences in balance come all the way down to physics and controls and what can and can't be cancelled. I think it's fundamentally not a balance that can properly struck - the PvP metagame of, let's say, DMC4SE characters versus each other would fully come down to trying to goad your opponent into committing to something they can't cancel out of and then brutally punishing them for it, but there are so many options that DON'T require that commitment that if you're just trying to win instead of be stylish the overall metagame would break completely.

All three of these games make it pretty damn easy to avoid taking damage if that's all you're after, and you only really open yourself to damage when you risk an attack. Can't do good PvP if the whole metagame results in everyone just dodging constantly.

 

[Deleted member 5621]

I love how this all cycles into what can be defined as the goal of design in general (not only game design), or, as Paul Rand put it, marrying form and function, finding a relationship between them to create an object. In this case, you have powerful presentations of what the character does and what the player is expected to do and feel like, and therefore the mechanics and the way the challenges around these mechanics is built all direct the player into the character and his actions.

I just wish people would start to look for examples outside DMC/Bayo/NG and sometimes God Hand/Vanquish. Yes, they are the greatest examples, probably, but other games try to do this too, with varying degrees of success (or failure) or slightly different goals. Gunstar Heroes, Megaman Zero, Alien Soldier, They Bleed Pixels, Bleed, Shank, etc

 

[Big Tent Expat]

You could make a fighter that is 1v1 but is in a 3D plane but it's very hard to have it work on one console, has to be on two consoles on two different screens or split screen. Sort of like Dissidia.

But you would have to rework the mechanics dramatically anyway (like transitioning Dante/Vergil into MVC) that at that point you might as well make a regular fighter instead.

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I could easily see this working and I'm not entirely sure you'd need to go fully into the whole qcf/qcb transition to get it to function properly. Unless you're more referring to risk/reward and in that case I completely agree with you.

 

[Golnei]

Anarchy Reigns tended towards more of the beat-em-up, 3D brawler sort of design, but it could be considered a template for a multiplayer version of a Platinum action game - of course, there the 1v1 aspect was a side mode, not the main attraction. It's true that the established strengths of the genre couldn't come through in a PvP format, but that doesn't mean that there isn't anything worthwhile to be found in exploring how aspects of it could transition to a multiplayer environment in a way which differs from regular 3D fighters.

 

[DanteLinkX]

Character action games I believe are one of the most difficult genres to develop a game for, usually demand 60fps, high paced action, motion capture, good level design, rpg elements, good AI, voice acting, responsive controls (little to no input lag), lots of bosses, weapons, moves, and even good soundtrack, without mentioning cgi cutscenes or physics shenaniggans that can easly break the boundaries of the game. (And these points are usually the reasons why this genre is my fav)

While a game of another genre, lets say last guardian for example, all you need is good level design and a nice story and call it a day.

Btw first post. Glad I got accepted :)!

 

[Deleted member 4609]

While a game of another genre, lets say last guardian for example, all you need is good level design and a nice story and call it a day.

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Well, that's underselling what it takes to create game like TLG. It may be a different skillset, but it's still one that must be refined for the best results.

But yeah, action games like these have always had testing and development challenges that seem invisible when the devs get them right, but are immediately noticeable when they're not there. There's a reason why NGB (and I'd add TW101) is pretty much the only one that's widely considered to have a fully-fledged "game" behind the combat mechanics. Corners must always be cut when dealing with this kind of complex game framework, whether it be rehashing the same levels in the second half, Bayonetta's frozen cutscenes or a good dose of backtracking.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

Thats why I always get frustrated when people choose those automatic modes in DMC or that one handed mode for Bayonetta. It just fundamentally changes the game for the worse.

 

[DanteLinkX]

Well, that's underselling what it takes to create game like TLG. It may be a different skillset, but it's still one that must be refined for the best results.

But yeah, action games like these have always had testing and development challenges that seem invisible when the devs get them right, but are immediately noticeable when they're not there. There's a reason why NGB (and I'd add TW101) is pretty much the only one that's widely considered to have a fully-fledged "game" behind the combat mechanics. Corners must always be cut when dealing with this kind of complex game framework, whether it be rehashing the same levels in the second half, Bayonetta's frozen cutscenes or a good dose of backtracking.

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Definitely, I dont mean to look down on that kind of game, not at all (I did enjoy last guardian a lot) just pointing out they dont have to work on all the stuff a full character action game has to, like mocap for all the moves, all the weapons, and the whole enemy AI, etc.

Also action games usually have to develop stuff for second playthroughts, like costumes, new playable characters (sometimes with a whole new moveset), etc, things we sometimes take for granted on that genre, since its really fun to go back to early stages with the full endgame set and try to get better scores. In resume, they have to be developed with that replayability in mind too, when other games are sometimes developed as a single playthrough experience.

 

[Deleted member 4609]

Definitely, I dont mean to look down on that kind of game, not at all (I did enjoy last guardian a lot) just pointing out they dont have to work on all the stuff a full character action game has to, like mocap for all the moves, all the weapons, and the whole enemy AI, etc.

Also action games usually have to develop stuff for second playthroughts, like costumes, new playable characters (sometimes with a whole new moveset), etc, things we sometimes take for granted on that genre, since its really fun to go back to early stages with the full endgame set and try to get better scores. In resume, they have to be developed with that replayability in mind too, when other games are sometimes developed as a single playthrough experience.

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Oh, yeah, for sure. It must be an insane amount of work. As for unlockable content, I actually wonder what a new full budget modern game would do about that. DMC4 SE is the closest thing to that and it already had some paid costumes and such, so I can only imagine a theoretical DMC5 would cut down on that kind of unlockable content as well. Hopefully we get to find out!

 

[azeke]

It's really disappointing to see majority of games done today have such a sub-par combat, animation and camera work.

I consider not knowing how and why Ninja Gaiden/Bayonetta/DMC3 work and not learning from them as not just an incompetency but illiteracy even.

It's even more disappointing to see even the only studio who keeps up the standard -- Platinum succumbing to the mainstream with games like Metal Gear Rising that introduce damage upgrading which makes campaign balance completely void and meaningless (among many other blatant mistakes that game made).

I am not asking for every game to be "holy trinity"-tier Japanese style action game, not even asking everything to be action focused at all -- just asking for a bit of competency and effort to make your game mechanics work and maybe synergize once in a while.

 

[GamingEnthusiast]

I'm not the most prolific when it comes to action games that I've played before. Nevertheless, I've always been interested in action games, specifically the Holy Trinity that was mentioned in this thread so far. I've played DMC Devil May Cry and Vanquish and consider them to be among my favourite video games. I would say that I've never experienced such depth in terms of combining different types of moves until I played Ninja Theory's adaptation of the DMC franchise. It was like a whole new world was introduced to me and ever since then, I've been trying to collect the cream of the crop of existing action games. So far, I have two thirds of the Holy Trinity except Ninja Gaiden.

I wish I can contribute more to the discussion but I'm loving this thread so far. My appreciation for action games has become greater thanks to you.

 

[Dr. Caroll]

Thats why I always get frustrated when people choose those automatic modes in DMC or that one handed mode for Bayonetta. It just fundamentally changes the game for the worse.

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Different strokes for different folks. Some people aren't interested in mastering a game's mechanics. They just want to play the game from opening to credits at a steady pace. Time spent mastering mechanics is time wasted. They want to mash buttons and have cool stuff happen in response, interspersed with sweet cutscenes.

Most Platinum games are designed to cater to this demographic. Ninja Gaiden will bend over backwards to ensure the game is fun even if you intentionally play it as poorly as possible. Same with God Hand and its dynamic difficulty. It's a huge factor in their success.

edit: The same can be said for Resident Evil 6. It has extremely deep combat mechanics, but it's quite possible to complete the game by running in circles and button mashing. If the game didn't allow for that, it likely wouldn't have sold so many copies. It would be a niche, inaccessible character action game.

 

[Dahbomb]

DMC games are easy to mash through from start to finish on easy modes while looking cool.

The issue is that you are robbing yourself of a particular type of experience. It's like skipping over slower/difficult parts in a movie because you just want to get to the end. These games are not really designed that way even though they try to accommodate as many as possible (because they have to sell copies to stay afloat).

For a lot of people mastering mechanics is not a waste of time, it's part of the fun or experience. These games cater to that audience, however niche it may be.

 

[Calabi]

Character action game mechanics would hardly work well as a 1v1 game. It would basically be a fighter like MVC anyway... just look at Dante in the MVC games.

Also recommend viewing this video as well:

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I do not like that video. Challenge is not the core of video games. Play is. Challenge will not get more people into video games. Play as in the way children play will get more people into video games.

 

[Deleted member 419]

I do not like that video. Challenge is not the core of video games. Play is. Challenge will not get more people into video games. Play as in the way children play will get more people into video games.

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The video kind of rubbed me the wrong way too, personally I enjoy challenge in games but if challenge was the core of gaming, Mario and Zelda wouldn't be as popular nor as critically-adored as they are. To use just a couple notable examples.

 

[Renna Hazel]

Watching that video just made me sad that we haven't had a good Ninja Gaiden in nearly a decade. Please bring a real Ninja Gaiden to Switch!

 

[ArclightBorealis]

Watching that video just made me sad that we haven't had a good Ninja Gaiden in nearly a decade. Please bring a real Ninja Gaiden to Switch!

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The suffering's been real. But then again it's been suffering for OG DMC fans as well, and hopefully things will be looking to improve for fans of either.

 

[Renna Hazel]

The suffering's been real. But then again it's been suffering for OG DMC fans as well, and hopefully things will be looking to improve for fans of either.

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Indeed. Being a fan of both, I'll take DMC5 as well. And Bayo 3. But Ninja Gaiden is THE action game. I need another one asap!