How can you learn about slavery and the holocaust and still believe in a god?

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Blue Skies

Blue Skies

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Mar 27, 2019
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Ah the weekly religious bashing thread. I thought we were due for one. I believe in a higher being because to me it would be silly to not think that there was something superior to humans.
technically pointy rocks are superior to humans, since they can so easily pierce our skin.

snakesvenom is also superior to humans, since it can kill us

why do you believe there has to be something “higher”
Or actually, why do believe there’s a hierarchy?
We’re just a combination of matter able to “think” which is just a fucking coincidence and any little thing changes a couple hundred million years ago, and we don’t even exist.
 

Lewpy

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Oct 28, 2017
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Particularly as God famously stepped in when charging Moses with the task of releasing slaves. Wtf man, talk about double standards.
 

Mikey Jr.

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Here is how I see it personally.

God is giving us free will. He's not gonna come through the heavens and stop Hitler.
Our life on here is to judge where we will go in the afterlife.
And while many people suffer here, our time on this earth, in the grand scheme, is literally nothing compared to eternity. But it is also our most important.

I truly believe there is something after we die. I can't sit here and tell you what it is. But I know it's not nothing.
 
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Blue Skies

Blue Skies

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This isn’t a religion bashing thread btw, it’s SUPPOSED to be a thread about how differently we all react when given world shattering information
 
Oct 27, 2017
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It is still intervention though. Him intervening in say slavery or the holocaust would still mean taking away freewill from evil people.
Yes it'd be an intervention, that's what I said. And my point was that it wouldn't have to take free will away from anyone, because an omnipotent being would be capable of that. An omnipotent being could literally do it in an infinite number of ways even if you can not grasp it with a human mind.

Think it like this: life is a test.
Honestly that just seems to raise some heavy moral implications. We're all those people killed in the Holocaust just part of some wicked test? And a test for whom? An omniscient God would already know everything.
 

Majora85

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Nov 21, 2017
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Think it like this: life is a test.
So one person's test could be to live a long, rich, relatively trouble-free and privileged life while another person gets to grow up being tortured in a concentration camp and dying as a toddler.

Sounds like a fucking terrible test. What did God gain from the 'tests' of all the children who grew up and died in concentration camps? Did they meet his requirements during their short miserable time on earth? How do you 'judge' a life like that , completely devoid of free will?
 

Z-Beat

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Oct 25, 2017
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This isn’t a religion bashing thread btw, it’s SUPPOSED to be a thread about how differently we all react when given world shattering information
You can't really make that type of thread here and expect it to not turn into that though. I can't even expect y'all to keep cumming on your own faces to yourselves, apparently
 

Rendering...

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Oct 30, 2017
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You can't really make that type of thread here and expect it to not turn into that though. I can't even expect y'all to keep cumming on your own faces to yourselves, apparently
The difference between people cumming on their own faces and religion is that one of those topics is always amusing to read and talk about.
 

Richter1887

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Oct 27, 2017
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Unless I’m mistaken, you’re making the claim that any victim of a devastating accident or horrific random suffering is getting the punishment they deserve. This is a disgusting but useful reminder that religion can easily lead to moral derangement and a corrupted worldview.
That's not at all what I said?

If a person's suffeeing led to them commiting sins then obviously they wouldn't get punished as say Hitler or any horrible person. If your sins come due tot he nature of your environment then obviously this will factor in with how you will be judged.

It is not black and white.
Yes it'd be an intervention, that's what I said. And my point was that it wouldn't have to take free will away from anyone, because an omnipotent being would be capable of that. An omnipotent being could literally do it in an infinite number of ways even if you can not grasp it with a human mind.
One of the reasons why humans are not up there in heaven is for this reason. God gave people the freedom to do what they want and choose the path they want to go. Intervention in human affairs that happens today would take away from that.

If God intervenes then horrible people wouldn't get the choice to be horrible and instead there will only be a society that is controlled.
 

Deffers

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This isn’t a religion bashing thread btw, it’s SUPPOSED to be a thread about how differently we all react when given world shattering information
Part of the problem is that information is only world-shattering for some people. Bart Ehrman, noted Biblical scholar, had his worldview altered when he noticed there were thousands of different manuscripts. I think only after did the problem of evil become a bigger theological argument for him. For some people, the problem of evil didn't matter until the abuses of the Church took something very precious away from them-- and that's not me thinking less of them. For some people, it was some entirely different aspect of world religion and the problem of evil wasn't a major concern.

I don't really disrespect anybody for disbelieving. You never know if you'll reach a threshold or not.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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just curious, as children, what were your reactions when you found out that: oh wait, people are FUCKED UP?

posting again since y’all just read the title
When I was a kid and learned the true depth and horror of slavery I thought if god was real then he hated my people, since he allowed slavery to happen. I took no comfort in "but they had eternal happiness in heaven" or any of that, just sounded like a bunch of shit to avoid admitting how terrible the slave owners and really all the white people of the time where, after all they were going to church too. Clearly god didn't give a damn about those who were suffering.

I also distinctly remember telling one of my teachers that I wished every single slave owner and supporter were slaughtered like animals and being told that such a rush isn't nice and is inhumane...while on the subject of slavery saying it was just a product of it's time and ppl didn't know better
 

SecondNature

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Here is how I see it personally.

God is giving us free will. He's not gonna come through the heavens and stop Hitler.
Our life on here is to judge where we will go in the afterlife.
And while many people suffer here, our time on this earth, in the grand scheme, is literally nothing compared to eternity. But it is also our most important.

I truly believe there is something after we die. I can't sit here and tell you what it is. But I know it's not nothing.
God has constantly interfered with humanity. why not stop someone like hitler or change his heart or do any number of things that do not necessarily interfere with free will?

free will also doesnt explain natural causes of suffering like natural disasters or freak aneurysms or birth defects, unless u believe in original sin

why does an eternity with god excuse suffering here? How does suffering play a role when we are of different religions or suffering causes some to sin? Or do u believe we all go to heaven or are judged differently regardless of religion?

in which case, how is it even fair that we are all dealt very different cards in life and we are all judged ultimately by how we choose to play it?



if soul A goes to heaven for living life A but wouldnt go to heaven if he lived life B, how is that fair?

the measuring stick of who goes to heaven makes little sense if god is judging our performance by how we deal with adversity

do people who suffer have a better chance of going to heaven?Suppose we’re talking about people Who suffer all their lives. What would cause them to go to hell regardless of their suffering?

If eternity is the bigger picture and this world just a momentary hurdle, should we be hoping we live more suffering lives since god may judge us more Leniently? Does someone who suffers from poverty get judged less harshly for committing sin if his sin comes from desperation?
 

Lonely1

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Oct 26, 2017
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So one person's test could be to live a long, rich, relatively trouble-free and privileged life while another person gets to grow up being tortured in a concentration camp and dying as a toddler.

Sounds like a fucking terrible test. What did God gain from the 'tests' of all the children who grew up and died in concentration camps? Did they meet his requirements during their short miserable time on earth? How do you 'judge' a life like that , completely devoid of free will?
I do not not have the bible memorised, so sorry if I'm just paraphrasin. In a particular parable a father gave to each of their sons different a amount of money. After a year, he expected more return from the son who got the biggest quantity and very little from the one whi got the least. In other words, he expects different from different life situations.
 

Mona

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Oct 30, 2017
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Humans killed them, not god, though.
if god is omniscient and omnipotent (as many people claim of him) then it means he chose to create a universe knowing full well that it would lead to humans doing that

humans had no choice but to act in a way that was already foreseen and chosen for them
 

SecondNature

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Oct 25, 2017
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Interventions ended with Jesus.
So you don’t believe in miracles? Or prayers? Does god no longer act on the behalf of humans because he’s laid out a blueprint to follow in jesus?

why did interventions happen at the frequency it did in the first place? what about the free will of those before jesus?
 

diakyu

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Dec 15, 2018
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I do not not have the bible memorised, so sorry if I'm just paraphrasin. In a particular parable a father gave to each of their sons different a amount of money. After a year, he expected more return from the son who got the biggest quantity and very little from the one whi got the least. In other words, he expects different from different life situations.
Usually very hands off from these threads, but the father punished the one who received the less amount of money because he did nothing to multiply it. It's a story about rewarding faith not different expectations.
 
Nov 1, 2017
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I mean, he literally lets a baby die every single minute of every day of malaria alone, the fuck is he gonna care about adults?
 

faceless

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Oct 25, 2017
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Why would the devil torture people in hell?

I never quite got that logic...

Wouldn't he be happy to have more company?
 

Thequietone

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Oct 26, 2017
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Because it's all "part of the plan." Know what I noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan" even if the plan is horrifying.
 

Lonely1

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if god is omniscient and omnipotent (as many people claim of him) then it means he chose to create a universe knowing full well that it would lead to humans doing that
I like think on got as a programer of a simulation. Even though I tecnically know all there is in my code, and have poses the closest of what can be called omniscience and omnipotence over it, I still have to run it to see the outcome.


humans had no choice but to act in a way that was already foreseen and chosen for them
I'm not a Calvinist, so I disagree with this. But Calvinist state that this is true
 

blitzblake

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Jan 4, 2018
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I do not not have the bible memorised, so sorry if I'm just paraphrasin. In a particular parable a father gave to each of their sons different a amount of money. After a year, he expected more return from the son who got the biggest quantity and very little from the one whi got the least. In other words, he expects different from different life situations.
So rich people have to do more? I’m down.
 

Lonely1

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Oct 26, 2017
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Usually very hands off from these threads, but the father punished the one who received the less amount of money because he did nothing to multiply it. It's a story about rewarding faith not different expectations.
But he expected different from different sons. The one who got little got punished because he did nothing, not because he did less than the other sons. The son son who got middle of the road got the same reward even though he did less than the richest one.
 

TheCthultist

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Oct 27, 2017
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The way ive always looked at it is just that that’s all a part of free will. Some people just use it to be as evil as they can possibly be... I figure god would likely be extremely hands off with everything humanity-related by now. I know I would be...
So rich people have to do more? I’m down.
and yeah, it’s stated a few times in the New Testament at least. Rich people have to do way more to be worthy of heaven or salvation or what have you than people who have actually had to struggle in life.
 

SecondNature

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Oct 25, 2017
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I like think on got as a programer of a simulation. Even though I tecnically know all there is in my code, and have poses the closest of what can be called omniscience and omnipotence over it, I still have to run it to see the outcome.



I'm not a Calvinist, so I disagree with this. But Calvinist state that this is true
We arent code though. We are living, breathing things with consciousness. We feel and think

If u realized this about your code why would u see it to the end and not end suffering?

truly think for a second on what suffering is. We are talking trillions of souls who live the most agonizing lives. Experiences that stretch the mind and body in ways that no one ever wants to experience. Unfathomable pains that most of us wont experience, but those that do are forever tortured by. Rape, abuse, torture.

u as a programmer would be completely okay continuing this simulation? And throughout this experiment, youre still going to decide who to banish or punish for eternity and who to make eternally blissful (if u believe that)

what is the motivation of u as a creator to do this? lets not use code but real life people instead

if we were running a lab experiment with human beings, would we not at some point stop a simulation if people were suffering? Why is the programmer/god’s response more akin to indifference?
 

LOLDSFAN

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Oct 25, 2017
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So the lord did that then, why didn’t he intervene for the slaves, or to stop hitler?
I mean, more people died during the holocaust that probably even existed during the supposed time of the flood
I honestly don't know why he didn't intervene. I'm sure he has his justifications for what he lets happen and not happen. I can rest easy knowing though that those who do evil will get judged accordingly and justice will get served. Whether that be in this world like the flood, or not in this world like hell.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

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Oct 25, 2017
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We are the conscious parts of the universe looking back at itself and deciding whether or not suffering is ok. A lot of the time we apparently do not give a shit about how others feel.
 

Lonely1

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Oct 26, 2017
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We arent code though. We are living, breathing things with consciousness. We feel and think
If you want to go on the side of science, then there's no difference.

If u realized this about your code why would u see it to the end and not end suffering?
What's the end goal of my code though? If I were tasked of developing love (or adoration) for my self, selection through possibility is the way I would do it.

truly think for a second on what suffering is. We are talking trillions of souls who live the most agonizing lives. Experiences that stretch the mind and body in ways that no one ever wants to experience. Unfathomable pains that most of us wont experience, but those that do are forever tortured by. Rape, abuse, torture.

u as a programmer would be completely okay continuing this simulation? And throughout this experiment, youre still going to decide who to banish or punish for eternity and who to make eternally blissful (if u believe that)

what is the motivation of u as a creator to do this? lets not use code but real life people instead
The answer is that the alternative (not running the simulation at all) would be worse because then I would be denying them the chance of living. I can't really answer the next logical question since I have not experience a situation where I would have rather not lived at all, btw.

if we were running a lab experiment with human beings, would we not at some point stop a simulation if people were suffering? Why is the programmer/god’s response more akin to indifference?
The canonical answer is that the people who suffered the most will get the bigger rewards in the after life.
 

Mona

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Oct 30, 2017
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I honestly don't know why he didn't intervene. I'm sure he has his justifications for what he lets happen and not happen. I can rest easy knowing though that those who do evil will get judged accordingly and justice will get served. Whether that be in this world like the flood, or not in this world like hell.
allowing for millions of years of incidental suffering and creating a place of eternal suffering is infinitely more evil than every bad thing every human has ever done combined

i would be beyond sickened with myself if it ever even occurred to me to see such an entity in any semblance of positive light
 

LOLDSFAN

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Oct 25, 2017
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allowing for millions of years of incidental suffering and creating a place of eternal suffering is infinitely more evil than every bad thing every human has ever done combined

i would be beyond sickened with myself if it ever even occurred to me to see such an entity in any semblance of positive light
There's a really simple way of avoiding eternal suffering though. If people don't want to accept that free gift, then that's on them.
 

DosaDaRaja

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Oct 26, 2017
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Turns out, God is a Lovecraftian entity, indifferent to the plight of puny humans who matter not in the grand scheme of things, only occasionally dabbling in mortal affairs for the lolz.


That, or the Chaos Gods are real.


Makes the most sense to me personally.
 

SecondNature

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Oct 25, 2017
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If you want to go on the side of science, then there's no difference.



What's the end goal of my code though? If I were tasked of developing love (or adoration) for my self, selection through possibility is the way I would do it.

QUOTE="SecondNature, post: 26795313, member: 2743"]
truly think for a second on what suffering is. We are talking trillions of souls who live the most agonizing lives. Experiences that stretch the mind and body in ways that no one ever wants to experience. Unfathomable pains that most of us wont experience, but those that do are forever tortured by. Rape, abuse, torture.

u as a programmer would be completely okay continuing this simulation? And throughout this experiment, youre still going to decide who to banish or punish for eternity and who to make eternally blissful (if u believe that)

what is the motivation of u as a creator to do this? lets not use code but real life people instead
The answer is that the alternative (not running the simulation at all) would be worse because then I would be denying them the chance of living. I can't really answer the next logical question since I have not experience a situation where I would have rather not lived at all, btw.

The canonical answer is that the people who suffered the most will get the bigger rewards in the after life.
[/QUOTE]

Science is not a worldview akin to religion here and there absolutely is a difference between code and conscious human beings. Religion does not hold a monopoly on defining this

can people who suffer still go to hell? Is being a slave or a victim of severe abuse a ticket to heaven? since this is a finite life and infinite heaven is far more preferable, it almost sounds like we should be wanting to suffer

what is this argument of denying us choice by choosing not to run a simulation? It seems the rules are set up in such poor ways that none of us get the option to choose how we are dealt our hand, but we must nonethleess play our hands and be rewarded or punished in the most ludicrous way

i don’t recall opting in or out for eternity, but it seems that’s the ultimate fate. Or do u subscribe to an afterlife where completely being removed from existence is an option?

or is it just eternal heavenly bliss or torment in hell?’
 

Gwarm

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Nov 13, 2017
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Christianity is built upon the idea that evil exists and can consume our hearts without the grace of god. The atrocities we commit just feed into that idea.
 

Lonely1

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Science is not a worldview akin to religion here and there absolutely is a difference between code and conscious human beings. Religion does not hold a monopoly on defining this
Let's put it like this. We have yet to find a substantial difference between code and life. And many scientist believe that there is none.

can people who suffer still go to hell? Is being a slave or a victim of severe abuse a ticket to heaven? since this is a finite life and infinite heaven is far more preferable, it almost sounds like we should be wanting to suffer
I literally do not know this. Only that the threshold for being good is much lower.

what is this argument of denying us choice by choosing not to run a simulation? It seems the rules are set up in such poor ways that none of us get the option to choose how we are dealt our hand, but we must nonethleess play our hands and be rewarded or punished in the most ludicrous way
How can you chose if you were denied the opportunity to exist in the first place.

i don’t recall opting in or out for eternity, but it seems that’s the ultimate fate. Or do u subscribe to an afterlife where completely being removed from existence is an option?

or is it just eternal heavenly bliss or torment in hell?’
I do not know this. Right now I wouldn't chose stop existing, though.
 
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SecondNature

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Oct 25, 2017
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There's a really simple way of avoiding eternal suffering though. If people don't want to accept that free gift, then that's on them.
This is always the most cruel answer that I can imagine but its always the heart of all the discussion we have about suffering and empathy. Yet it also perfectly captures the Christian belief. Its the staple of what salvation is.

it is an answer that is completely lacking empathy and indifferent to truly understanding what you are implying

Its a “fuck u, got mine” answer that comes from the privilege of assuming you are good with god and that everyone else must submit. It completely invalidates all other experiences and sufferings because it always comes down to this core belief

Its not a free gift
 

Wracu

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Oct 25, 2017
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PSA for this thread: neither evil nor free will are things that exist. This is a related concept.

I'm seeing these words in like every other post in this thread, so we're already off to a bad start. Of course, I sympathize entirely with the OP regardless. There's less than zero actual reasons to believe god exists, though if he does he's an incredibly unethical asshole.
 

Laser Man

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Oct 26, 2017
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Belief in a religious sense is not build upon reasoning and evidence. If you do it then you do it and that's that, of course some people like to say they have a reason and it can be anything really. So it doesn't matter!
 

pokeystaples

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Oct 27, 2017
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My reaction to learning about the atrocities inflicted by men was never to question God, but to begin to approach white people with additional scrutiny. If history has a villain it’s not God, it’s white people. God just ignores us.
 
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