How can you learn about slavery and the holocaust and still believe in a god?

[Blue Skies]

Seventh grade was hardcore.
it wasn't the first time we learned about slavery or the holocaust, but it's when I had a FANTASTIC civics teacher and he didn't hold back in his lectures.
saw the holocaust pictures, the Atlantic slave trade ship diagrams, andjust enough stuff to really blow away this idea that my mom has raised me to believe, that god loves us all and that this is a just world under his rule.

like, wtf humanity. We also looked at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and little 13 year old me wrote an essay about how the US was evil for having dropped those bombs and how the Iraq war was unjustified.

anyways..
How can god be real when we do things like this to each other?
When we enslave, exterminate, and evaporate, each other?

whats the point?
What's the game?

if you say: all part of gods plan, then what shitty plan is that?

just curious, as children, what were your reactions when you found out that: oh wait, people are FUCKED UP

 

[SlickShoesRUCRazy]

Maybe a god is just an asshole that enjoys watching suffering?

edit: would be a better explanation as to what humans suck since we are suppose to be made in his image or something?

 

[adj_noun]

Problem of evil - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

People have been trying to figure that one out for a long time.

 

[Border]

You can definitely still believe in a god, just not the Christian god. Probably not the Jewish or Islamic one either.

 

[Fallout-NL]

You don't, it's what post modernism is about.

 

[Officer Big Mac]

You won't find any answers here. Or anywhere.

 

[hom3land]

If this is the weekly god is dumb thread, I always wondered why he would send his son when he did. I mean if he really wanted to spread the word to everyone, why not wait 2000 years. If he had the internet be could have reached the whole world, not just a small corner of the Roman empire.

 

[Fairxchange]

If pure evil can exist than so can pure love

 

[Hey Please]

Yea, I am in the same boat.

If there is a god, I see it as an entity running dispassionate experiments on the consequence of marrying sentience and intelligence with evolutionary predispositions.

IIRC, there is at least one branch of Christianity that believes that the rich and powerful have god's favour. Makes sense for a capitalistic society.

 

[KillLaCam]

It was all just a test from magic man, or he guided the good guys to win or the victims died and went to heaven so it was good in the end

 

[Deleted member 52442]

You can definitely still believe in a god, just not the Christian god. Probably not the Jewish or Islamic one either.

Click to shrink...

im in this boat i think

i believe in a creator

 

[Netherscourge]

From the Bible itself, God comes off as a power-mongering mad scientist who demands worship and punishes people who disobey him with torture, death and then burning in eternal hellfire.

"Love" of God is extorted by the fear of his wrath.

So, yea. My kid isn't getting any teaching of God or religion from me.

 

[D i Z]

Fuck. Can we just not with this shit everyday? Every single damned day.

 

[Blue Skies]

If this is the weekly god is dumb thread, I always wondered why he would send his son when he did. I mean if he really wanted to spread the word to everyone, why not wait 2000 years. If he had the internet be could have reached the whole world, not just a small corner of the Roman empire.

Click to shrink...

I mean, more than half of this planet believes in magic/spiritualism, I think it deserves talking about.

like, wtf
Whyyy

 

[Blue Skies]

Fuck. Can we just not with this shit everyday? Every single damned day.

Click to shrink...

It's madness that over half the world just believes in made up shit.

it's like if we all just decided to believe that Star Wars actually did happen a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, and that the force was real.

 

[Baccus]

It's either 2 ways:

• God's plan requires temporal bad things happening so the good (perfect, because he's God) things happen later. "Slavery sucks, but without slavery having happened people wouldn't have recognized their own limits because we're stupid, cruel animals, so God let that happen so we, as a species learn the lesson". The unjustly (in human terms) who suffer the consequences of evil still find comfort in God, quicker than their fellows, so in that sense they are "luckier" because they'll be closer to God sooner than them.
• God is completely removed from human affairs, giving us absolute "free will" as a test of our worthiness. This version of God is scary, because prayers wouldn't work with it, so we're on our own all the time, but still bound to listen to him.

A "rational" approach to God does not end in the thought of comfort with his love. It's a feeling closer to fatalism than anything else really.

 

[N.Domixis]

Some Fucker's believe Trump was put in office by God.

 

[D i Z]

It's madness that over half the world just believes in made up shit.

it's like if we all just decided to believe that Star Wars actually did happen a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, and that the force was real.

Click to shrink...

No. it's madness that you all can't let people find cultural peace.

 

[gutter_trash]

the most religious parts of the planet are some of the poorest and most oppressed

 

[D i Z]

the most religious parts of the planet are some of the poorest and most oppressed

Click to shrink...

Guess who are oppressing?

 

[lucablight]

No. it's madness that you all can't let people find cultural peace.

Click to shrink...

Is the irony lost on you? No one is forcing you to participate.

 

[nsilvias]

No. it's madness that you all can't let people find cultural peace.

Click to shrink...

excuse me for being frustrated that i cant say i dont believe in god without being told that the devil is inside me by my own family. no it can't be that ive chosen that religion is not for me! it must be the devil! religous people tend to be assholes to the non religous but no they are the ones who are oppressed. edit: im talking about life in first world countries btw

 

[Blue Skies]

No. it's madness that you all can't let people find cultural peace.

Click to shrink...

Peace through willful ignorance just feels wrong.

as long as their religious beliefs don't impact public policy then who cares, but, you just can't seem to get religion out of politics, and maybes it's becuase there are so many religious folk

 

[neon_dream]

The entire point is that as humans we are flawed beings responsible for our own actions. We have free will, the power to make our own choices and to shape the world, to do good (correct choice) or evil (wrong choice). The point is that we bring these sufferings on ourselves and others when we choose poorly. Life is not just joy and pleasure. It's learning and growing and enduring, despite hardship and through hardship to choose to do good, which is all the sweeter because of it. We're "made in God's image" with agency in the world, we suffer through our sins and the sins of others in order to learn, to find acceptance, to seek repentance, and eventually to overcome and revel in a higher order of existence.

That's a tale told again and again throughout human literature, be it various religious / fictional stories.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

I'm an atheist and I don't think this is a good argument, god could just be a fucking asshole and that's it.

The reason you shouldn't believe in god is the lack of evidence and how religion is obviously man made BS.

 

[IzzyRX]

A god? Yeah, but a chaotic neutral one.
But I don't think any religion nailed it.
I'm more interessed on what happens when we die.

 

[Ocean Bones]

You just hope those people get something after a life of pain, you hope to see your lost family again. You want to live forever.

That's what drives belief.

 

[lucablight]

The entire point is that as humans we are flawed beings responsible for our own actions. We have free will, the power to make our own choices and to shape the world, to do good (correct choice) or evil (wrong choice). The point is that we bring these sufferings on ourselves and others when we choose poorly. Life is not just joy and pleasure. It's learning and growing and enduring, despite hardship and through hardship to choose to do good, which is all the sweeter because of it. We're "made in God's image" with agency in the world, we suffer through our sins and the sins of others in order to learn, to find acceptance, to seek repentance, and eventually to overcome and revel in a higher order of existence.

That's a tale told again and again throughout human literature, be it various religious / fictional stories.

Click to shrink...

Omniscience and free will are incompatible.

 

[Deleted member 4552]

God made us he just forgot about us.

Spoiler

God's not real all religion is a lie

 

[Soriku]

Some people will believe in anything, especially if it makes them feel good, nothing new here. Anyway the problem of evil is an ages old argument. In the end, whether there is a god or not, religions are man made.

 

[D i Z]

Is the irony lost on you? No one is forcing you to participate.

Click to shrink...

And you neither.

excuse me for being frustrated that i cant say i dont believe in god without being told that the devil is inside me by my own family. no it can't be that ive chosen that religion is not for me! it must be the devil! religous people tend to be assholes to the non religous but no they are the ones who are oppressed. edit: im talking about life in first world countries btw

Click to shrink...

I can get down with that why crap on others that are enveloped?

Peace through willful ignorance just feels wrong.

as long as their religious beliefs don't impact public policy then who cares, but, you just can't seem to get religion out of politics, and maybes it's becuase there are so many religious folk

Click to shrink...

Willful ignorance. Like you know a damn thing. lol.


So many people get up everyday and this is what they have and they work hard to be better.

 

[Blue Skies]

I'm an atheist and I don't think this is a good argument, god could just be a fucking asshole and that's it.

The reason you shouldn't believe in god is the lack of evidence and how religion is obviously man made BS.

Click to shrink...

Well I'm not really laying out a scientific argument for/against, but more of an emotional one, like as a kid when I learned that stuff, I was struck at my core. How, could we do this to each other!!! I guess since I was a pretty sheltered kid, learning about true evil just shook any belief I had out

I get that the alternate for some people is, "there's true evil so their must be true good"
But like, if there's a true good, why would they allow true evil?
That means they're not true good

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

Well I'm not really laying out a scientific argument for/against, but more of an emotional one, like as a kid when I learned that stuff, I was struck at my core. How, could we do this to each other!!! I guess since I was a pretty sheltered kid, learning about true evil just shook any belief I had out

I get that the alternate for some people is, "there's true evil so their must be true good"
But like, if there's a true good, why would they allow true evil?
That means they're not true good

Click to shrink...

A god could just see us like we see ants, as non important beings dealing with non-important problems, our suffering is insignificant.

We are just monkeys that think that are important after all.

Also I can see people say it's just some free will BS.

 

[D i Z]

Well I'm not really laying out a scientific argument for/against, but more of an emotional one, like as a kid when I learned that stuff, I was struck at my core. How, could we do this to each other!!! I guess since I was a pretty sheltered kid, learning about true evil just shook any belief I had out

I get that the alternate for some people is, "there's true evil so their must be true good"
But like, if there's a true good, why would they allow true evil?
That means they're not true good

Click to shrink...

That's the dumbest thing I've read today, and I've read some dumb things. Make a proper argument.

 

[mbpm]

Say it was the other Guy who did it.

Usually the other Guy will map onto a racial stereotype.

 

[Deleted member 60582]

Sometimes in life, people will believe things that you find silly or otherwise don't understand, and that's fine.

 

[Katamari]

If this is the weekly god is dumb thread, I always wondered why he would send his son when he did. I mean if he really wanted to spread the word to everyone, why not wait 2000 years. If he had the internet be could have reached the whole world, not just a small corner of the Roman empire.

Click to shrink...

If there was a God and came down and proved they were God people still wouldn't believe. In the Bible the apostles followed Jesus for years and still didn't believe until Jesus rose from the dead.

Cognitive dissonance is a real thing. Just talk to any Trump supporter.

 

[neon_dream]

Also, specifically regarding the holocaust, I encourage you to read "Man's Search for Meaning", by Viktor Frankl. It's a beautiful work from a Jewish Psychiatrist who survived the concentration camps. It delves into lay, scientific, religious, and literary thoughts on his experiences.

https://www.amazon.com/Mans-Search-Meaning-Viktor-Frankl/dp/0807014273

 

[Blue Skies]

Willful ignorance. Like you know a damn thing. lol.


So many people get up everyday and this is what they have and they work hard to be better.

Click to shrink...

I know at least 3 things:
1: billions of people currently believe, against all evidence and logic, in gods and spirits and ghosts.
2: billions of people have pointlessly suffered throughout the existence of our species, with specific events, like the ones I posted about andof which this thread is based on, having irrefutable evidence of having happened
3: willfull ignorance is to choose to deny facts, or to choose to believe in unsupported ideas, aka, the idea that there's a god that we should believe in and that everything was for a GOOD reason.

Also, I don't have a Nintendo

 

[BasilZero]

If pure evil can exist than so can pure love

Click to shrink...

This, perfectly said.

 

[Ichthyosaurus]

From the Bible itself, God comes off as a power-mongering mad scientist who demands worship and punishes people who disobey him with torture, death and then burning in eternal hellfire.

"Love" of God is extorted by the fear of his wrath.

So, yea. My kid isn't getting any teaching of God or religion from me.

Click to shrink...

Isn't Western concept of Hell not from the Bible but from Dante's Inferno? I don't think the Bible ever went deep into what Hell would be like, but it is canon the Christian God is not a friendly chap.

 

[Shroki]

Well I'm not really laying out a scientific argument for/against, but more of an emotional one, like as a kid when I learned that stuff, I was struck at my core. How, could we do this to each other!!! I guess since I was a pretty sheltered kid, learning about true evil just shook any belief I had out

I get that the alternate for some people is, "there's true evil so their must be true good"
But like, if there's a true good, why would they allow true evil?
That means they're not true good

Click to shrink...

The devil's advocate to this has always been: if humans have freedom of choice, and are judged based on their choices in their lifetimes, how could a divine hand guide us at all? Either we make choices or someone makes them for us, even if intervention is only meted out in grand places. And what are those consequences to God? Even if we're to believe god loves us, the worst experiences in life are going to be a blip against eternal life in heaven.

The better argument against god is the logical one: All of it is painfully obvious that all of it was concocted by man. None of the stories check out. None of the texts hold up to scrutiny.

 

[Uncle Squingis]

The idea is that the Christian God is hands-off, and this life is a test.... a test that you don't know the rules to unless you read and have faith in one book out of millions, a test which some people have loads of time to complete and others very little.

 

[kickz]

I mean belief in God tends to be he created the game pieces, hits play and after its over he judges it.

If nothing bad was happening whats there to judge.

 

[D i Z]

I know at least 3 things:
1: billions of people currently believe, against all evidence and logic, in gods and spirits and ghosts.
2: billions of people have pointlessly suffered throughout the existence of our species, with specific events, like the ones I posted about andof which this thread is based on, having irrefutable evidence of having happened
3: willfull ignorance is to choose to deny facts, or to choose to believe in unsupported ideas, aka, the idea that there's a god that we should believe in and that everything was for a GOOD reason.

Also, I don't have a Nintendo

Click to shrink...

"Gods spirits and Ghosts" for one
Billions of people have suffered because of white domination over the planet, people, and agriculture. Before that, yeah other folks too.
Willfull ignorance is to align your fellow man with reductive reasoning. Everytime.

 

[Blue Skies]

just curious, as children, what were your reactions when you found out that: oh wait, people are FUCKED UP?

posting again since y'all just read the title

 

[Deleted member 2652]

Fuck. Can we just not with this shit everyday? Every single damned day.

Click to shrink...

no one is forcing you to come into these threads unless a some unworldy being is forcing you then that sucks for you

 

[gutter_trash]

just curious, as children, what were your reactions when you found out that: oh wait, people are FUCKED UP?

posting again since y'all just read the title

Click to shrink...

Jesus was introduced to me late at 5 years old,
I had already picked up books on dinosaurs and the animal kingdom before then.

Kindergarten teacher was talking about Jesus this, Jesus that, all our fruits and vegetable come from Jesus

me "Jesus is a farmer?", teacher slaps me back of the head

 

[D i Z]

no one is forcing you to come into these threads unless a some unworldy being is forcing you then that sucks for you

Click to shrink...

Second person to say that, what being is forcing you to use the trope so willingly?
I get that this is your anti religion place, but the subject is religion. If you have nothing to say then don't deny those that do.
Question is why you here?

 

[Jakenbakin]

I mean... Slavery and genocide are IN the Bible. Even promoted in some general terms.