How do you react to sexual assault/harassment accusations?

[MrRob]

I posted this reply in the Piven thread but I want a broader discussion on this. I don't want to be insensitive in my reaction to this type of news. With more and more accusations coming out I feel it's an important discussion to have.

I absolutely want to believe the alleged victims. For too long people haven't which has made victims hesitant to speak out. I feel in my heart that we should take victims at their word.

My brain sometimes stands in the way of unquestionably believing every accusation. Should we not consider the word of the accused? Should the character and past of the accused be considered before reacting to allegations?

I hope this thread isn't taken the wrong way. I genuinely want to understand different perspectives on this.

Is there a right way to react to accusations like these?

 

[oledome]

It's fine to have reservations when you hear an accusation out of the blue but often we see a track record and talk of repeated behaviour.

 

[weemadarthur]

Your brain could consider the tracked rates of false accusations. From my time in HR, I learned a great many stats on the subject, and basically, it was hugely in favor of accusations being accurate and actionable, in the over-90% range. By the time victims actually speak up, the harassment or assault is so severe that it is provable.

Therefore it is reasonable to believe accusers by default, and only switch over to disbelief if allegations are proved false, keeping in mind that allegations may not be either actionable OR false.

 

[Platy]

These days you just site back and watch the person accused implode in trying to deny it

 

[The Almighty Tria]

It's hard, but I stay strictly in the middle unless it's an open and shut case. It's not fair to the accused to not get a fair shake to defend themselves, but it's also not fair to the accuser to not take their claims seriously.

It sucks, but there's no much you can do if you want to be a fair person.

 

[MrRob]

That is a good point in considering the statistics of accusations.

 

[CallMeShaft]

I try not to condemn a person over a single accusation without total evidence. The more accusations or evidence arise, the less leeway I give to the accused.

At the same time, I always try to show the accusers respect and kindness in what is very likely a difficult moment in their life.

It's a juggling act at times, but it is what it is.

 

[Bran Van]

Kind of depends on the accusation and situation

Weinstein feels pretty open and shut for example, considering the scale and number of victims. If the history of the person is not in their favour then I don't see how they deserve benefit of the doubt. You also have to consider that against these powerful figures, the victims are not going to get anything good by putting it in the limelight.

The response of the accused also matters alot. I think people were prepared to hear the response of He Who Must Not Be Named but it was so awful and really highlighted some serious issues he has, and pretty much confirmed things for many on that forum.

 

[MrRob]

It's good to know that others are a bit conflicted on this too. I think it's important to support accusers so that in the future it's easier for them to come out with things that have happened.

 

[CUD]

The problem is that accusations in themselves can be damaging so we should be listening to what the accused has to say in case the accusations are false. If they're proven to be true and they lied to cover things up well they've only dug a deeper hole for them self anyway.

While few people seem to do this, it would be ideal to listen to both perspectives but hold judgement until there is evidence one way or the other.

 

[SRG01]

Your brain could consider the tracked rates of false accusations. From my time in HR, I learned a great many stats on the subject, and basically, it was hugely in favor of accusations being accurate and actionable, in the over-90% range. By the time victims actually speak up, the harassment or assault is so severe that it is provable.

Therefore it is reasonable to believe accusers by default, and only switch over to disbelief if allegations are proved false, keeping in mind that allegations may not be either actionable OR false.

Click to shrink...

Yep. It's better to take the accusation seriously and investigate rather than to dismiss it as false from the get go.

It breaks my mind when people somehow think of the presumption of innocence and the prosecution of crimes are somehow exclusionary to each other.

 

[Hollywood Duo]

You should believe the accuser. The problem we get in to with all these high profile cases is the identity is revealed and not al the facts are presented so we are heavily fighting multiple biases.

 

[ashep]

"Most accusations turn out to be true" is a statistically valid but dangerous mindset as it pre-empts the presumption of innocence.

 

[Deleted member 4494]

Is there a right way to react to accusations like these?

Click to shrink...

Of course! And it starts with believing them, even if that is not the way it ends.

 

[Talraen]

I try to keep in mind something I recently heard that really resonated with me: most men more easily identify with being falsely accused of sexual harassment than with being victims of it. I try to suppress that reaction and take accusations seriously, which is tough. But I don't know if it's appropriate to dogpile on someone as soon as they're accused, either. I think anyone with a serious accusation leveled against them should be suspended and the accusation investigated, and then fired, charged, or whatever is appropriate for the situation if the accusations hold up.

I do worry about the statistical interpretation mentioned here, though. It's true that historically these accusations tend to be true, because the cost of making one is so high. But if the culture were to change such that accusations such as these were generally accepted by default, then someone with ill intentions could use that to level false accusations with little risk. I seriously doubt we're anywhere near that point, or ever will be, but it gives me pause on using historical statistics as our level of proof.

 

[shaneo632]

It's a tough one because accusations are usually correct but when they're not they can ruin someone's life, and the stigma will stay with them even when the accuser is discredited.

 

[Scarlet Death]

If it's a person I don't know very well, I just cut them off. If it's a person I know I talk to them about it, and tell them that they need to make it right and cease working with them until they have done so.

 

[Aerogamer]

I want to try to give the benefit of doubt, innocent until proven guilty mindset, but the accusations usually turn out to be true and I cannot truly give an objective take on it. I suppose anybody with any past behaviors that indicate that they would sexually harass others, I do not really give the benefit of doubt to.

 

[RDreamer]

How do I react? Not terribly surprised. Unfortunately a massive amount of men in our society have sexually assaulted/harassed in the past, and the amount of accusers that just make things up is pretty insanely small. It's unsurprising when it happens and my reaction is probably that justice probably won't be done because that's reality.

 

[Betty]

I believe the victim, but I don't condemn the alleged harasser unless I am positive they are guilty. Like they make excuses or try to apologise, then i don't want to hear it.

 

[ScatheZombie]

The vast, vast majority of sexual harassment and assault allegations are generally true.

The vast, vast majority of people have, at some point in their lives, done some things they probably aren't proud of.

Statistically, those two are going to intersect an embarrassing amount more than they are not.

The presumption of innocence only exists within the legal framework of a court room, not between individuals, and is often a red herring because predators know that most cases of harassment and even assault are extremely difficult, often impossible, to prove by legal standards and use that as a method to silence and intimidate their victims.

"No one will believe you."

The proper response of anyone is to believe an accusation but reserve punishment for further details.

 

[MrRob]

I believe the victim, but I don't condemn the alleged harasser unless I am positive they are guilty. Like they make excuses or try to apologise, then i don't want to hear it.

Click to shrink...

I feel like this is the way I react also. I don't feel like it's right to condemn the person accused unless there is history of that type of behavior.

 

[ashep]

I find it interesting that whenever the "would you approach a crying woman/lost child" question is posed, the prevailing sentiment amongst many males is; no, because I wouldn't want to open myself up to a false accusation or for anyone to misinterpret what I was doing. However in this thread, "False accusations are rare therefore you should always believe the accuser" is the popular response.

Seems to me that many people are happy to deploy the "people might make something up" argument when it comes to protecting their self interest and justifying their own actions, however when 3rd parties are involved, that presumption of innocence goes right out the window.

 

[AdropOFvenom]

Sadness, not surprised.

It feels overwhelming because there's so much of it coming out all at once, but there's safety in numbers. People obviously feel more comfortable telling their stories when there's dozens of others telling similar stories, often about the same people.

I do believe that fundamentally the accused should have a chance to respectfully try to clear their name, or sometimes depending on the circumstances just to apologize, but in these cases the accused seem more inclined to self-implode, which probably tells you what you need to know.

 

[Mo0]

I feel like this is the way I react also. I don't feel like it's right to condemn the person accused unless there is history of that type of behavior.

Click to shrink...

At the same time, I don't blame any of these high profile people's employers from distancing themselves immediately. It's probsbly better to avoid looking like you're covering for them.

 

[RDreamer]

I find it interesting that whenever the "would you approach a crying woman/lost child" question is posed, the prevailing sentiment amongst many males is; no, because I wouldn't want to open myself up to a false accusation or for anyone to misinterpret what I was doing. However in this thread, "False accusations are rare therefore you should always believe the accuser" is the popular response.

Seems to me that many people are happy to deploy the "people might make something up" argument when it comes to protecting their self interest and justifying their own actions, however when 3rd parties are involved, that presumption of innocence goes right out the window.

Click to shrink...

Wait what? Prevailing sentiment among males is not to help a lost child? I'm pretty sure that's wrong.

 

[Deleted member 25600]

A lot of the time I think "Well that's quite disappointing" but wait until more accusations or evidence appears before voicing any opinions.

 

[ScatheZombie]

I find it interesting that whenever the "would you approach a crying woman/lost child" question is posed, the prevailing sentiment amongst many males is; no, because I wouldn't want to open myself up to a false accusation or for anyone to misinterpret what I was doing. However in this thread, "False accusations are rare therefore you should always believe the accuser" is the popular response.

Seems to me that many people are happy to deploy the "people might make something up" argument when it comes to protecting their self interest and justifying their own actions, however when 3rd parties are involved, that presumption of innocence goes right out the window.

Click to shrink...

Some people having an irrational fear of false accusations has nothing to do with the statistical reality of the actual likelihood and frequency of them.

I would also say that 'prevailing sentiment' isn't accurate. I say that confidently as a grown man who just spent the night literally giving children candy.

 

[Psrock1]

We should stop making assumption based on beliefs. Each situation is different, wait for more information. Don't judge either side upon hearing the initial accusation.

 

[quincognito]

"Most accusations turn out to be true" is a statistically valid but dangerous mindset as it pre-empts the presumption of innocence.

Click to shrink...

The presumption of innocence is a legal principle that need not (and really, should not) be applied broadly to individuals in daily life.

 

[SRG01]

Some people having an irrational fear of false accusations has nothing to do with the statistical reality of the actual likelihood and frequency of them.

I would also say that 'prevailing sentiment' isn't accurate. I say that confidently as a grown man who just spent the night literally giving children candy.

Click to shrink...

I think there's a psychological term for that -- where ordinary and/or mundane situations become greatly magnified in a person's life.

The presumption of innocence is a legal principle that need not (and really, should not) be applied broadly to individuals in daily life.

Click to shrink...

... However, I do fundamentally disagree with this sentiment. It's not that either presumption of innocence or believing the accuser takes precedent, but rather the requirement of evidence and the honest (and genuine) investigation of any situation should be of the utmost importance.

 

[ashep]

The presumption of innocence is a legal principle that need not (and really, should not) be applied broadly to individuals in daily life.

Click to shrink...

In a society where reputational damage has been proven to destroy the lives of innocent people I completely disagree.

 

[Coyote Starrk]

I wait until both sides have an opportunity to respond and provide whatever evidence they have to back up their accusations or to defend themselves from said accusations. Then I go from there.

To me it sets a VERY bad precedent to automatically believe one side or the other.

 

[Mo0]

A lot of the time I think "Well that's quite disappointing" but wait until more accusations or evidence appears before voicing any opinions.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, this. Until there's something a bit more firm, anything other than expressing disappointment just reeks of minimizing the victim and is indistinguishable from concern trolling, so it's for the best, really.

 

[Deleted member 42]

I believe the accuser unless something is glaringly off.

 

[quincognito]

In a society where reputational damage has been proven to destroy the lives of innocent people I completely disagree.

Click to shrink...

I mean okay, cool, except like everyone else on Earth you definitely don't live your life this way moment to moment so it's pretty questionable to insist on it solely in the realm of sexual crimes.

 

[Squarehard]

Surprised so many people are still surprised.

 

[Quazar]

Indifferent. I've seen/witnessed several cases where I knew it was bs. Also, have personally been accused of physical assault and proven innocent. I can tell you first hand sitting in jail thinking about what happened and what these fuckers are thinking about you is a crime in of itself when you're innocent. I have nothing but the best wishes for those who are truly victims, but I've seen/felt the lies and treachery that can happen from ones own motives, typically control. I try to believe but I remain skeptical until the rule of law.

 

[Mo0]

I mean okay, cool, except like everyone else on Earth you definitely don't live your life this way moment to moment so it's pretty questionable to insist on it solely in the realm of sexual crimes.

Click to shrink...

God, this. We're so quick to believe any number of other accusations before proof has been put in front of us, this one just has a barrier for some reason that people struggle to cross. I wish I knew why.

 

[Valkerion]

As much as I wish that the world took a middle stance until more information is made available to make a judgement. Like others said accusations can ruin lives and to see people immediately burn down the house so to speak before someone can say anything always sucks.

That said, of course I, as we all should take it seriously. As much as I hate to say it the last month has been pretty vicious in terms of reactions to accusations. There has been less, "yes, let's condemn these people and prove their monsters so they can be charged" and more pitchfork and torch wielding angry mob.

 

[Mr_Black]

It's a weird one because one of my girl pals back in the day, she's still with her current boyfriend soon to be husband. She used to stand in front of me and rub my penis through my pants. And sometimes just brush her titties on me. But really subtly. I was attracted to her, sure it was kind of mutual. But at the same time I didn't ask for any of it, and I'm best friends with her boyfriend soon to be husband. But she did do that.

If I came out and publicly outed her for that, the colossal shit storm that would ensue in terms of ramifications with all my friendship group would be so absolutely fucked. I mean yeah she did grope my wang and rubbed on me. But at the same time I recognize that it was all in good fun. But I never conducted myself inappropriately to her. But she must of known I liked her I guess.

But she still didn't ask for my consent, she was drunk and she groped my junk.

But yeah man, the shit storm. I wouldn't ever do that to her.

 

[ashep]

I mean okay, cool, except like everyone else on Earth you definitely don't live your life this way moment to moment so it's pretty questionable to insist on it solely in the realm of sexual crimes.

Click to shrink...

I get what you're saying but if someone runs up to you in the street and says "Hey that other guy just punched me in the face" are you going to instantly believe them and condemn the other guy?

It's interesting because I think people are distilling a nuanced situation into a binary response.

If someone throws out an accusation on twitter, there's a distinction between "believing them" i.e. the accused perpetrator is definitely guilty, and taking the accusation seriously but giving the accused perpetrator the benefit of the doubt.

To me the latter is incontrovertibly the correct approach.

 

[RDreamer]

In a society where reputational damage has been proven to destroy the lives of innocent people I completely disagree.

Click to shrink...

In a society where an unfathomable amount more people have had their lives destroyed because they couldn't come forward or did come forward and weren't even believed I disagree with you.

 

[ashep]

In a society where an unfathomable amount more people have had their lives destroyed because they couldn't come forward or did come forward and weren't even believed I disagree with you.

Click to shrink...

Yeah sorry but that's a false equivalence. Im not saying to disbelieve an accuser but you can take their accusation seriously whilst giving the accused the presumption of innocence.

One does not preclude the other and attempting correlate them is disengenuous.

 

[ScatheZombie]

I wouldn't ever do that to her.

Click to shrink...

Wow.

That humble-brag that you could have ruined someone's life by destroying their marriage over admitted mutual flirting... but didn't, because you are just that nice of a person.

Sheesh.

 

[RDreamer]

I get what you're saying but if someone runs up to you in the street and says "Hey that other guy just punched me in the face" are you going to instantly believe them and condemn the other guy?

Click to shrink...

I don't know what "condiment the other guy" means but I think most people definitely do believe this right off the bat and try to offer help in some way, like contacting authorities or getting someone away from the situation. That's instinct. And people usually don't just make shit up and run up to others asking for emergency help.

Are you that paranoid about false accusations that you're not going to help protect someone that claims to have been punched in the face and you're possibly not even helping lost children? That is not normal behavior.

 

[quincognito]

I get what you're saying but if someone runs up to you in the street and says "Hey that other guy just punched me in the face" are you going to instantly believe them and condemn the other guy?

Click to shrink...

Well a few people have brought up the distinction between trusting that an accusation is correct and actually fully condemning someone already. In that situation I'm not gonna get a posse to go beat up the other guy but I'm definitely gonna do everything I can to protect the guy who was getting beaten up from further violence, I'm not a monster.

 

[Vestal]

You should believe the accuser. The problem we get in to with all these high profile cases is the identity is revealed and not al the facts are presented so we are heavily fighting multiple biases.

Click to shrink...

The problem is, that even if 9 out of 10(as someone else posted) the accuser is telling the truth, there is always that 1 time were someones life is ruined because they are falsely accused and once they are cleared the damage is already done, and the clearing of said charges does nothing to correct the stigma.

I speak from personal experience in the matter. My father was accused of a crime back in the 90s and was found innocent of all charges(woman made the whole thing up, video proved it).. However his career(public facing one) was pretty much over because of it, and caused unimaginable pain and suffering for everyone in my family.

I am not saying you shouldn't believe the accuser, but there needs to be a balance to it, unless there is strong public evidence of prior bad acts or behaviors.

 

[Quazar]

In a society where an unfathomable amount more people have had their lives destroyed because they couldn't come forward or did come forward and weren't even believed I disagree with you.

Click to shrink...

I can tell you for a fact you haven't met that evil yet. Don't judge so heavily. People do/say crazy shit that never happened. Good luck with that line of thinking when your life / status is on the line.

 

[ashep]

Well a few people have brought up the distinction between trusting that an accusation is correct and actually fully condemning someone already. In that situation I'm not gonna get a posse to go beat up the other guy but I'm definitely gonna do everything I can to protect the guy who was getting beaten up from further violence, I'm not a monster.

Click to shrink...

That's fair. If you read the Piven thread however it's all "fuck that guy/I knew he was an asshole/I hope his career is over" based on a single tweet he immediately and categorically denied. That's the reaction I'm pushing back against.

Shit, even the Sandler thread was full of people labelling him a creep and revelling in him being "outed" as such.