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How do you react to sexual assault/harassment accusations?
- Thread starter MrRob
- Start date
Mostly innocent until proven guilty, but it depends on the number of accusers and past behaviour. If someone has bragged about sexual assault in the past and they get hit with new allegations, it's pretty hard not to side with the alleged victim. If the number of victims is as big as Bill Cosby's, it's also more logical for me to believe the victims than to believe there's a giant conspiracy against him.
I usually believe them right away, though some of my work experience tells me I shouldn't.
A good while back, an inmate's 14-year-old daughter accused him of sexually abusing her before he was arrested. His cellmates beat him to death as soon as they got wind of it. Turns out his ex-wife, angry at him for leaving her, persuaded their daughter so she would press charges. Apparently she had been blackmailing him in order to get back together and he didn't believe she would really do anything. He wasn't a great father by any stretch, but he had never done anything wrong with his daughter either.
That sort of thing makes me want to take a step back and wait a moment before start point fingers. It's not that I don't believe the victim, I just don't want to see someone having their life destroyed without deserving it.
A good while back, an inmate's 14-year-old daughter accused him of sexually abusing her before he was arrested. His cellmates beat him to death as soon as they got wind of it. Turns out his ex-wife, angry at him for leaving her, persuaded their daughter so she would press charges. Apparently she had been blackmailing him in order to get back together and he didn't believe she would really do anything. He wasn't a great father by any stretch, but he had never done anything wrong with his daughter either.
That sort of thing makes me want to take a step back and wait a moment before start point fingers. It's not that I don't believe the victim, I just don't want to see someone having their life destroyed without deserving it.
I don't suppose you have links to publicly available stats? It would be great to have some resources to send to people.
But your actions are its better to say this exact phrase to 1000 women who have been harassed or raped than to say it 10 men who have falsely accused. Fuck this and this stance.
I think there is a faddish quality to how people are focusing on it right now, but since a lot of these things are actual sexual assault crimes then that isn't necessarily a bad thing if it brings about a change in culture that stops these crimes from occurring in the first place, but I don't have much to say about it. If I encountered it in my own life, I'd have something to say and I would see if there was anything I could do to help. I don't know what is actually going on in any of these situations. That isn't to say I'm sceptical of the claims, but it isn't my business and I don't have all the info, so I'll just stay out of it.
That's all I've got to say about it, really. It's kind of the same with any crime - it's far removed from me, except when it isn't, and when it isn't, I do what I can to help, or support the people who are helping.
That's all I've got to say about it, really. It's kind of the same with any crime - it's far removed from me, except when it isn't, and when it isn't, I do what I can to help, or support the people who are helping.
If the alternative is 10 men, falsely accused, imprisoned and life destroyed, then yes that's completely and totally unacceptable.
Fuck that, fuck that stance and fuck anyone who would take a "greater good" approach that would destroy more lives.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but people often don't seem to look at the flip-side: Most rape accusations are true, but most won't go to court, let alone see a conviction. I think we can agree that most rapists will rape multiple times.
So here lies the problem: More rapists will go free than men(or women) falsely accused of rape. Many of those rapists will go on to ruin countless other lives. In essence, more lives are ruined overall by a rapist being free than by a false accusation. What about those lives? The lives of the raped basically have to just deal with this reality.
I want to point out, again, that the court of law should still operate on innocent until proven guilty. I also don't think that an accusation alone should ruin a person's life. But we can't ignore what the result of this is for victims. It sucks, and it benefits rapists.
Literally all you're saying is you care more about the lives of 10 hypothetical men than the lives of 1000 hypothetical women.
Which is why we should take all accusations (not just of rape) seriously, try to prove them in court, and provide both a social framework and social services to help those that have been hurt, especially for those who don't find legal justice in the system.
I mean these public accusations are pretty vetted and almost always have corroboration at the time and have a pretty established pattern of leading to more accusations.
I mean I've yet to see a false accusation make it to huge news and nobody seems to ever produce any evidence that these women and men are lying about their accusations
I mean I've yet to see a false accusation make it to huge news and nobody seems to ever produce any evidence that these women and men are lying about their accusations
And just like stats don't matter to a person falsely accused, this means little to those who are actually raped.
User was warned for: personal attacks, please be more civil when disagreeing
Ruining 10 hypothetical lives to better 1000 hypothetical lives isn't an acceptable approach. It's still an injustice, and depending on how the 10 are sentenced or treated, possibly a massive injustice.
If it is acceptable to you, more power to you, but I think you're a shit person. You're free to think the same of me, I don't really care.
Which is pretty much the issue isn't it.
Even if the accused has a track record, sexual assault is a serious accusation and needs to be properly investigated. It's not that I don't believe the victim. However, I would like to see evidence/proof, gather more information, etc. And I think that's reasonable. If you have multiple women coming forward and accusing one man, I definitely lean towards the feeling that he's probably guilty, but I still think that each one of those accusations needs to be properly investigated. To be clear, I highly doubt it would be a mass conspiracy. Some people immediately jump on the hate bandwagon without any evidence/proof in a "she said, he said" event. Maybe the guy was a scumbag in the past but a serious accusation like this needs to be treated as an isolated incident. That goes for anything serious - sexual assault, sexual harassment, rape, murder, etc. As an example, just because a man sexually harassed somebody two years ago doesn't immediately make him a rapist now. If we start pointing fingers at people and attacking them without evidence, that will lead to a lot of injustice and innocent lives could potentially be destroyed. I understand things like this are hard to prove, especially in a 1 vs 1 situation but we can't just immediately attack someone. In this case, it's multiple women coming forward and I do believe them. I have no reason not to. But I'll still wait for the results of an investigation.
There is never going to a be a 1 to 1 jailing/legal punishment ratio for harassment and rape. Its simply to hard to prove it happened without a recording or another act of violence committed with it. Your romanticized version that 10 men will have "their life ruined" by being falsely accused when that doesn't even have to actual racists is damning on your stance and how it actively hurts the lives of women in favor of men.
Mostly they were subscription services.
I've been trying to recall if there is a government site, but at this time it's not coming to mind. Ten years is a long time for my brain.
No problem, just means I have to do some research on my own.
I already knew about Weinstein but it actually being made public was pretty shocking. I didn't think any repercussions would come since they never have before, but thankfully I was wrong.
Now though? I hate to say it, but I kind of have been putting it in the back of my head like I did before everyone started getting exposed a few weeks back. And I know that everyone else will eventually arrive at the same place and it'll be like it never happened. Everything is a "fad" online, especially human or nonhuman suffering. People just post and repost everywhere and feel like they've done something when they haven't. It's just the flavor of the week. It's just the thing to care about right now. Everyone is paying attention to this and people see this as an opportunity to show other people how good and thoughtful they are.
Honestly, I'm done with the whole thing. The majority of Twitter and online news sources will stop caring before the year is done, I guarantee it. I might as well beat them to it.
Unlike others, I have no shame in admitting I'm selfish. At least according to my definition of being unselfish. Maybe other people have lesser thresholds for it. I don't know.
It's all very depressing.
Now though? I hate to say it, but I kind of have been putting it in the back of my head like I did before everyone started getting exposed a few weeks back. And I know that everyone else will eventually arrive at the same place and it'll be like it never happened. Everything is a "fad" online, especially human or nonhuman suffering. People just post and repost everywhere and feel like they've done something when they haven't. It's just the flavor of the week. It's just the thing to care about right now. Everyone is paying attention to this and people see this as an opportunity to show other people how good and thoughtful they are.
Honestly, I'm done with the whole thing. The majority of Twitter and online news sources will stop caring before the year is done, I guarantee it. I might as well beat them to it.
Unlike others, I have no shame in admitting I'm selfish. At least according to my definition of being unselfish. Maybe other people have lesser thresholds for it. I don't know.
It's all very depressing.
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Well exhibit A for that would be the duke lacrosse case. I think anyone who paid attention to the news on that a decade ago nlearned some lessons on getting too far ahead on things, by which I mean developing and exhibiting overly strong reactions, that you don't personally have knowledge of or know the persons involved.
As long as you recognize that it doesn't make you a better person because, as you admit yourself, you don't care, and aren't gonna do anything about it. But the honest is appreciated.
I believe them. The overwhelming majority of victims stand to lose a lot by being honest about what happened to them, and even those that relatively ride it out still face significant consequences. It's not something people really lie about often enough to be significant.
I'm not on a jury. The only thing I can offer is belief and support.
I'm not on a jury. The only thing I can offer is belief and support.
Believing them while staying neutral and fair.
Such accusations in the connected world today are a potent weapon so I will stay neutral most of the time while considering the past of both sides and the general behavior each gender has.
Probably boils down to "facts", which is more in line with the laws then how the public functions most of the time.
Such accusations in the connected world today are a potent weapon so I will stay neutral most of the time while considering the past of both sides and the general behavior each gender has.
Probably boils down to "facts", which is more in line with the laws then how the public functions most of the time.
Cool, but I'm not a judge. My personal belief isn't gonna determine if someone gets convicted.
I err on the side of believing the victim. I'm not on a jury. I'm a dude sitting behind a computer reading articles and forums.
Considering how rare false accusations are, coupled with how incredibly difficult it is for a victim to even whisper about their assault, let alone come forward and name their abuser, I feel comfortable in taking their word for it. And then, if in the future, some information comes forward that makes me reconsider the accusations, I'll process that information and see where I go from there.
Having known people who have been sexually assaulted and harassed, and having been a victim of sexual assault and harassment myself, my first response is to believe the victim and listen to their story. It should go without saying that I also listen to the accused's version of events, but first response? Believe, listen, support.
Considering how rare false accusations are, coupled with how incredibly difficult it is for a victim to even whisper about their assault, let alone come forward and name their abuser, I feel comfortable in taking their word for it. And then, if in the future, some information comes forward that makes me reconsider the accusations, I'll process that information and see where I go from there.
Having known people who have been sexually assaulted and harassed, and having been a victim of sexual assault and harassment myself, my first response is to believe the victim and listen to their story. It should go without saying that I also listen to the accused's version of events, but first response? Believe, listen, support.
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As long as we don't start advocating for judges and juries to operate this way.
All the people saying "innocent until proven guilty", are you extending this same grace to the accusers?
One side has to be wrong in this situation, so you might as well back the side that far and away is more honest.
One side has to be wrong in this situation, so you might as well back the side that far and away is more honest.
This isn't a realistic concern. It's a long way to go before we're at that point.
Let's start with police taking rape and sexual assault seriously, testing rape kits (and ending the backlog), ending the statute of limitations everywhere, fixing juror bias when it comes to rape and for the few perpetrators that actually do end up being convicted, giving them appropriate sentences.
conflicting thoughts.
I feel like the tenancy for people to immediately assume the worse of the accused without any facts or evidence makes sexual harassment accusations an extremely powerful weapon to possibly be used maliciously. Especially against people with something to lose, the only acceptable public reaction is to immediately apologize. Even when the apology basically boils down to "I didn't, but i'm sorry I made you feel that way." And especially because false accusations are never given as much vitriol as the base accusation.
This isn't to suggest any kind of ratio of genuine to false accusations. But there's the slant.
However...
On the flip side...unlike most people here (i'm sure), i've gotten more..."exposure" to shit like this than i've ever wanted to.
I work in a clinic where we do blood testing for things like STDs. Most people generally preemptively run their mouth about why they're there, probably because they're nervous? "I wanna be safe, I just came from overseas (prostitutes), one night stand, girlfriend/boyfriend cheated on me", ect ect.
But i've had multiple women confess to me that they were molested / date raped. Every single story involved a guy with a strong allure, or some degree of power/money. Their general sentiment every time seems to be that they just want to make sure they're clean, and immediately "put it behind them". And every single time, they are adverse to actually going after the aggressor, for a multitude of reasons. It's embarassing, they don't want to get their family/friends involved, they don't want to go on the offensive against the guy, the guy is unreachable, ect ect.
So....yeah. That's why the slant exists. : /
If i have no personal connection, I react on a by-case basis. It's all I can do in situations like this.
I feel like the tenancy for people to immediately assume the worse of the accused without any facts or evidence makes sexual harassment accusations an extremely powerful weapon to possibly be used maliciously. Especially against people with something to lose, the only acceptable public reaction is to immediately apologize. Even when the apology basically boils down to "I didn't, but i'm sorry I made you feel that way." And especially because false accusations are never given as much vitriol as the base accusation.
This isn't to suggest any kind of ratio of genuine to false accusations. But there's the slant.
However...
On the flip side...unlike most people here (i'm sure), i've gotten more..."exposure" to shit like this than i've ever wanted to.
I work in a clinic where we do blood testing for things like STDs. Most people generally preemptively run their mouth about why they're there, probably because they're nervous? "I wanna be safe, I just came from overseas (prostitutes), one night stand, girlfriend/boyfriend cheated on me", ect ect.
But i've had multiple women confess to me that they were molested / date raped. Every single story involved a guy with a strong allure, or some degree of power/money. Their general sentiment every time seems to be that they just want to make sure they're clean, and immediately "put it behind them". And every single time, they are adverse to actually going after the aggressor, for a multitude of reasons. It's embarassing, they don't want to get their family/friends involved, they don't want to go on the offensive against the guy, the guy is unreachable, ect ect.
So....yeah. That's why the slant exists. : /
If i have no personal connection, I react on a by-case basis. It's all I can do in situations like this.
When I'm far away, the same way I approach any situation. Sit back, and wait for more evidence one way or another. I've said it before, sexual harassers rarely only ever act once. There is usually a repeatable pattern of behavior. Once that comes out I have no problems judging the accused. Otherwise, I usually refrain from commenting, aside from "what a jerk if true."
When it's some one I know and am friends or friendly with coming to me about anything, I always believe them. If I hung around them, that means I like them to some extent, and it'd kind of be a dick move for me not to believe them and try to help them as much as possible.
When it's some one I know and am friends or friendly with coming to me about anything, I always believe them. If I hung around them, that means I like them to some extent, and it'd kind of be a dick move for me not to believe them and try to help them as much as possible.
I choose to believe the victim in situations of abuse. All the fear mongering about the potential of an innocent person being accused of abuse does is give abusers an easy out with ready allies and create an environment that is inhospitable to victims. Both of which create a scenario where the abuse can easily continue.
It's a little frustrating to discuss sexual assault on male-dominated message boards... The conversation almost always revolves around false accusations, which are rare, rather than on more effective ways to prosecute sexual assault, legal reforms, or ways to change social attitudes about rape. If we lived in a world that prosecuted rape like any other crime, maybe worrying about false accusations would make more sense. As it is, the chances of a rape case that actually goes to court being false are incredibly, incredibly small.
That said, I believe the victim just like I do the victim of any other crime. If something suspicious comes to light, then I'll reevaluate. And not something suspicious like common sexual assault myths of "why did s/he interact with/have sex with their assaulter afterward", "why didn't s/he react like __", etc.
I find responses about letting the police sort it out to be dismissive. The justice system does not handle sexual assault well. You can find tons of articles about police re-traumatizing victims. I'm not advocating mob violence, but please don't act like our current system does right by victims of sexual assault. Sadly, I have a lot of friends who have been raped, and their experiences have made me re-think whether I would go to the police. One of my friends had bruises on her neck and couldn't even get her "progressive" college to help her move rooms or change her classes to stay away from her rapist. I don't have a single friend who's had a good experience dealing with the authorities when they were assaulted. Anecdotes aren't everything, but my personal lived experience has led me to expect not to be believed.
Sometimes it feels like 5 women's word = 1 man's word in these discussions. And even when multiple women come forward, if someone doesn't want to believe a famous or well-liked man committed assault, then they probably won't. Men who've been assaulted are often questioned on how that's even possible, which is so freaking gross. The default is to disbelieve sexual assault victims, which is another reason I choose to believe them.
That said, I believe the victim just like I do the victim of any other crime. If something suspicious comes to light, then I'll reevaluate. And not something suspicious like common sexual assault myths of "why did s/he interact with/have sex with their assaulter afterward", "why didn't s/he react like __", etc.
I find responses about letting the police sort it out to be dismissive. The justice system does not handle sexual assault well. You can find tons of articles about police re-traumatizing victims. I'm not advocating mob violence, but please don't act like our current system does right by victims of sexual assault. Sadly, I have a lot of friends who have been raped, and their experiences have made me re-think whether I would go to the police. One of my friends had bruises on her neck and couldn't even get her "progressive" college to help her move rooms or change her classes to stay away from her rapist. I don't have a single friend who's had a good experience dealing with the authorities when they were assaulted. Anecdotes aren't everything, but my personal lived experience has led me to expect not to be believed.
Sometimes it feels like 5 women's word = 1 man's word in these discussions. And even when multiple women come forward, if someone doesn't want to believe a famous or well-liked man committed assault, then they probably won't. Men who've been assaulted are often questioned on how that's even possible, which is so freaking gross. The default is to disbelieve sexual assault victims, which is another reason I choose to believe them.
I want to believe the accuser, but I feel like the accusation (whether true or false) will ruin someone's career. Minds are made up immediately.
But then my mind goes... Well we live in a world where Emett Till happened, now minority men may not be getting lynched for false accusations but they are getting locked up.
So what is my thought process?
It's sad to admit ....a case by case basis.
I'll believe any woman who talks about Weinstein even if false because that dude is so damn creepy my mind says "it's probably true"
Edit: I suddenly get the sinking feeling I shouldn't have mentioned Emett Till. Apologies if that offends any of the people that 100% believe people with no room for doubt.
But then my mind goes... Well we live in a world where Emett Till happened, now minority men may not be getting lynched for false accusations but they are getting locked up.
So what is my thought process?
It's sad to admit ....a case by case basis.
I'll believe any woman who talks about Weinstein even if false because that dude is so damn creepy my mind says "it's probably true"
Edit: I suddenly get the sinking feeling I shouldn't have mentioned Emett Till. Apologies if that offends any of the people that 100% believe people with no room for doubt.
This is a damned interesting question, and it's one that I've personally grappled with: I used to prosecute sex crimes, and I even had one verifiable instance of false reporting (where the alleged victim recanted her story). I think it's fundamentally important to understand the following:
* In my case, when I was in Afghanistan, there was a general prohibition on all sex. One woman entered into a consensual social relationship, but she claimed she was pressured so that she could avoid getting into trouble. To her credit, she later explained this, and both her and the guy were appropriately punished -- but he didn't face a rape charge.
I will say that every other case I worked involved a true (or at least "not false") accusation, however.
- Very few women falsely report; participating in sexual assault investigations and prosecutions is not fun.
- The criminal justice system has discernible difficulties in handling sexual assault cases.
- The burden of proof in criminal cases is simply that. (You can be guilty without being found guilty in a legal sense.)
- There are myriad reasons why victims can't or won't report, as well as different persons they're more or less willing to report to.
* In my case, when I was in Afghanistan, there was a general prohibition on all sex. One woman entered into a consensual social relationship, but she claimed she was pressured so that she could avoid getting into trouble. To her credit, she later explained this, and both her and the guy were appropriately punished -- but he didn't face a rape charge.
I will say that every other case I worked involved a true (or at least "not false") accusation, however.
OP
OP
Wow. Got ourselves a real life Law and Order SUV here on ERA. I bet that was a really tough job from an emotional standpoint. Unless you are very good at compartmentalizing. I guess in a profession like that being good at compartmentalization is damn near a job requirement.
I'm glad I made this thread. There are a bunch of interesting perspectives in here and I've learned a good deal how delicate this subject can be. I hope others were able to learn a bit from this thread too.
I'll generally believe the accuser, but it also depends on how I feel about the accused. But more often than not, I'll wait for the facts. I will however, judge everyone involved.
I think you have to presume somone is innocent but also not victimise the accuser. That said, the power is definitely in the hands of the accuser as very often accusations have wide and immediate impact - even if its not true.
Eg. I can think of are the man who tried to help a boy who was lost and was accused of being a pedophile and had to move state because of all the death threats. Read that on the other forum a few months back.
Here's another example:
https://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/men-fear-helping-out-kids-in-danger-children/1501308/