"How do you represent something that's never allowed you to be considered human?" 5 Interviews w/ 'Falcon/Winter Soldier' Showrunner Malcolm Spellman

[MadLaughter]

Malcolm Spellman Interview: The Falcon & The Winter Soldier

Our chat with the showrunner!

screenrant.com

In the real world, there's frequently of erasure of Black participation in the military. The Kneeling controversy pitted that against the military and the flag. However, the truth is that black people have been fighting and dying in American wars for centuries. This show has prominent black military leaders, like Sam and Rhodey. What kind of opportunity do you have to explore the notion of black military sacrifice, and how do you layer that into the subtext?

Malcolm Spellman: You are dialed in, and I cannot wait for you to watch the series because it is dealt with directly and in what we feel is a very honest way. I don't want to provide spoilers, but Sam would have never let us back away. I showed up not to back away, and it is a big part of Sam's journey. I cannot wait; you're gonna love it.

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How Marvel's 'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier' takes on race, patriotism and Captain America

With Captain America gone, his friends get the spotlight in Disney+'s 'The Falcon and the Winter,' a new Marvel show exploring race and patriotism.

www.usatoday.com

The end of “Endgame" is where “Falcon” begins: After a time-travel jaunt, an elderly Cap returns to leave his star-spangled shield for Sam. Instead of immediately accepting the mantle, Sam says “It feels like it belongs to someone else.” That quote was “a guiding principle” for Spellman. “What would make someone say that and respond that way?” he says.

“If people think this show is about Sam carrying that shield and being Captain America, it is not.”

“The thing I most wanted to explore was the conflict of a Black man becoming Captain America or not,” Spellman says. “What does it mean if he succeeds? What does it mean if he fails?”

Mackie, 42, felt it was a “perfect time” to tackle the issue in a Marvel project. “It's a very universal conversation amongst Black men, and it's always been that way,” the actor explains. “The loudest voice in that conversation was Muhammad Ali when they were trying to force him to go to Vietnam. How do you represent something that's never appreciated, respected or in any way, shape or form allowed you to be considered human? How do you love the person who's never shown you love and who's mentally abusive towards you? There's a psychological aspect to it that a lot of people have never dealt with and aren't willing to deal with.”

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'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier' Showrunner Malcolm Spellman Wants to Revolutionize What a Marvel Hero Can Be [Interview]

In our Falcon and the Winter Soldier Showrunner interview, Malcolm Spellman explains how the new series reinvents the Marvel superhero.

www.slashfilm.com

With these two title characters, you’re presented with a gift: two characters audiences already love, but who’ve been supporting characters and who haven’t been fleshed out. So you have characters we’re ready to learn about and there are a lot of questions for you as a writer to start answering. So what were the big questions you knew you had to ask about Sam Wilson and Bucky Barnes?

What I loved about it is all the stuff we wanted to tackle for the characters was apparent and boxed up and ready to unpack. Meaning this: we know Bucky has done awful stuff for the last eighty, 85 years, right? We know he’s been manipulated and hasn’t been in his right mind. And we know that he’s never really had a second to breathe or become an actual human being. The audience knows that also, right? On top of that, Bucky is 106 years old and has never been present in one era long enough to be of that moment, so the out of place-ness for him is extraordinary. Again, the audience knows all that, so for us, what we wanted to tackle with him was obvious. It allowed everybody to deal with character issues in a very human way with a shorthand that the audience is going to have.

Same thing with Sam. The reason I came to this project was the idea of a Black man confronting that shield and the stars and stripes, right? And the ambivalent feelings I would have about it, obviously Sam would. That wasn’t lost on [actor Anthony] Mackie or Nate Moore, who is our Marvel exec. We knew when we dove deep into Sam, we wanted to position him in a way that felt relevant to today so that journey about whether he says yes – you’ve seen the pilot – or no, creates great emotion and a struggle and a story that people in the real world can be like, “Man, I get that, and that’s compelling.”

I read some of the recent-ish comics where Sam takes up the mantle of Captain America, and it struck me as powerful, the idea of him having all the power to do this job, but society itself has programmed him with doubt. That was something that I think registers in this episode really well.

We dig deeper and deeper and deeper into that. When you see how it confronts him, and the answer is not the obvious answer, I hope it’s going to be very satisfying. Because yeah, you can’t be honest in your storytelling and just have Sam pick up after Endgame and take off and fight battles, you know what I’m saying? That would be disrespectful to him, that would be disrespectful to our culture, and it would be bad storytelling. So yeah, that doubt is what fuels Sam’s journey, and that doubt is rooted in real stuff.

There’s a scene in the episode – I don’t want to go too deep into details because people haven’t seen the episode yet when they’ll read this – but we see Sam is treated as a hero in one moment, and then is disrespected by the same person in a really micro-aggressive way. I kept thinking about athletes who are celebrated, but then told to shut up when they speak their minds. Is that what you were going for in those scenes?

Yeah, I think it’s even more common than that, but several people have made that exact comparison. I do think you can see everyone from Skippy Gates to Barack Obama to every one of us who is Black in day to day life have those experiences. When you think about the fact that senators and judges no matter how powerful, or athletes no matter how famous they are, have this basic common confrontation that’s based on identity and race, we knew it was going to resonate. Again, how could you ever write the Sam character going to get a loan without dealing with the reality of what happens when Black people try to get loans?

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The Falcon and the Winter Soldier's Malcolm Spellman Is Ready to Deliver an Undeniably Black Superhero Story

Malcolm Spellman is a name you’ll see over and over in 2021. The multitalented producer and writer is marking his Hollywood territory with a deluge of high profile projects due out this year.

tvline.com

Falcon and the Winter Soldier is due to launch in March, meaning that Spellman will soon embark on his largest-scaled outing yet. The adventure series follows the mismatched duo of Sam Wilson (played by Mackie) and Bucky Barnes (Stan) as they navigate a post-Endgame world without Steve Rogers’ Captain America. With Sam, who is Black, contemplating taking up Cap’s mantle, the series will delve into real issues surrounding identity, and race will be a key part of that story.

Spellman hopes the show will have a positive impact on Black youth, similar to how 2018’s Black Panther affected his nephew, who takes pride in wearing his T’challa costume every day.

“When you start to see the direct impact that a Black superhero had on my nephew, that’s branded on my brain,” Spellman notes. “I believe that Falcon and the Winter Soldier is a nice progression with the mantle that [Black Panther director Ryan] Coogler and Chadwick [Boseman] left us. I really do believe that these giant Black icons are necessary, not only for Black kids, but for white kids to start to absorb — our people as being big and heroic.”

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‘The Falcon and the Winter Soldier’ Is Marvel’s Latest Double Act

The new Disney+ series, starring Anthony Mackie and Sebastian Stan, uses its superheroes to examine a world still on edge after a global catastrophe.

www.nytimes.com

From Wilson’s perspective, Mackie said that moment “wasn’t an opportunity — it was a major burden.”

“It wasn’t a thing of him sitting back and waiting for the shield,” he continued. “He wasn’t looking for a promotion at work.”

Malcolm Spellman, who created “The Falcon and the Winter Soldier” for television and is its head writer, said that while Marvel’s concept for the series had always been “a buddy two-hander,” he had specifically wanted to model the show on genre films that dealt with issues of race, like “The Defiant Ones,” “48 Hrs.,” “Lethal Weapon” and “Rush Hour.”

Spellman, a writer and producer on shows like “Empire,” said that “what survived from the first day I walked in through the million different iterations of this project was the spirit and conflict of the two central characters.”

Barnes, a brainwashed combat veteran who has spent periods of his life in suspended animation, is “someone who is 100 years old and has done nothing but fight,” Spellman said, whereas Wilson has spent his career struggling with “the whole Black excellence thing — the concept of working twice as hard to get half as far.”

“If you want any honesty to them, you cannot avoid all the trauma that Bucky’s been through, and you cannot avoid the fact that Sam is Black,” said Spellman.

As it has with other projects, Marvel is being coy about plot specifics. But the makers of “The Falcon and the Winter Soldier” said the series would confront the same questions that the country has been asking itself in recent, turbulent months: Who is an American, and who gets to decide what principles the country stands for? What compels people to take extrem

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A lot of people have mentioned how they are a little less excited for this show because it seems less ambitious than Wandavision. I mainly wanted to collect & highlight a bunch of the interviews the FAWS showrunner has been doing this week, because they really start to paint a picture of the themes that they're attempting to tackle, and it sounds just as ambitious, but in a different way. Reviews will hit tomorrow and those will probably let us know if they hit their marks, but I also don't know if reviewers will have seen past the first episode.

I doubt the show will hit as hard as something like Watchmen, but it might be the closest Disney gets.

 

[Kalor]

Reading some of these interviews over the past few days has got me interested in the show in a way that I wasn't before. Wasn't expecting much prior but if they actually dive into these ideas properly, it could be really fascinating.

 

[Zebesian-X]

Appreciate the aggregation OP! I really hope the show delivers on this

 

[MadLaughter]

Reading some of these interviews over the past few days has got me interested in the show in a way that I wasn't before. Wasn't expecting much prior but if they actually dive into these ideas properly, it could be really fascinating.

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Same here. I hope they nail it.

 

[JDSN]

So hyped, I hope this means Sam as Cap in the movies and not just the TV show.

It sounds like that Sam: Cap América run but written by a competent PoC rather than some mediocre colorblind liberal white guy that always makes a point to mention how much he likes The Wire when he sees a black dude at a party.

 

[RedVejigante]

I was always kind of hoping that this series would be the way of introducing and tackling with some of the more difficult issues of race in the US through the lense of super-hero fiction, these quotes definitely leave me more hopeful.

 

[SilentRob]

I know I keep being rather open about my dislike for the US military in this forum but man, that first question hits all the notes for me in the worst possible way. US military leaders are not role models or someone to aspire to if you are not casually interested in waging illegal wars and taking part in war crimes.. But they are such a universally accepted shorthand for "Good guy who tries to do the right thing" thanks to government-funded Hollywood Propaganda that even a movement like Black Lives Matter and racial equality in general is being measured around that notion.

"Finally more people of colour are being used to give the US military some good PR and help recruit teens, truly exciting times."

 

[Godfather]

Sounds fascinating. Makes sense with some of the rumored characters as well.

 

[SDBurton]

If they follow through with what they’re saying and actually tackle these issues head on I’ll be satisfied.

 

[crimsonECHIDNA]

Had a feeling they would lean into it when it announced that John Walker would be a significant character. The fact that he's an Ultra Right-Wing asshole and being "America's Chosen Captain American" when Steve specifically gave Sam the nod to be his successor.

I'm praying to God they actually follow through and have Sam take up the mantle fully by the end. Don't chicken out like the comics did.

 

[Mekanos]

I know I keep being rather open about my dislike for the US military in this forum but man, that first question hits all the notes for me in the worst possible way. US military leaders are not role models or someone to aspire to if you are not casually interested in waging illegal wars and taking part in war crimes.. But they are such a universally accepted shorthand for "Good guy who tries to do the right thing" thanks to government-funded Hollywood Propaganda that even a movement like Black Lives Matter and racial equality in general is being measured around that notion.

"Finally more people of colour are being used to give the US military some good PR and help recruit teens, truly exciting times."

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Yeah that opening paragraph was a big eyeroll for me. I know Marvel properties are military propaganda but I hope the actual show doesn't lay it on that thick.

 

[jon bones]

Friday can't come soon enough, this is going to be so good.

Also excited for Fox News to whine about this like they did the comics run

 

[DragonSJG]

Yeah that opening paragraph was a big eyeroll for me. I know Marvel properties are military propaganda but I hope the actual show doesn't lay it on that thick.

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Can you elaborate? What examples are military propaganda? Is it just films?

 

[BringBackSonics]

Thanks for the post OP, I do like how you can take some characters that most people haven't really connected with..and get to dig really dip into them...we saw that with WandaVision, and it looks like it will continue here with Falcon and Winter Soldier.

 

[HStallion]

Can you elaborate? What examples are military propaganda? Is it just films?

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Michael Bay's movies are notorious for this.

 

[GringoSuave89]

I doubt the show will hit as hard as something like Watchmen, but it might be the closest Disney gets.

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I knew it was never going to reach that level, as much as I would have loved it, but the fact a Disney property is going to tackle this topic at all is still something I'm thankful for. When the show was announced I was a bit ambivalent but once the synopsis and whatnot became known, given the topic and subject matter we are getting, it's probably my most anticipated project. I'm hopeful we will get something with a lot of impact that will foster discussion.

 

[Mekanos]

Can you elaborate? What examples are military propaganda? Is it just films?

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Marvel productions collaborate with the Pentagon and Department Of Defense. That's not getting into Black Panther which the CIA was consulted with during its production as well.

 

[AuthenticM]

I am super excited for this show. More than I was for WandaVision.

 

[crimsonECHIDNA]

Marvel productions collaborate with the Pentagon and Department Of Defense. That's not getting into Black Panther which the CIA was consulted with during its production as well.

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I mean the reality is a lot of Big Blockbuster movies do.

 

[UnderTheKillingSun]

So I guess this basically confirms that the government won't allow Sam to be Captain America because he's black.

VERY interested to see how this show plays out.

 

[Mekanos]

I mean the reality is a lot of Big Blockbuster movies do.

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Yes, of course, lol.

I'm not saying if you enjoy Marvel movies you're enabling war crimes or whatever. I like Marvel and accept it for what it is. I just hope the actual show doesn't get too jingoistic based on that opening paragraph from the interview.

 

[crimsonECHIDNA]

Yes, of course, lol.

I'm not saying if you enjoy Marvel movies you're enabling war crimes or whatever. I like Marvel and accept it for what it is. I just hope the actual show doesn't get too jingoistic based on that opening paragraph from the interview.

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Yeah, I'm not trying to pull a whataboutism either. Just kind of the fucked up reality of these big Hollywood Blockbusters.

 

[NarohDethan]

Can you elaborate? What examples are military propaganda? Is it just films?

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Captain America himself was created as a military propaganda tool.

 

[SilentRob]

I mean the reality is a lot of Big Blockbuster movies do.

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That's kind of the point. It's universally accepted that Hollywood is a huge tool for US military propaganda and almost always directly works with them whenever they show any kind of military action. And that directly leads to questions and framings like the one in the OP.

 

[Blader]

Marvel productions collaborate with the Pentagon and Department Of Defense. That's not getting into Black Panther which the CIA was consulted with during its production as well.

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This is a little hyperbolic. Film and TV productions, not just Marvel's, will often collaborate with military, law enforcement, or intelligence agencies for consulting on basic stuff like equipment, how troops or agents would communicate with each other or deploy in a situation, how interrogations might be carried out, even the way a room should look (as the WandaVision production designer noted in the Assembled doc, the "war room" set for SWORD is an expanded version of the kind of real-life base the FBI might set up in a situation). Not to mention needing approval for use of stuff like aircraft, tanks, etc.

The author assets that in WandaVision specifically, the Pentagon had final script approval, which is pretty ridiculous to suggest. Kevin Feige and Disney execs have script approval. Creative contracts aren't drawn up with the Secretary of Defense. These productions don't live or die with the Pentagon's say so, and the article even notes The Avengers did not get a thumbs up from the Pentagon -- which didn't stop from the film getting made or become a huge success. It also notes the Pentagon approved Winter Soldier for its "positive portrayal of veterans," even though you'd think a movie based on the premise that a neo-Nazi conspiracy had embedded itself in the US government for decades and was masterminding much of our military and intelligence activities might not exactly make for the best kind of recruitment propaganda. It doesn't say anything about Civil War, but hard to imagine a movie that asserts Steve Rogers is in the right for again going rogue against not just the US government but the UN as well, because the political agendas of those bodies would undercut the ability for the Avengers to be independent good guys, would've gotten their stamp of approval either.

There is a dark history, particularly in the days of HUAC and the blacklist, of agencies like the FBI embedding themselves into Hollywood to ensure certain messages and stories were getting out, and others weren't. But this isn't exactly J. Edgar Hoover's FBI anymore.

Captain America himself was created as a military propaganda tool.

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Yes, but this was also an open part of the plot, not a fast one that Marvel is trying to pull over people.

 

[DragonSJG]

Marvel productions collaborate with the Pentagon and Department Of Defense. That's not getting into Black Panther which the CIA was consulted with during its production as well.

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OOF and yeah that opening quote is beyond dumb

 

[gogosox82]

Marvel productions collaborate with the Pentagon and Department Of Defense. That's not getting into Black Panther which the CIA was consulted with during its production as well.

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Just to add to this

Dod basically admitting they sign off on how the military is portrayed in movies.

 

[Joe]

I mean, if Marvel needs to shoot some B-roll of a couple jets and get rights to use a logo, and the trade-off is that a couple military bases get early access to seeing Iron Man 2, the worst Iron Man, that's not exactly a steep price to pay.

I guess we can never truly know if there was some insidious re-writing of the MCU over the course of the franchise that was done at the behest of military brass in order to whitewash US military hegemony, because we will never get print-outs of those conversations. But considering that the last movie to really feature the US military as a major force was The Winter Soldier, in which entire factions of the Military-Industrial Complex and US Government were subverted by a massive conspiracy of fascist sleeper agents trying to use the surveillance state to kill innocent people, and considering that Marvel has apparently been plenty willing to ignore the military feedback when they want to, I'm not super worried.

 

[The Kree]

I was already sold when they cast U.S. Agent, but go off.

 

[fanboy]

Holy shit Mackie is 3 years older than Evans? I guess they are going to give the shield to someone else in Phase 5 anyway :/

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Can you elaborate? What examples are military propaganda? Is it just films?

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Most if not every movie using military equipment or paraphernalia did so on loan from the military, as well as letting the military oversee how they are portray and "correct" any "inaccuracies"

 

[Colin Robinson]

When this series was first announced I was hoping and praying it would take cues from Nick Spencer's Sam Wilson: Captain America. Now every interview I read with this showrunner confirms that they weren't going to waste this opportunity. I'm really excited to see how far that they take it. I feel in a lot of ways that Marvel/Disney would be reluctant to be so blatant as to alienate half their audience. But I hope they go all in-show a Fox News facsimile with angry talking heads wanting to "Cancel" Sam for USAgent.

 

[Unfunny]

The author assets that in WandaVision specifically, the Pentagon had final script approval, which is pretty ridiculous to suggest.

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No it isn't. DoD will literally subsidize production costs if they get script approval. This is a known source of funding for big budget movies and is pretty common. Avengers was set to get that money too, but DoD would not approve the script bc it didnt meet their propaganda requirements. It would not at all be surprising if DoD approved subsequent scripts and provided that money. I don't know if that is true specifically to Wandavision. But it certainly is not ridiculous. Our entire system is built on using education and the media to control the bounds of acceptable discourse. This is just one small example.

 

[Blader]

No it isn't. DoD will literally subsidize production costs if they get script approval. This is a known source of funding for big budget movies and is pretty common. Avengers was set to get that money too, but DoD would not approve the script bc it didnt meet their propaganda requirements. It would not at all be surprising if DoD approved subsequent scripts and provided that money. I don't know if that is true specifically to Wandavision. But it certainly is not ridiculous. Our entire system is built on using education and the media to control the bounds of acceptable discourse. This is just one small example.

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They would provide something if they approve of the script, but the existence of the production doesn't hinge on that approval. Like you just said, Avengers didn't have that approval, and yet it exists. When you give script approval to a director, then the script has to go their way, or the movie doesn't happen (or at least doesn't happen with that director). I would not say that's the case with the military and Marvel movies, or very many movies in general. And I don't think Pentagon or FBI approval of a script means it's Frank Capra agitprop either. Again, Winter Soldier got that approval, but I wouldn't call that movie an especially flattering portrayal of the US government.

 

[Unfunny]

They would provide something if they approve of the script, but the existence of the production doesn't hinge on that approval. Like you just said, Avengers didn't have that approval, and yet it exists. When you give script approval to a director, then the script has to go their way, or the movie doesn't happen (or at least doesn't happen with that director). I would not say that's the case with the military and Marvel movies, or very many movies in general. And I don't think Pentagon or FBI approval of a script means it's Frank Capra agitprop either. Again, Winter Soldier got that approval, but I wouldn't call that movie an especially flattering portrayal of the US government.

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I would say the existence of such a process heavily incentivizes studios to make sure they will be approved for extra funding. I don't find the contents of MCU movies particularly problematic in that regard, but there is no doubt that DoD's involvement is something that we should be uncomfortable with on principle.

 

[Sean C.]

I guess we can never truly know if there was some insidious re-writing of the MCU over the course of the franchise that was done at the behest of military brass in order to whitewash US military hegemony, because we will never get print-outs of those conversations. But considering that the last movie to really feature the US military as a major force was The Winter Soldier, in which entire factions of the Military-Industrial Complex and US Government were subverted by a massive conspiracy of fascist sleeper agents trying to use the surveillance state to kill innocent people, and considering that Marvel has apparently been plenty willing to ignore the military feedback when they want to, I'm not super worried.

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Captain Marvel I would say featured pretty significant USAF presence (but that's appropriate for the character, who has always been a USAF officer in the comics).

 

[Blader]

I would say the existence of such a process heavily incentivizes studios to make sure they will be approved for extra funding. I don't find the contents of MCU movies particularly problematic in that regard, but there is no doubt that DoD's involvement is something that we should be uncomfortable with on principle.

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On principle I agree. I just think the particular case that that Guardian op-ed was making, of Marvel laundering pro-government propaganda through Iron Man and WandaVision, is way off base. Not that I'd say Marvel movies are some scathing indictment of the US government, but whenever some organ of the government (or any government) plays a role in these stories, it's almost always, if not literally always, in an antagonistic fashion.

 

[Tace]

I can’t wait. Hope they really dig into this stuff

 

[y2dvd]

Y'all are throwing around propaganda too loosely. Yes, Marvel collaborated with the military to be able to shoot certain scenes, but at no scenes did they promote joining the military or painting them as some saints, and I hate the military industrial complex.

 

[Mekanos]

Y'all are throwing around propaganda too loosely. Yes, Marvel collaborated with the military to be able to shoot certain scenes, but at no scenes did they promote joining the military or painting them as some saints, and I hate the military industrial complex.

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It's a pretty naive take to think propaganda only takes the form of soldiers saluting the flag and a booming voice telling you to join the army. It can be far more subtle than that. (Or not so subtle, in the case of Black Panther, where the CIA is the good guys.)


This is a good video about it. You can like Marvel while acknowledging the reality of its relationship to these apparatuses. (Also, they literally did partner with the military to advertise for it with Captain Marvel, as the video points out!)

 

[Mesoian]

Man I hope this show is good.

 

[MadLaughter]

Part of me wonders what they can do with Bucky that will be near as important as it sounds like the story they're telling about Sam.

 

[The Kree]

Part of me wonders what they can do with Bucky that will be near as important as it sounds like the story they're telling about Sam.

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I'm anticipating a scene where Zemo tries to use the code words to control Bucky but it doesn't work anymore and then Zemo shits his pants.

Beyond that, I dunno.

 

[timedesk]

Part of me wonders what they can do with Bucky that will be near as important as it sounds like the story they're telling about Sam.

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I think it's entirely likely that Bucky's story won't be as important as Sam's, but that doesn't mean it won't have value. It's possible they'll use Bucky's story of overcoming his conditioning as an allegory for recovering from trauma, or just general mental health. It's a bit messy, but could still be a positive story if done well.

 

[Arkeband]

I hope this helps flesh out both characters, because Falcon’s never been that interesting to me - he’s like Iron Man but with a crappier suit, and now is expected to be Cap but isn’t pumped full of superhuman juice. If they can somehow make all of that not matter because he has actually good writing for a change, that’ll be pretty great.

 

[makonero]

Holy shit Mackie is 3 years older than Evans? I guess they are going to give the shield to someone else in Phase 5 anyway :/

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America Chavez shows up in Dr. Strange 2...just sayin'

 

[jon bones]

Part of me wonders what they can do with Bucky that will be near as important as it sounds like the story they're telling about Sam.

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it doesn't have to be important in that sense, it can just be a good, sad character study of a broken friend

 

[fanboy]

America Chavez shows up in Dr. Strange 2...just sayin'

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This confirmed?

 

[makonero]

This confirmed?

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MCU America Chavez Confirmed For Doctor Strange 2

Doctor Strange 2 will introduce America Chavez.

screenrant.com

 

[Ithil]

Part of me wonders what they can do with Bucky that will be near as important as it sounds like the story they're telling about Sam.

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It doesn't have to be "important" to be meaningful as a story. As they point out, Bucky is 106 years old but hasn't "lived" in any time period since the 1940s, and spent all that time as a mind controlled killer. Even since we saw him in the films, he was a fugitive and then in Wakanda to be deprogrammed. That's a lot of story to dig into as far as him finding a place in the world.