How Persona 5 Royal Changed A Homophobic Scene (Spoilers: It's Still Bad)

Oct 30, 2017
1,023

The original scene:

Uncanny Voice: Oooh, a real huuuge catch, you say? I'm getting pumped too!

Scruffy Romantic: What a cutie! And so muscular too. I give you an 85 out of 100!

Ryuji: Gah! Wh-Who are you!?

Beefy Trendsetter: Gwahahaha! I'm the naughty troll of Shinjuku! I'm gonna eat you up!

Ryuji: H-Hey, wait... Lemme go!

Ryuji: Dude, help! You can hear me, can't you!?

Ryuji: You just gonna leave me here like this!? C'mon, your best friend's in trouble here!

Beefy Trendsetter: Hehehe, what an energetic studmuffin, I'll give you all the freebies you could ever desire!

Scruffy Romantic: The night is young, and so are you! Let's party it up!
The new scene:

Deep Voice: Ooh, you're right! He really WOULD be a natural! But, a graphic tee with plaid pants? Ugh, kill me now.

Ryuji: Whoa, who the hell are they!?

???: Oh, hell has nothing to do with it, honey. I'm Angel--straight out of heaven!

???: And I'm Julian. Julie, if you're feeling saucy!

Angel: What a cutie! You'd never guess he was into the drag scene... I say we show him the ropes!

Julian/Julie: You can't deny it! We saw you peeking into Crossroads! Well, sweetie, if you're curious, we'll help you look DIVINE!

Ryuji: Wait, hey, it's not like that--

Ryuji: Dude, help! Tell them we were just investigatin', or something!

Ryuji: You just gonna leave me here like this!? C'mon, your best friend's in trouble here!

Julian: Oh, honey, you've got the chutzpah. And those cheekbones--I LOVE it! That's what it takes to be a star!

Angel: Just follow my lead, stud! We're gonna put your name in lights! And I know just the dress for you...
Its definitely... better, but it still relies on harmful gay stereotypes to make an uncomfortable joke. I don't get why they went to the effort of entirely recontextualizing this scene when they just swapped some harmful stereotypes for different ones. :/
 

Weiss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,812
I'm kinda ignorant when it comes to crossdressing. So the idea is that the scene was changed so that the two guys want Ryuji to dress in drag?
 

DNAbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,352
I thought it was definitely drastically improved. I don’t actually feel insulted by it.
 

JCG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,226
It's definitely less bad, comparatively, so there was improvement, but yeah...still not a good look.

Kinda depressing that they apparently had to almost beg Atlus Japan to allow even this change.
 
May 17, 2018
1,303
I...don't get what's wrong with the second one?

Like, I absolutely understand why the original is problematic, but, can you explain the problem with the revision?
 

Beth Cyra

Member
Oct 26, 2017
207
Like it may be better as far as Gay stereotypes...

However it just feels like they threw the CrossDressing Drag Queens/Kings under the bus with them being so damn pushy.
 

CaviarMeths

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,236
Western Canada
There's not a whole lot Atlus USA could do to improve this scene without new animations, models, etc. They can't do that. This is probably more or less the best they could do with what they had available.

But like.

They could just... remove the scene. It literally exists for no reason other than to say "lol gays, amirite?"
 

Weiss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,812
Like it may be better as far as Gay stereotypes...

However it just feels like they threw the CrossDressing Drag Queens/Kings under the bus with them being so damn pushy.
Yeah the subtext changed from "gay men are pedophiles who prey on innocent straight boys" to "gay men are wacky crossdressers."

It's an improvement only if you're fine with crossdressing being played as something inherently odd again, like in P4.
 

Niosai

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,330
While not even close to perfect, this is still a huge improvement. I don't think it insults anyone specifically and it doesn't involve an assault.
 

Mudo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,403
Tennessee
Seems a lot better to me.
Still stereotypical but the original was harmful, creepy, and just made me feel bad.
I would rather have this new version by far.
I wasnt going to buy this but I think I will now. Reviews are glowing and Atlus USA has made some good changes.
 

Weebos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,460
It's a massive improvement, though I still think just cutting the scenes would be better.
 

Odeko

The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
10,057
Midwestern America
In the context of Atlus West not being able to change the models or animations at all, this is much much better than I was expecting.

I mean you try writing a scenario where two over-the-top stereotypically designed gay men approach a teenager and then he runs away.
 

Richter1887

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,047
So they went from predator gay to predator cross dressers?

Sigh...



How about... Just remove everything related to sexuality from the scenes?
 

Neoxon

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,641
Houston, TX
I wish they could’ve done more, but it’s clear that they did all they could, so I’ll give credit where it’s due.

Still not great, though.
 

TheMrPliskin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,288
It's an improvement but given that the original scene painted gay people as predatory pedophiles that's not actually saying much.
 

Memento

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,538
It is much better now since it is not about 2 gay guys being fucking pedos

But yeah, it is still uses stereotypes to make fun of gay people
 

Richter1887

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,047
I disagree that it's predatory. It went from two men creepily hitting on an underage boy to what simply amounts to a misunderstanding.

Definitely plays to stereotypes, but it's not predatory.
What about the one on the beach which is after the fact?

Surely someone saying no and trying to run would be obvious enough of a sign that they are not comfortable with it?
 

Oreiller

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,409
yeah, it's much better. It's still far from perfect of course but I don't know if they could have done better considering the original scene.
 

Beth Cyra

Member
Oct 26, 2017
207
Yeaaaaaah that's the bit I don't like. Instead of " Dude, help! Tell them we were just investigatin', or something!" maybe a "I'll play along, you find the clues" or something!
Indeed.

If there wasn’t three lines in a row of Ryuji showing how clearly uncomfortable they are it would be one thing.

However they are indeed there only to be followed by the two individuals completely ignoring it and still pushing their thoughts/opinions about what dress would look good on him

I won’t say this isn’t better, but it’s better in the context of Gay men not being monsters. It still shits all over an entire community and puts them on blast.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,533
The only really good thing they could have done would be to remove the scene entirely. Just have the game skip that portion entirely.
 

Zexyen

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,327
Meh. I would've preferred they just straight up remove it.

What about the beach scene though, that's the one that was also completely fucked.
 

convo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,076
At least there's an effort but the western branch can only do so much with the writting if the actual devs aren't going to do anything about backing that stuff in and localizers putting on a band aid on stuff.
Atlus being in isolation like that isn't going to change for the better but that has become a tiresome topic.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
5,629
it is a bit stereotypey, especially if they remain the only gay men in the game, but at least they aren't predators

There's only so much they could do when Atlus USA could only edit the text itself, presumably. Those animations don't exactly lend themselves well to subtlety.
 

Richter1887

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,047
The only really good thing they could have done would be to remove the scene entirely. Just have the game skip that portion entirely.
Another thing they could do if the scene is that hard to remove (which I doubt), is just change everything said in the scene. Turn both of them into reporters or something that are trying report on delinquents or something as an example. Atleast then nothing sexual would be said and no one is thrown under the bus.
 

fundogmo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
489
That revision is hardly worth picking up a pitchforks for.

It's the beach scene is the really dicey scene with those two characters, and Atlus USA might have to make due with being tied to the animation that goes with the scene. I don't envy their jobs, but I'm curious what they'll do.
 
May 13, 2019
1,355

Poltergust

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,419
Orlando, FL
What about the one on the beach which is after the fact?

Surely someone saying no and trying to run would be obvious enough of a sign that they are not comfortable with it?
Watching it now, it just seems that those are still under the impression that Ryuji is into drag.

Like, I know these scenes are still problematic, but even with the beach scene at least the two men are coming off as more trying to help Ryuji (as much as they are missing the mark on that) rather than preying on him.
 

exstuhsey

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Dec 7, 2019
59
User Banned (Permanent): Dismissing concerns of homophobia, trolling, a history of similar infractions
Couldn't care less tbh, can't wait to experience the game with all these new stuff added.
 

Richter1887

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,047
Bold of you to assume that Atlus USA has power to actually edit the work to such degree.
So I guess people should be happy and not complain? It is still offensive anyway.
Watching it now, it just seems that those are still under the impression that Ryuji is into drag.

Like, I know these scenes are still problematic, but even with the beach scene at least the two men are coming off as more trying to help Ryuji (as much as they are missing the mark on that) rather than preying on him.
Help? It doesn't really work that way.

When someone is trying to run away while screaming no, even a dense person knows that the victim isn't comfortable. The two characters are still predators even if they are some how blind to the fact someone is being sexually harassed.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,088
Well I suppose it's technically improved to go from one harmful stereotype to another slightly less harmful stereotype.
It's so disappointing that Persona is the Atlus series which is most successful by far when the Persona studio seems rotten to its core (they're also responsible for Catherine and Tokyo Mirage Sessions, right?)
How about... Just remove everything related to sexuality from the scenes?
Persona 5 has ceased to exist.
…probably. I'm not touching that shit.
 

Poltergust

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,419
Orlando, FL
Help? It doesn't really work that way.

When someone is trying to run away while screaming no, even a dense person knows that the victim isn't comfortable. The two characters are still predators even if they are some how blind to the fact someone is being sexually harassed.
I'm not into drag (like, at all) but why are you making the connection between that and sexual harassment? If those two men were trying to get Ryuji into any other activity that he doesn't want to do, like say karaoke or water polo, and Ryuji acts the same way, would that be considered sexual harassment?

I dunno, the equivocation of the two that you're doing here kinda rubs me the wrong way. Drag is not innately tied to sex, which is why you can drag queens be role models to children and such.